Waffle House Shooting (Good Guy Wins)

[BluesStringer]

I wasn't going to override ignore to read this, but since shadow quoted it, my reasons for not reading it were just confirmed. You should have thanked me for linking to your first post Treo, since you lied about what you said and couldn't be bothered to go back and find it for yourself. Now to re-post it and highlight the fact that you completely and without equivocation signed onto Rich's post, even after having admitted that shadow had no other choice than to act as he did, is strange to say the least. Whatever.

Unless no other option is open to me I’m not going to start a gunfight w/ the robber, I’ve never taken any other position in this thread or on this board ever.

You have already admitted that shadow had no other choice, so why are you repeating the same ignorant tripe as you did when even the press reports weren't reliable? Who cares what you'd do in a situation that has no relationship whatsoever to the facts of this case?

My gun is strictly a defensive weapon;

Bull$hit - It's a paper-weight. You obviously don't have the powers of discernment to know when it's appropriate and/or necessary to draw your weapon, so it's nothing more than a security blanket for people like you. For the life of me, I can't figure out why people like you and Rich even carry guns.

But this is just so much brainless blather I can hardly stand it:

I do not carry to bring evil doers to justice and the fact that some of you seem to think the mere fact that you have a permit and a gun obligates you to engage the robber scares the Hell out of me. Your CHP does not make you a super hero you are not the guardian of society. After reading some of your posts I really, really, believe that some of you strap up every day praying to God for a chance to be a hero.

While it doesn't surprise me in the least that words typed into an internet forum by strangers living hundreds, even thousands of miles away from you, "scares the Hell out of" you, I challenge you to cite one post where anyone said anything close to the equivalent of praying to God for "the chance" to get into a gunfight. One post you pusillanimous poltroon. Good luck with that. You made up what you said in your first post, and now you're making stuff up about what the rest of us have said, which is just stupid as Hell because anyone can read and see if you're truthful or a blatant liar. I'm going with the latter.

I want no part of it. I said it before and I’ll say it again; if you get your ass shot off playing boy wonder Waffle House is going to disavow your actions (and any fiduciary responsibility) so fast you won’t know what hit you.

Ahh, so the subsequent corporate response to your defending your life with a gun on a corporation's property is what dictates whether or not the use of the gun is justified? Does that about cover it? The venue is irrelevant. If you're legally justified to pull the trigger because your life (or in the case of literally every CC'er I associate with, the lives of others) is being threatened, you act and let the chips fall where they may. I have no idea what "fiduciary responsibility" any reasonable CC'er would expect from Waffle House or any other corporate entity. As far as the Sheriff and DA were concerned, Mr. Harrison made a righteous shoot. Every round he fired was judged to be justified in defense of life, not of corporate interests. He can answer for himself, but if it were me under the same circumstances, I couldn't care less what Waffle House thought of my actions. I wouldn't have done it because I expected recognition or reward, or even paying for legal bills if they arise, I would've fired only because mine or others' lives were being threatened. What possible "fiduciary responsibility" would any corporation have to me for defending my own life? Good grief, your posts just get more and more insipid, which I would've said was impossible after your second one in this thread if I wasn't seeing it with my own eyes!

I never said I’d run out during the robbery (I’m a coward remember? Why draw attention to myself?) What I said was afterwards if I can get out that back door w/out interacting w/ the police I’m on it like Jillian Michaels on a fat chick.

A distinction without a difference. Inaction while you're there, and avoidance of any and all civic duty after it's over. What a freakin' pu$$y.

Maybe there’s a weakness in my breeding

Ahh, finally, something we can agree on.

And if Blue String (or anyone else) thinks less of me because of that, I’m Ok w/ it.

I could not think any less of you, you yellow-bellied flagitious miscreant.

FWIW here is my OP

And the one where I said I'd slip out the back door

And then you draw attention to exactly what proves the validity of my last sentence. Unreal.

Blues

 

[Scouse]

When this kind of post (a real life incident) is shown, and the facts are seen as being correct, actual Newspaper Story, each individual who posts, me, you, whoever, says/types, their thoughts, knowing themselves, and knowing how you have reacted in the past, to physical threat.

If I was in that Waffle House, my Wife would be with me, the instant a man with a gun waved it in my Wife's direction, standing still (He was) I would have shot him in the nose.

No hesitation, no thought of right/wrong/legal anything. My Wife's well being is more important than mine.

In fact, our first trip to Florida together, by road, involved a hassle, in a Waffle House, just off the I75 below Atlanta, in Georgia, over 15 years ago.
Again, perceived as a possible physical threat, to my Wife.

 

[Treo]

I’m not sure why I am continuing to try to have this discussion but I feel that either I’m not being understood or that words are being put into my mouth in the interest of stirring up strife, which seems to be the main pastime on this forum.

There are a couple of points I’d really like to make, the first being that there are two different situations being discussed here. In ninety nine out of one hundred incidents the robber will get his money and leave the store w/out firing a shot; this is a statistical fact and you can check it w/ the DOJ. Based on those statistics, unless I am directly threatened or the robber does something to make me believe that I am in the one hundredth scenario I’m willing to play the odds and let the guy get his money and go. No, I do not agree that my permit obligates me to intervene and “send a message” to the bad guys that this type of thing won’t be tolerated. That is not why I carry a gun. Yes, if possible, I will leave w/out giving a statement. I don’t believe that my statement is going to have any bearing on the case anyway so why bother? (Another statistical fact 86% of criminals plea out before their case ever reaches trial) FWIW I gave statement once and what I mentioned in my other post is exactly what happened I lost a day’s pay and sat on my ass in the courthouse for three hours until a deputy DA came and told us all that the case had been vacated (the defendant copped plea) and we could leave. Again, why bother?

In the scenario mentioned here a couple of things would be different for me. First, I would not be sitting by the cash register w/ my back to the door I’d be in the back, near an exit and in a booth. I’d also be w/ my wife but irrespective I don’t give a duck fart about Waffle House’s rule about sitting at the counter if you’re alone I’m not doing it.

Before I go any farther, if I hadn’t made myself completely clear on this point, let me state for the record that I don’t believe that sniping shadow is who he says he is. He seems entirely too willing to brag about the incident and he seems entirely too excited by the whole thing. I could be wrong; maybe English Comp isn’t his strong point. Maybe I’m reading more than is there in to his posts and if I am I apologize.

Having said that, if I take his story at face value, by the time he started firing the robbers had already done several things that were precursors to being the one hundredth case. Hence, my comment that as presented the person who was in the Waffle House didn’t have a whole lot of options and was probably correct in opening fire.

So, two different possible cases, the (statistically) most likely being no shots fired two different responses.
If that isn’t clear to the read nothing else I say will be either

 

[rrman12280]

I have reason to believe, other than any of the posts, that he is who he claims to be.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I will make this real clear for some that are a little hard headed and have never been in a situation like mine. You say that you "Aren't going to start a firefight especially when outnumbered." Already i can confirm that that is the wrong tactic. You may not know this but the police has no obligation to protect you. Its been settled and confirmed in the courts. Another thing to remember and put im perspective is that they have back-up, rules of engagement, and ballistic vests. Now to the first part of your rant... When a guy or multiple guys walk into an enclosed space where you are in with a gun your life is threatened and their actions FORCED you to pull the trigger. Yes permits are for DEFENSE only. The defense of one's self and others if you have half a brain and heart and compassion for your fellow man. I do have something that irritates me about that part because they chose the life of a sheep and I shouldnt have to protect others. But, being the considerate person I am then yes, when I have the means to stop a potential deadly situation I feel obligated and will ignore my personal safety for the well-being of the group and that act of love for fellow living human beings and unselfishness is what makes a hero. Ok now that we got the defensive part out of the way back to the theoretical situation you had given earlier. Multiple guys. Doesnt really matter how many and they all have guns. With a concealed weapon you have the element of surprise and that is what will enable you to survive. 3 guys with guns walk in you draw and you shoot all three of them in the back when they are lined up and you live and so do all the customers in the store if you dont end up missing. Now lets take your method. You sit and wait the robbery is going good they got the money and are all the way on the other side of the restaurant when they didnt get as much as they want so they begin shooting and they will be looking at everybody. Your element of surprise is gone and if you draw you are dead and if you dont you are executed. Great job there selfish non hero! That was my whole purpose to come on here. Element of surprise is your key to survival. After i drew i came up firing and he was dead before even having the chance to think "oh s***." Shoot first and live to be able to ask the questions later. Your best defense, sometimes, is to go on the offensive and strike first. Let the lawyers settle it. Action is always greater than reaction. Also, yes you are obligated to sit and wait for the police. It's called leaving the scene of a crime... I will end this with saying you train and prepare for the worst. If you dont have the confidence to take on multiple targets then you need to lay the gun down. You are gunna hesitate and when you do people are going to die. Also just because you decide to carry a gun doesnt mean its going to automatically give you the power to protect yourself. Get out and practice practice practice. With some of these comments i hear about its a bad choice to shoot in a crowded waffle house then, to me, that is saying A LOT about your confidence of your own shooting ability.

-shadow

I'm curious, did they notice you when they came in? or did they immediately go for other people?

 

[SGB]

I’m not sure why I am continuing to try to have this discussion but I feel that either I’m not being understood or that words are being put into my mouth in the interest of stirring up strife, which seems to be the main pastime on this forum.

There are a couple of points I’d really like to make, the first being that there are two different situations being discussed here. In ninety nine out of one hundred incidents the robber will get his money and leave the store w/out firing a shot; this is a statistical fact and you can check it w/ the DOJ. Based on those statistics, unless I am directly threatened or the robber does something to make me believe that I am in the one hundredth scenario I’m willing to play the odds and let the guy get his money and go. No, I do not agree that my permit obligates me to intervene and “send a message” to the bad guys that this type of thing won’t be tolerated. That is not why I carry a gun. Yes, if possible, I will leave w/out giving a statement. I don’t believe that my statement is going to have any bearing on the case anyway so why bother? (Another statistical fact 86% of criminals plea out before their case ever reaches trial) FWIW I gave statement once and what I mentioned in my other post is exactly what happened I lost a day’s pay and sat on my ass in the courthouse for three hours until a deputy DA came and told us all that the case had been vacated (the defendant copped plea) and we could leave. Again, why bother?

In the scenario mentioned here a couple of things would be different for me. First, I would not be sitting by the cash register w/ my back to the door I’d be in the back, near an exit and in a booth. I’d also be w/ my wife but irrespective I don’t give a duck fart about Waffle House’s rule about sitting at the counter if you’re alone I’m not doing it.

Before I go any farther, if I hadn’t made myself completely clear on this point, let me state for the record that I don’t believe that sniping shadow is who he says he is. He seems entirely too willing to brag about the incident and he seems entirely too excited by the whole thing. I could be wrong; maybe English Comp isn’t his strong point. Maybe I’m reading more than is there in to his posts and if I am I apologize.

Having said that, if I take his story at face value, by the time he started firing the robbers had already done several things that were precursors to being the one hundredth case. Hence, my comment that as presented the person who was in the Waffle House didn’t have a whole lot of options and was probably correct in opening fire.

So, two different possible cases, the (statistically) most likely being no shots fired two different responses.
If that isn’t clear to the read nothing else I say will be either

Don't care

... "All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing" ... and your position very clear ... let evil have what it wants.

 

[Treo]

I have reason to believe, other than any of the posts, that he is who he claims to be.

As I said if I am wrong I appologize

 

[Treo]

and your position very clear ... let evil have what it wants.

I think that’s a deliberate gross oversimplification of my point but OK.

I think 3 years ago there was a thread on THR about a Burger King robbery that got a lot of attention. I don’t remember all the details but I do remember it happened in the afternoon the store was crowded and the bad guy really hadn’t done anything to make anyone believe it was anything other than a take the money and run scenario.

The permit holder stepped in and ordered the robber to put his gun down. Long story short the permit holder got his ass shot off.

The permit holder’s injuries were reported as upper right arm and shoulder, upper right ribs and RLQ of the abdomen. It was also reported that he spent about 3 weeks as an inpatient at Jackson Memorial I worked as an admissions supervisor in a hospital in Co Springs in the mid 90s back then we charged 1400$ a day for an inpatient stay, that’s just the food and the bed. So I’m willing to bet this guy’s stay cost over 20K not including specialized care, MRIs , CAT scans, XRAYS, surgery, PT pain meds, follow up visits or after care. It also doesn’t include the likelihood that guy is still under the care of a PM&R doc.

I would be willing to bet that the permit holder incurred better than 75K in medical expenses for playing hero and I’ll also bet BK didn’t lift a finger to help defray that.

I also don’t know what this guy does for a living (god forbid he’s a mechanic) but I bet he doesn’t do it as well as he used to.

So, where I’m at now 75K would be almost 3 years pay, it would also be more debt than I’m able to pay off in my life time so my, as well as my family’s standard of living is lowered by that much and our standard of living is lowered further by my decreased earnings potential.

If you feel that I’m a coward because I’m not willing to risk that, especially when there's a 99% chance that the robbery will end w/ no shots fired, to defend the till at Burger King I’m OK with that

Here is a link to the thread Link Removed

 

[fudo]

A distinction without a difference. Inaction while you're there, and avoidance of any and all civic duty after it's over. What a freakin' pu$$y.

Looks that way to me too. If your goal is a 0 footprint on earth, this tactic makes sense, but I do feel that if you don't want to live in a trashy area, we all have to help pick up the trash. I will always defend myself and family first, but I will give aid to other citizens, if I can, because we are all better off together than we will be on our own.

Ahh, finally, something we can agree on.



I could not think any less of you, you yellow-bellied flagitious miscreant.

Blues

I could not think any less of you, you yellow-bellied flagitious miscreant.
Now that right there is funny

 

[Scouse]

When you fire a shot from a 9mm pistol, on a range, an indoor range,
the sound is quite loud,even with ear muffs on.

The sound in a Waffle house, no muffs.....VERY Loud, the criminal who
was shot, head shot, would not be part of the threat, nine times out
of ten, the other two have fled the scene.

The exit doors open out, they would bash through it, gone. The whole
place would be a mad house.

People who assume they would have these long complicated thought
patterns? Have never been in a fight in a crowded public place.
Especially when you instigate said fight!

 

[Treo]

anyway i'm done w/ this one y'all have fun thumping your chests

 

[radartech]

Let me say I have had my doubts about the truthfulness of the real identity of snipingshadow...
But I am 100% sure he is who he says he is now...

Soon enough,schedules permitting, I will take him to dinner and to the range ..
But treo there are many things you can never be sure of in this life..

But I am sure that if you are ever in a situation life he was, you and many around you will be dead..

There I said it..I'm sure it may not have been said so point blank... But oh well....

Good luck with life and I hope your paperweight doesn't burr your saddle too much.....

 

[Scouse]

You are behind the muzzle blast, hence no ringing I think, plus lots of meaty bodys to soak up the bang?

But, the slow motion, that is typical, even happens to the spoken word.

Truth is stranger than fiction comes to mind! Good luck.

 

[radartech]

You are behind the muzzle blast, hence no ringing I think, plus lots of meaty bodys to soak up the bang?

But, the slow motion, that is typical, even happens to the spoken word.

Truth is stranger than fiction comes to mind! Good luck.

The muzzle blast was there... during times of duress, the mind tunnels you to certain things only..

During a USPSA match I have literally never noticed the reports around...
As a young Marine.. we trained and studied to understand the effects of war and the surroundings..
The things that would occur, and things to reduce the impact on us. the old saying : Knowing is half the battle.. Is VERY true... IMHO--- the fog of war.. is present in EVERY self defense situation.
Tunnel vision is also present... and it is not just vision.. but other senses too... That is why a hot situation is rarely good as a single person.. even a Sniper team is a two body team (I didn't say man cause today I think we are getting close to having women snipers)

while it has been some 12-15 years since I last looked at those study guides.. I doubt too many things have changed..
You will still have the fog of war, the loss of situational knowledge and time will still slow.

Many of these elements have found their way into society as a whole as far as training and preparing for the worst..
An example is IDPA and USPSA and lots of NRA defense courses....
When you step up to firing line and the RO starts the timer.. Time slows for you... you may lose focus and not even hear of have focus on the weapon's report.. Yes you know it happens,, you know it cycles. but it may not be the same as plunking...


anyway... just a few random thoughts.....



Most likely SS's mind blanked the sound of the weapons report.While he may have looked calm, acted calm and even reacted in a calm manner... his brain sought to protect him...
The muscle memory of a well practiced hand, did what was needed.
His hearing knew what was coming and the brain did not process it.

 

[Firefighterchen]

You are behind the muzzle blast, hence no ringing I think, plus lots of meaty bodys to soak up the bang?

But, the slow motion, that is typical, even happens to the spoken word.

Truth is stranger than fiction comes to mind! Good luck.

The muzzle blast was there... during times of duress, the mind tunnels you to certain things only..

During a USPSA match I have literally never noticed the reports around...
As a young Marine.. we trained and studied to understand the effects of war and the surroundings..
The things that would occur, and things to reduce the impact on us. the old saying : Knowing is half the battle.. Is VERY true... IMHO--- the fog of war.. is present in EVERY self defense situation.
Tunnel vision is also present... and it is not just vision.. but other senses too... That is why a hot situation is rarely good as a single person.. even a Sniper team is a two body team (I didn't say man cause today I think we are getting close to having women snipers)

while it has been some 12-15 years since I last looked at those study guides.. I doubt too many things have changed..
You will still have the fog of war, the loss of situational knowledge and time will still slow.

Many of these elements have found their way into society as a whole as far as training and preparing for the worst..
An example is IDPA and USPSA and lots of NRA defense courses....
When you step up to firing line and the RO starts the timer.. Time slows for you... you may lose focus and not even hear of have focus on the weapon's report.. Yes you know it happens,, you know it cycles. but it may not be the same as plunking...


anyway... just a few random thoughts.....



Most likely SS's mind blanked the sound of the weapons report.While he may have looked calm, acted calm and even reacted in a calm manner... his brain sought to protect him...
The muscle memory of a well practiced hand, did what was needed.
His hearing knew what was coming and the brain did not process it.

I believe you are taking about auditory exclusion. Even though your body mutes the sounds the damage still occurs. Why I believe in suppressors for home defense.

 

[SGT504MP]

Is this the video from this incident?

.

 

[BluesStringer]

Is this the video from this incident?

That's an interesting video, but it can't be the events of the subject of this thread as it's a pizzeria and an off-duty cop doing the shooting. The events being discussed here took place in a Waffle House and Mr. Harrison has said he's a welder, not a cop.

Blues

ETA: Which reminds me of a question I wanted to ask snipingshadow anyway: Has your Sheriff indicated whether or not the surveillance video will be released? Maybe after the trial of the guy that got out of there alive? Would you want it released, or have any objection to it being released? Also curious how much pressure you've had from the media to give an interview. Of all the decisions you made that night, the decision to not talk to media is among the best in my estimation.

 

[rrman12280]

Is this the video from this incident?

That interior in the video is not of any waffle house that I've ever seen. All Waffle Houses that I know look similar inside. Obviously that is not the video based on this and what Blues said.

 

[snipingshadow]

He never mentioned it. The prosecutor had a copy of it on dvd so i wouldnt doubt it getting "leaked." From what i and others have seen you really cant tell anything. The police actually got onto them about cleaning their cameras because of all the crap on them from smokers. The video is made by multiple still picture shots and the quality is horrible. One picture im just sitting there and by the next im standing and the guy is on the ground. I wouldnt mind it being released especially for cwp educational purposes as it can do nothing more than confirm my side of the story. The sheriff made it clear to the media that I didnt want to talk so i only got one call from the newspaper asking for a statement and if i didnt want to give one then dont even bother calling her back. I left town about 4 days later and stayed gone for 3 weeks so i never seen any reporters trying to stalk me. Im not a very sympathetic person when it comes to violent criminals and i'll tell them real quick that i dont feel sorry for the family, friends, or thug. All of them are to blame for his actions. I would also tell them that I have came to the conclusion that racism is still rampant in the south. Just look at the color of the people trying to defend this "good boy" and trying to call all the people sticking up for their rights as racists and saying i'm going to hell. My reply is they spend all day long in church on sunday yet they really dont know their Bible. What do they teach in there?! So, yes, I agree that my smartest move was to not talk to the media as i dont sugar coat anything i say.

 

[Firefighterchen]

No, they really didnt notice me. When they came in both stood right behind me and i saw a black bag inches away from my shoulder and i just turn my head back around and start eating the rest of my chicken sandwich and when i didnt move when they so politely asked everybody to they started walking over to my left and robbing the people who did. I had a red bandanna on at the time so i know they saw me but i guess they thought i was probably just a thug like them. I waited til my movements would be covered by the bar so the kid never knew what was coming.

A lot of people assume those that open carry would be chosen first in a violent crime like this one. Hard to say what would have happened if you were open carrying...I was just wondering if you believe the criminals were paying close enough attention to notice if anyone might have been carrying. When they rushed in, would they have even noticed if a police officer was sitting in a booth?

From your POV...how observant were they? How rushed were they? How organized/disorganized were they?

I don't intent for this to sidetrack into oc vs cc. But I want those aspects best answered for future reference.