The Open Carry Argument

[corneileous]

I understand that my openly carried gun is no more a magic talisman that wards off attacks any more than concealed carry makes someone a super duper stealth ninja warrior....

Unfortunately there's probably conceal carriers out there who believe they are just that. Just like there's people who open carry who think they're Wyatt Earp or something.

...but I do know that if my openly carried sidearm causes a bad guy to decide to pass me up in favor of attacking the concealed carrier because the concealed carrier looks like all the other unarmed folks wandering around then I'm quite happy to go on about my day without being accosted.

Hmm. You've seen this firsthand?

And if a bad guy attacks me for my openly carried gun then I am in no worse a situation than the concealed carrier who was attacked for his wallet.

True.

 

[Bikenut]

-snip-

Originally posted by Bikenut:
...but I do know that if my openly carried sidearm causes a bad guy to decide to pass me up in favor of attacking the concealed carrier because the concealed carrier looks like all the other unarmed folks wandering around then I'm quite happy to go on about my day without being accosted.

Hmm. You've seen this firsthand?



-snip-

Bold added by me.

Please note that I said "if". And I intentionally used the word "if" because I have no way of proving someone was going to attack but changed their mind after seeing my sidearm.

There have been some personal experiences (one at a Speedway gas station in Bridgeport and one in a Wal Mart parking lot in Clio come to mind) where a shady looking character with hinky body language approached me but upon seeing my openly carried sidearm apparently decided he needed to be elsewhere and abruptly changed direction. I cannot prove they had bad intentions but I do have an opinion based upon the totality of the circumstances. Of course I have no idea if those individuals went on to attack someone else who was either unarmed or appeared unarmed because they were carrying concealed.

 

[corneileous]

Bold added by me.

Please note that I said "if". And I intentionally used the word "if" because I have no way of proving someone was going to attack but changed their mind after seeing my sidearm.

I know you said "if", and actually wouldn't have quoted you but it was here where you said:

...then I'm quite happy to go on about my day without being accosted.

...that made it sound like you were insinuating it was because you were open carrying is why you weren't bothered by no one.

So far I've yet to be bothered and I've been concealed carrying since last August. Is that why I haven't? Highly, highly doubt it.

The only time you know for sure that your openly-displayed gun made some shady folks turn the other cheek is quoted down below but that's only because they sucked at sneaking up on someone or your ability of being aware of your surroundings all the time is what it should be.

There have been some personal experiences (one at a Speedway gas station in Bridgeport and one in a Wal Mart parking lot in Clio come to mind) where a shady looking character with hinky body language approached me but upon seeing my openly carried sidearm apparently decided he needed to be elsewhere and abruptly changed direction. I cannot prove they had bad intentions but I do have an opinion based upon the totality of the circumstances. Of course I have no idea if those individuals went on to attack someone else who was either unarmed or appeared unarmed because they were carrying concealed.

Who knows.

 

[Bikenut]

-snip-

Originally posted by Bikenut:
Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
...then I'm quite happy to go on about my day without being accosted.

...that made it sound like you were insinuating it was because you were open carrying is why you weren't bothered by no one.

When my entire statement, as it is quoted below, is taken in whole my meaning is quite clear.

-snip-

I understand that my openly carried gun is no more a magic talisman that wards off attacks any more than concealed carry makes someone a super duper stealth ninja warrior.... but I do know that if my openly carried sidearm causes a bad guy to decide to pass me up in favor of attacking the concealed carrier because the concealed carrier looks like all the other unarmed folks wandering around then I'm quite happy to go on about my day without being accosted.

-snip-

Bold added by me for emphasis...

Any insinuations you might have read into it are not what is plainly posted.

So far I've yet to be bothered and I've been concealed carrying since last August. Is that why I haven't? Highly, highly doubt it.

Which brings us back to Navy's statement of it being almost impossible to prove a negative. But even so we all, myself and you included, form our own opinions about why we haven't been "bothered" and, after considering the totality of the circumstances when sketchy guys abruptly changed their behavior upon noticing my sidearm over the past decade I've been open carrying, I have formed the opinion that open carry can be a factor in preventing being attacked.

The only time you know for sure that your openly-displayed gun made some shady folks turn the other cheek is quoted down below but that's only because they sucked at sneaking up on someone or your ability of being aware of your surroundings all the time is what it should be.

Originally posted by Bikenut:
There have been some personal experiences (one at a Speedway gas station in Bridgeport and one in a Wal Mart parking lot in Clio come to mind) where a shady looking character with hinky body language approached me but upon seeing my openly carried sidearm apparently decided he needed to be elsewhere and abruptly changed direction. I cannot prove they had bad intentions but I do have an opinion based upon the totality of the circumstances. Of course I have no idea if those individuals went on to attack someone else who was either unarmed or appeared unarmed because they were carrying concealed.

-snip-

Or perhaps it was their noticing my sidearm while they were in the process of sizing me up for an attack?

 

[corneileous]

When my entire statement, as it is quoted below, is taken in whole my meaning is quite clear.

Any insinuations you might have read into it are not what is plainly posted.

Ok but that's not how I read it. I explained why I thought otherwise but you're still going to argue against it so we'll just leave it be... hopefully.

Which brings us back to Navy's statement of it being almost impossible to prove a negative. But even so we all, myself and you included, form our own opinions about why we haven't been "bothered"...

Why the emphasis of my choice of word?...lol. It all means the same.

Originally posted by Bikenut

...and, after considering the totality of the circumstances when sketchy guys abruptly changed their behavior upon noticing my sidearm over the past decade I've been open carrying, I have formed the opinion that open carry can be a factor in preventing being attacked.

And you would be correct. I don't think there's anybody trying to say it never will.

Originally Posted by Corneileous

The only time you know for sure that your openly-displayed gun made some shady folks turn the other cheek is quoted down below but that's only because they sucked at sneaking up on someone or your ability of being aware of your surroundings all the time is what it should be.

Originally posted by Corneileous

Who knows.

Originally posted by Bikenut

Or perhaps it was their noticing my sidearm while they were in the process of sizing me up for an attack?

I'm sure it was.

I'm just saying openly carrying a gun is not a one-hundred percent guarantee that your example will happen to everybody.

 

[BluesStringer]

This is a thread about making the case for open carry. The OP was one of the best posts ever made on this site. It was authored by Mainsail, not a copy/paste job. It was well-written such that even the biggest USA Carry idiot(s) could understand it. It was not argumentative in any way, not judgmental towards those who disagreed with it, and every single argument that's being made in recent days' posts against the practice was preempted by Mainsail's foresight in addressing them individually in the OP before anyone had to strain the limits of credulity to come up with the brain-dead hypotheticals we're seeing now.

There can be valid discussion around the premises Mainsail promulgated in his OP. There can be valid questioning of those premises too. Mainsail has always made himself available to discuss and/or answer questions since first posting this thread eight years ago. He's all for valid conversation about the case he's made for open carry. Maybe he's all for what's been goin' on since SR9 talked about OC'ers with chips on their shoulders too, I don't know, and won't presume to try to speak for Mainsail, but this is how I see it nonetheless.

Anyone who clicks on this thread hoping to find endless walls of text talking about the case against open carry is clicking on the wrong thread. Likewise, anyone who thinks the open carrying members of this site who have participated thus far do so hoping that someone(s) will go on for pages explaining ad nauseum why they don't accept the validity of our reasons for open carrying, quite obviously doesn't understand why there's a text-box for making a Title of a thread that describes what the Topic is intended to be, and further has deficient understanding when both the Title and content of the OP unequivocally match each other for Topic content.

If you want to make a case against open carry, start a thread where the Title and content of your OP matches half as well as Mainsail's did, then write walls of text explaining your position and wait for replies to roll in.

What's been going on for the last few days is nothing short of thread-jacking. The jack-offs doing it should stop it.

Blues

 

[corneileous]

This is a thread about making the case for open carry. The OP was one of the best posts ever made on this site. It was authored by Mainsail, not a copy/paste job. It was well-written such that even the biggest USA Carry idiot(s) could understand it. It was not argumentative in any way, not judgmental towards those who disagreed with it, and every single argument that's being made in recent days' posts against the practice was preempted by Mainsail's foresight in addressing them individually in the OP before anyone had to strain the limits of credulity to come up with the brain-dead hypotheticals we're seeing now.

There can be valid discussion around the premises Mainsail promulgated in his OP. There can be valid questioning of those premises too. Mainsail has always made himself available to discuss and/or answer questions since first posting this thread eight years ago. He's all for valid conversation about the case he's made for open carry. Maybe he's all for what's been goin' on since SR9 talked about OC'ers with chips on their shoulders too, I don't know, and won't presume to try to speak for Mainsail, but this is how I see it nonetheless.

Anyone who clicks on this thread hoping to find endless walls of text talking about the case against open carry is clicking on the wrong thread. Likewise, anyone who thinks the open carrying members of this site who have participated thus far do so hoping that someone(s) will go on for pages explaining ad nauseum why they don't accept the validity of our reasons for open carrying, quite obviously doesn't understand why there's a text-box for making a Title of a thread that describes what the Topic is intended to be, and further has deficient understanding when both the Title and content of the OP unequivocally match each other for Topic content.

If you want to make a case against open carry, start a where the Title and content of your OP matches half as well as Mainsail's did, then write walls of text explaining your position and wait for replies to roll in.

What's been going on for the last few days is nothing short of thread-jacking. The jack-offs doing it should stop it.

Blues

Who died and made you king?

After going all the way back to the beginning, I can see that this started out as a pro- open carry thread but where do you get off telling people what to do and what's with the name calling? This is a public forum so even though the topic is leaning more towards the bias of open carry, don't be surprised if somebody opposes it.

Lastly, what business is it of yours to step in and make it your business?

Out of all the soapbox posts you've made, this one's up there.

 

[Mainsail]

But that's just it, carrying openly in plain view isn't always a 100% guarantee that a bad guy won't mess with you. Awareness of your surroundings will help minimize that but in my opinion it isn't worth it but hey, that's just me.

There are no absolutes except that there are no absolutes and you're going to die. You don't make an intellectual argument by demanding 100%.

If you believe that appearing to be unarmed is better for you in your environment than that's what you should do. Your chances of shooting another person are greatly improved if you do so. You may want that, I do not. Concealed carry is reactive; I don't want to react I want to prevent.

You sat for days watching videos in an attempt to disprove? Hmm.

I wasn't saying what I said above like it actually happened somewhere. That was just merely an example, hence the, "let's say" part.

I didn't "attempt to disprove" anything, and I didn't watch days of videos. I said YOU could watch days of videos (if you desired) and you wouldn't find one where the robber purposefully survived the clientele beforehand. If it isn't common then you have no argument. Let's say you wanted to molest boys in the schoolyard, concealed carry would definitely help your cause....right? "Let's say" isn't an argument, it's pure speculation and nothing more.

 

[corneileous]

There are no absolutes except that there are no absolutes and you're going to die. You don't make an intellectual argument by demanding 100%.

Don't know what's up with all that other mumbo jumbo but I wasn't demanding anything.

It sure looks like you believe your open carry is [emoji817]% foolproof, tho.

If you believe that appearing to be unarmed is better for you in your environment than that's what you should do. Your chances of shooting another person are greatly improved if you do so. You may want that, I do not. Concealed carry is reactive; I don't want to react I want to prevent.

Just depends on the situation. You have your preferred method as I have mine.

I didn't "attempt to disprove" anything, and I didn't watch days of videos. I said YOU could watch days of videos (if you desired) and you wouldn't find one where the robber purposefully survived the clientele beforehand. If it isn't common then you have no argument.

Go watch all the YouTube videos you want to disprove anything. I don't really care but acting like open carry is the be all, end all and that conceal carry is totally useless, is utterly ignorant on your part.

Let's say you wanted to molest boys in the schoolyard, concealed carry would definitely help your cause....right? "Let's say" isn't an argument, it's pure speculation and nothing more.

That's a very disturbing example compared to mine.

And to think Bluestringer spoke so highly of you. Or is it maybe that birds of a feather flock together on open carry. Hmm.

 

[Mainsail]

Don't know what's up with all that other mumbo jumbo but I wasn't demanding anything.

It sure looks like you believe your open carry is [emoji817]% foolproof, tho.

Please show the nexus from what I actually said to 'foolproof'. I made no such claim, but if you're reading that let me know where.

I don't really care but acting like open carry is the be all, end all and that conceal carry is totally useless, is utterly ignorant on your part.

Same as above; please show the nexus from what I actually said to 'be all, end all' and 'totally useless'. I made no such claim, and hold no such view.

At this point it appears you are not interested in any actual discussion, but are merely trolling. On the off chance you are not just one more troll, please address the two above questions. If not, then we're done here.

 

[BluesStringer]

 

[corneileous]

Please show the nexus from what I actually said to 'foolproof'. I made no such claim, but if you're reading that let me know where.


Same as above; please show the nexus from what I actually said to 'be all, end all' and 'totally useless'. I made no such claim, and hold no such view.

Reread my posts. I never said a single word that made the claim about you saying your precious open carry is 'foolproof'... Nor did I ever say you claimed open carry is the end all be all and that conceal carry is useless.

I said you act like it. There's a difference. There is no absolute on anything in this open carry vs. conceal carry pissing match. They both have their pros and cons.

At this point it appears you are not interested in any actual discussion, but are merely trolling. On the off chance you are not just one more troll, please address the two above questions. If not, then we're done here.

I addressed your questions but I highly doubt it is good enough for such a biased person such as yourself to accept it.

Actually, no, I'm not all that interested in this debate. It's almost as bad as senselessly arguing about politics and religion. There's always gonna be some yo-yo who's gonna have an opinion like they think it matters most of all. And I'm not just talking about the folks who are all for open carry. There's people in the conceal carry crowd that are just as bad.

Unlike you, I'm not going to 'assume' since you said it appears like I'm trolling but either way, screw you for throwing in the troll card. If your definition of a troll is someone who disagrees with you then you are sadly mistaken and yes, there is nothing more for me and you to discuss.

 

[Mainsail]

Reread my posts. I never said a single word that made the claim about you saying your precious open carry is 'foolproof'... Nor did I ever say you claimed open carry is the end all be all and that conceal carry is useless.

It sure looks like you believe your open carry is foolproof, tho.

Looks like? Based on what exactly? All you have is what I've written here; so again, based on what?

I said you act like it. There's a difference.

Again, based on what? You don't know me, how I carry, what my environment was when the essay was written, or what it is currently; all you know about how I 'act' is based on what you read here. So what specifically did I write here that leads you to believe I act like OC is the be all end all of anything? In fact, the last paragraph of the essay opens with; "No, open carry is not the be-all-end-all of self defense any more than concealed carry is." You dug a hole and you're still digging.

I addressed your questions but I highly doubt it is good enough for such a biased person such as yourself to accept it.

You did not address anything, as demonstrated above.

...screw you for throwing in the troll card.

Then prove yourself not a troll by addressing the above. You made claims you are unable to support and you keep digging your hole deeper with more diversion and cognitive dissonance. I only asked what I said that made you believe those things you wrote about me. You most definitely wrote them them, now back it up. I'm writing in plain English that anyone can understand so I'm not sure where the disconnect is for you. I made no such claims, yet you said I did. Show me where.

 

[corneileous]

Looks like? Based on what exactly? All you have is what I've written here; so again, based on what?

Again, based on what? You don't know me, how I carry, what my environment was when the essay was written, or what it is currently; all you know about how I 'act' is based on what you read here. So what specifically did I write here that leads you to believe I act like OC is the be all end all of anything? In fact, the last paragraph of the essay opens with; "No, open carry is not the be-all-end-all of self defense any more than concealed carry is." You dug a hole and you're still digging.

You did not address anything, as demonstrated above.

Then prove yourself not a troll by addressing the above. You made claims you are unable to support and you keep digging your hole deeper with more diversion and cognitive dissonance. I only asked what I said that made you believe those things you wrote about me. You most definitely wrote them them, now back it up. I'm writing in plain English that anyone can understand so I'm not sure where the disconnect is for you. I made no such claims, yet you said I did. Show me where.

Man, I'm not gonna play your game and I don't have to prove squat to you. I said what I needed to say. You don't like my opinion, fine. Don't.

 

[XD40scinNC]

If anything the title of the thread is accurate, at least part of it. Argument!

Only one of the many where people have different opinions, be it revolver vs. semi-auto, chambered vs. condition 3, thumb safety vs. or not, etc., vs. etc. or the style of beer you like or how well you like your steak cooked.

I carry concealed, chambered, no thumb safety, IPA, rare. And I don't give a damn what you think about it, nor do I care about your choices.

 

[corneileous]

If anything the title of the thread is accurate, at least part of it. Argument!

[emoji106]

Only one of the many where people have different opinions, be it revolver vs. semi-auto, chambered vs. condition 3, thumb safety vs. or not, etc., vs. etc. or the style of beer you like or how well you like your steak cooked.

Too many people worried too damn much about being right.

Carry however you see fit. That's all that matters.

 

[Mainsail]

The purpose of this essay is not to convince you to carry a firearm openly, but to merely point out the reasoning I used to determine that it is often the best option for me. If you think otherwise, please feel free to write an essay of your own outlining the reasoning you used.

I can't believe this is a decade old.

Still waiting for a coherent essay against open carry.

 

[corneileous]

I can't believe this is a decade old.

Still waiting for a coherent essay against open carry.

Why does it even matter? There is no “better” version of carry IMO. They both have their pros and cons. But also in my opinion, my concealed carry allows me to carry in places you can’t. Nor does it force me to have to pick and choose what places I can shop at despite all those pesky gun free zone signs. But then again I guess that doesn’t mean the same to me as it does you. I have no problem spending my money in places that don’t support my 2nd amendment rights. Far as I’m concerned, it’s their right to do it but carrying concealed lets me carry past their sign. What they don’t know ain’t gonna hurt them, just despise what “some” say who oppose my reasoning.

But yes, from a tactical standpoint, open carry is probably better on certain aspects but it’s not the be all end all of carrying. As I said; both methods of carry have their pros and cons. But it’s funny how you sound like you expect an argument between the two....lol.


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[TruckTurner68]

Why does it even matter? There is no “better” version of carry IMO. They both have their pros and cons. But also in my opinion, my concealed carry allows me to carry in places you can’t. Nor does it force me to have to pick and choose what places I can shop at despite all those pesky gun free zone signs. But then again I guess that doesn’t mean the same to me as it does you. I have no problem spending my money in places that don’t support my 2nd amendment rights. Far as I’m concerned, it’s their right to do it but carrying concealed lets me carry past their sign. What they don’t know ain’t gonna hurt them, just despise what “some” say who oppose my reasoning.

But yes, from a tactical standpoint, open carry is probably better on certain aspects but it’s not the be all end all of carrying. As I said; both methods of carry have their pros and cons. But it’s funny how you sound like you expect an argument between the two....lol.


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I think open carry is a very BAD IDEA hers why....

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[corneileous]

Good video.


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