Waffle House Shooting (Good Guy Wins)

[jhodge83]

A lot of people assume those that open carry would be chosen first in a violent crime like this one. Hard to say what would have happened if you were open carrying...I was just wondering if you believe the criminals were paying close enough attention to notice if anyone might have been carrying. When they rushed in, would they have even noticed if a police officer was sitting in a booth?

From your POV...how observant were they? How rushed were they? How organized/disorganized were they?

I don't intent for this to sidetrack into oc vs cc. But I want those aspects best answered for future reference.

OC could have caused him to be the first one w/ a gun to his head, if they saw it before he realized their intentions.

 

[SGB]

OC could have caused him to be the first one w/ a gun to his head, if they saw it before he realized their intentions.

Or they could have turned around and left not wanting to face an armed victim.

 

[Punch]

A citizen defending himself? How was he defending himself? He only needed to defend himself because he decided to get involved. So many things can go wrong that sometimes it's best not to get involved. What if the BG sees your gun, opens fire in your direction, and hits innocent bystanders? What if he kills you? I would certainly be in a civill suit in my neck of the woods for shooting this guy. You need to think long and hard about these scenarios before leaving the house with a firearm.

First I was thinking "WTF". Then I looked at the location of the poster and hit my internal "ignore" switch.

 

[NavyLCDR]

OC could have caused him to be the first one w/ a gun to his head, if they saw it before he realized their intentions.

Or they could have turned around and left not wanting to face an armed victim.

Which one of those scenarios has been verified to happen in real life?

 

[Firefighterchen]

OC could have caused him to be the first one w/ a gun to his head, if they saw it before he realized their intentions.

Or they could have turned around and left not wanting to face an armed victim.

Which one of those scenarios has been verified to happen in real life?

I have not read to date any story that relates to jHodge.

I have read stories of sgb's scenario.

I didn't want this to turn into OC vs cc...so thanks Hodge...I was asking for the OP to shed more light on the criminals observation characteristics.

 

[radartech]

I believe you are taking about auditory exclusion. Even though your body mutes the sounds the damage still occurs. Why I believe in suppressors for home defense.

Thank you.... That was the term that eluded my travel weary mind...

 

[Firefighterchen]

A lot of people assume those that open carry would be chosen first in a violent crime like this one. Hard to say what would have happened if you were open carrying...I was just wondering if you believe the criminals were paying close enough attention to notice if anyone might have been carrying. When they rushed in, would they have even noticed if a police officer was sitting in a booth?

From your POV...how observant were they? How rushed were they? How organized/disorganized were they?

I don't intent for this to sidetrack into oc vs cc. But I want those aspects best answered for future reference.

If i was open carrying then no doubt i would have been the first one they saw and would have had a gun pointed at me before i could even react if not just to take my gun and shoot me with it. Your best bet is to conceal and catch them by surprise because if you strike first your chances of survival are far better. They were somewhat organized and disorganized. Yes they would have seen an officer if he was in uniform as one went to search the bathrooms and the other went to search for the head waitress. They cut the phone line before rushing in but if you really want to establish dominance you come in and you kill someone off the start so that nobody questions your authority. I would speculate that most armed robberies are directly correlated to drug use. With that being said you cant predict what any of these animals are thinking or going to do. They came in like it was a game. Almost like chanting the words you know what time it is mothafuckas ya yah get down get down if you move you're gunna die in a very cocky fashion. They ordered people on the ground and shuffled the sheep to one side of the restaurant but turned their backs to me and started robbing the other people after i didnt panic and comply. They unknowingly just majorly stacked the odds in my favor. Only 3 guys at chest level so shooting and hitting a civilian was not a worry at all. All of this took about a minute and a half. My POV is flawed as when you are stuck in this type of incident then its like time slows. Also, the only time i really looked at them is when i drew and watched the guy get done robbing the ppl and turned in my direction then after i stood up all i seen was his chest. I heard a few pops but not the loud reports like on the range and i heard a specific girl's scream. I do know for a fact that the guy with the gun was taking his sweet time. The other guy only crossed my field of view to go get the waitress but i never focused in on him. I would say they would have probably been out in about 3 minutes if i wouldnt have been there or would have complied with what they wanted. If they were halfway smart, but lets face it they are criminals, then my actions should have signaled that messing with me was bad news. Kinda like that quiet kid that sits in the back corner and never messes with anybody. But my personal opinion is that I am not gambling with my life. Open carrying is asking for trouble. Yes it might keep it from happening but what if it doesn't or they are on drugs and cocky-like and decide they are gunna come in anyway and they are going to shoot at the guy with the gun first. That puts you having to react instead of acting. If you are reacting you dont have control of the situation. Keep it hidden and give yourself a few extra seconds to think of a tactic and then execute without second guessing but most importantly buy you some extra time to live and at least be given the chance to fight back. Again this is just my opinion and do what you think will serve you best.

I'm not going to go into the aspect of concealing for "surprise" or open carrying for "deterrence"...I want to focus on the aspect of how observant they were. Why do you feel they left you alone after you did not comply? In the end it played in your favor, allowing you the time to draw...but it's just interesting they left the one guy alone that did not listen to them. Like you said, I would think it would draw their focus more onto you as a potential problem, and I'm glad it did not end up that way, but it makes me feel like their were not observant at all.

On another note...did the two bad guys come in and check the place out before they brought the guns in? Did they ever speak to you directly, or did they stay in generalized commands for everyone?

 

[jhodge83]

I have not read to date any story that relates to jHodge.

I have read stories of sgb's scenario.

I didn't want this to turn into OC vs cc...so thanks Hodge...I was asking for the OP to shed more light on the criminals observation characteristics.

if a robbery/mugging/etc didnt occur due to open carrying, how would you know? billy badass got on a forum spouting about how he stopped a crime from being committed due to it? how would legitimate stories come about?

how about these two? They are not both on robberies, but both show where OC actually put the person in danger...

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[NavyLCDR]

if a robbery/mugging/etc didnt occur due to open carrying, how would you know? billy badass got on a forum spouting about how he stopped a crime from being committed due to it? how would legitimate stories come about?

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Captain Jerry Quan, the Commander for Precinct One, where the Wafflehouse is located, confirmed Matt Brannan's story as one in which the open display of a pistol deterred a well armed robbery crew.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to prove the number of times a criminal cases a prospective target, has an "Oh Crap" moment because something, such as the presence of resistive firepower, causes them to move on to the next target.

The majority of criminals interviewed have said they look for the easiest targets, and the easiest targets are definitely not those where guns are known to be present and ready for use.

 

[jhodge83]

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Unfortunately, it's difficult to prove the number of times a criminal cases a prospective target, has an "Oh Crap" moment because something, such as the presence of resistive firepower, causes them to move on to the next target.

The majority of criminals interviewed have said they look for the easiest targets, and the easiest targets are definitely not those where guns are known to be present and ready for use.

i can see that happening. that actually makes sense.

do you chose to completely ignore the two that Ocing put those individuals in direct harm due to it?

 

[NavyLCDR]

i can see that happening. that actually makes sense.

do you chose to completely ignore the two that Ocing put those individuals in direct harm due to it?

You posted two stories. One from 2006, which later proved to be a completely false report and didn't even happen.

Two incidents in 5 years, one falsely reported.

Page 12 of:
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdf

Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.

Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because
they fear being shot.

Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following:
• 74% of felons agreed that, "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed
victim than they are about running into the police."

There are no absolutes in life. Only odds. The odds are in favor of the criminal not attacking a person/place known to be armed. Why would they? 99% of the population does not visibly carry a gun. Why would the criminal choose the 1% of targets that are known to be able to shoot them to attack when there is equal gain to be had from the other 99% of targets not known to be able to shoot them?

Odds are in my favor that criminal will just move on. If they don't move on it's because: 1. They didn't see the gun, so I still have the "element of surprise". 2. They don't care, and in that case open or concealed carry doesn't matter. There has not been one documented case of the theory of criminals running into a store/bank/wherever, seeing a citizen with a gun and shooting them first. In fact what has happened in the past is:

Gun Owner Saves Lives In The Richmond VA Golden Market Shooting

I don't pretend that the visible presence of a gun will magically ward off all crime. It won't. Situational awareness does more to keep crime from happening to me more than the presence of an open or concealed gun. However, why not take advantage of the fact that the visible prsence of the gun will deter most criminals? Especially when the real world facts, not immaginative theories, show there is little risk to the open carrier of a crime being committed (by other than law enforcement) against them due to the open carry of a firearm.

 

[jhodge83]

You posted two stories. One from 2006, which later proved to be a completely false report and didn't even happen.

Two incidents in 5 years, one falsely reported.

Page 12 of:
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdf



There are no absolutes in life. Only odds. The odds are in favor of the criminal not attacking a person/place known to be armed. Why would they? 99% of the population does not visibly carry a gun. Why would the criminal choose the 1% of targets that are known to be able to shoot them to attack when there is equal gain to be had from the other 99% of targets not known to be able to shoot them?

Odds are in my favor that criminal will just move on. If they don't move on it's because: 1. They didn't see the gun, so I still have the "element of surprise". 2. They don't care, and in that case open or concealed carry doesn't matter. There has not been one documented case of the theory of criminals running into a store/bank/wherever, seeing a citizen with a gun and shooting them first. In fact what has happened in the past is:

Gun Owner Saves Lives In The Richmond VA Golden Market Shooting

I don't pretend that the visible presence of a gun will magically ward off all crime. It won't. Situational awareness does more to keep crime from happening to me more than the presence of an open or concealed gun. However, why not take advantage of the fact that the visible prsence of the gun will deter most criminals? Especially when the real world facts, not immaginative theories, show there is little risk to the open carrier of a crime being committed (by other than law enforcement) against them due to the open carry of a firearm.

you do realize that 80% of all statistics are made up, right? lol

who is going to actually trust a criminal of what they have to say? criminals are liars and cheats, but i'll trust everything they say that promotes my cause.

 

[NavyLCDR]

you do realize that 80% of all statistics are made up, right? lol

who is going to actually trust a criminal of what they have to say? criminals are liars and cheats, but i'll trust everything they say that promotes my cause.

Because, in this case, it is just common sense. Given a choice, attack the easiest target available, not the one that is known to possess the means to kill you. That is why cities and states with the strictist gun control laws also have the highest rates of violent crimes.

To each his own, though. I don't care how anyone else carries.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Like I said, you guys can duke it out, I won't drag this thread into it again...if you want to keep it going find the other oc vs cc threads and I'll meet you there at some point.

To SS: I wouldn't call the guy a wanna be...he is exactly the kind of bad guy that people should be fearful of. While I do not enjoy the loss of life, I am glad he will not be hurting anyone else, and I thank you for having courage in the face of evil.

 

[radartech]

I just wanted to add a few comments.. After having shared a meal and several hours shooting a pistol match with SS... He is a nice, humble, quiet and kind soul... I believe he acted in a safe, responsible and valiant manner not unlike many law enforcement or military comrades in arms. I also believe that his being there at that time at that place was meant to be.....

Lastly,I look forward to shooting with him again, and so do several of our competitors at the range.


May his mind be free of pain, anguish or any negative feelings. His nights be rest full and those that feel anything less that kindness towards him fade into the shadows left behind...


and with that... I say good night.... and God Bless....


Semper Fidelis,

Just an Ole Marine....

 

[rrman12280]

I just wanted to add a few comments.. After having shared a meal and several hours shooting a pistol match with SS... He is a nice, humble, quiet and kind soul... I believe he acted in a safe, responsible and valiant manner not unlike many law enforcement or military comrades in arms. I also believe that his being there at that time at that place was meant to be.....

Lastly,I look forward to shooting with him again, and so do several of our competitors at the range.


May his mind be free of pain, anguish or any negative feelings. His nights be rest full and those that feel anything less that kindness towards him fade into the shadows left behind...


and with that... I say good night.... and God Bless....


Semper Fidelis,

Just an Ole Marine....

Very well said. Hope to make it to the range soon. Been working every weekend. It would be a pleasure to meet both of you.

 

[fudo]

Not exactly. For my personal case it was not loud at all. I distinctively remember commenting about not hearing the ringing sound after firing a weapon without hearing protection. It was about a minute and a half into the robbery when i fired the first shots. It was about a minute later the second guy got out the door but what was under 3 minutes seems like 10. Also, when you pull the trigger and a guy falls you dont know where you hit him and he could still be a threat. That's what i peered back over at the body when the second guy was begging me not to kill him. You should also have all targets in front of you and in sight if at all possible. That is how it played out in my case and they would at some point in time have to cross my path if they want to escape. The people in the Waffle House and the ones who have seen the video from said event keep commenting that they couldnt believe how calm i was and that i had continued to eat until i had decided that it had went on long enough. If you prepare yourself mentally you make a plan and you ACT not react and you dont second guess any moves you make. After firing that first time everyone is in shock except me. That and him backing against the wall gave me plenty of time to think in what seemed like slow motion. I know this may not sound the best but paintball and my personality are to thank for me being alive. The same tactics that I employ in paintball are what I used in that situation. You advance on your targets and seek them out with no fear of death. Once you get rid of that fear then you wont second guess your moves and make irrational decisions that may ultimately cost you your life. That is one thing that I cannot explain or teach. You must be able to harness your emotions and block them out. When your fight or flight mode comes in then you best be 100% fight.

SS You did just fine. Ignore the carping from the peanut gallery.

 

[Scouse]

When you think of the chances that armed robbers, small time ones I am talking about, take, it is quite amazing more are not shot dead.

Any time you enter a place of business, one which serves inexpensive meals, in a State that has Citizens armed, and concealed carry is the norm. Some customer, even more than one could be armed.

Knowing what type of mentality perpetrates this type of crime, it is a crap shoot! Do I shoot the armed robber/robbers? For my own protection? Or allow this threat to me and mine to just do what they want. In this case, the one shot dead guessed wrong.

 

[snipingshadow]

seems like it isnt over yet... I would really like to know what charges they could bring up for not telling a bad guy to stop or not waiting on him to point a gun at me.

Officers, public discuss recent spate of shootings | GoUpstate.com

 

[rrman12280]

I wouldn't sweat it much at this point. You will always have those who want to say it should have been handled differently. Funny how none of those people were actually there. It's begs the question. How far do you let a criminal go with deadly threats before someone takes action? Should you wait until he kills someone or the weapon is pointed in your face?

Now, if someone is on or in my property and me or my family are not there and in danger, I would probably just let LE handle it instead of me physically confronting the situation myself. However, try to come into my house and/or place me and my family in danger, you're asking for trouble.

Now, if the perp walks in and just robs the place, and leaves everyone alone for the most part, then he can have the money.

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