The Open Carry Argument

[BluesStringer]

That is lucid, intelligent, well thought-out essay on open carry that may fly in some parts of the US. I agree that most criminals never take resistance into consideration when planning or committing their crimes and that maybe, just maybe seeing your gun might deter them. I mean if I was a mugger and I had my chance at a person waling by themselves or a person walking with large dog, I'm going to go after the person by themselves. However, it might also drawl them to you like a magnet. Using the mugging thing again, if I'm desperate and your the only target I have, dog or not, I'm coming after you. Knowing you have a dog allows me to take that into consideration and how best to rid the threat so I can mug you. By openly showing them your gun you are showing them who is a threat and that you should be taken out first. So, while I get your point, I think the element of surprise in cc is a much better option.

Thanks for a great post.

Nobody who actually open carries has ever said it's a sure thing that their OC'ed weapon will always deter. We believe it has the strong potential to deter, but acknowledge that it's not a sure thing.

On the other hand, concealed carry has absolutely zero potential to deter until after the threat is made apparent by the bad guy, at some point between when showing your weapon would be considered brandishing and when it would be appropriate, which in some cases might be a very fine line. In many, if not most cases, the threat is made apparent by some sort of attack already being commenced, making getting at your weapon that much more difficult as you're defending against blows or grappling while trying to draw at the same time, possibly with multiple attackers.

The "element of surprise" that many CC-only carriers seem to think is a positive can necessarily only occur from the perp's perspective after they've chosen the CC'er as their victim because the CC'er looked just as defenseless as anybody else.

The same element of surprise from the perp's perspective regarding an OC'er is when he/she is sizing them up as a potential victim and is surprised with the sight of a means of defense that he/she may decide they're not up to the task of taking on. If they do decide to pursue the attack anyway, the OC'er has faster and easier access to his/her weapon than a CC'er does, so tactically, it's a more sound decision to OC all the way around.

Blues

 

[Metricmetal]

The "element of surprise" that many CC-only carriers seem to think is a positive can necessarily only occur from the perp's perspective after they've chosen the CC'er as their victim because the CC'er looked just as defenseless as anybody else.

The same element of surprise from the perp's perspective regarding an OC'er is when he/she is sizing them up as a potential victim and is surprised with the sight of a means of defense that he/she may decide they're not up to the task of taking on. If they do decide to pursue the attack anyway, the OC'er has faster and easier access to his/her weapon than a CC'er does, so tactically, it's a more sound decision to OC all the way around.
Blues

I get it. Everyone knows about the Tueller rule so perhaps advertising your gun will prevent anything from happening. However I go back to if there's a will there's a way. When I hear about cops struggling with perps who went for the cops gun or got the gun away from the cop, I think it's because it was there in plain site. I think if we were both in the 7-11 and a perp comes in to rob the place or do bodily harm, you advertising that you have a gun makes you the first target. I get to save the day because of the element of surprise. I appreciate your point of view, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree... and let's hope we never have to find out who's right.

 

[BluesStringer]

I get it. Everyone knows about the Tueller rule so perhaps advertising your gun will prevent anything from happening. However I go back to if there's a will there's a way. When I hear about cops struggling with perps who went for the cops gun or got the gun away from the cop, I think it's because it was there in plain site. I think if we were both in the 7-11 and a perp comes in to rob the place or do bodily harm, you advertising that you have a gun makes you the first target. I get to save the day because of the element of surprise. I appreciate your point of view, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree... and let's hope we never have to find out who's right.

There's really no argument against at least one premise of my position - that OC has the potential to deter where CC has absolutely no potential to deter.

I CC'ed for ~30 years before considering arguments made in this specific sub-forum that eventually changed my outlook on the issue. A change in law in my state made the decision to implement my new outlook about three years ago without fear of harassment by law enforcement both easier and safer. I used to drive and guard for an armored car company and open carried every day (or night) that I worked, so getting used to it wasn't an issue once the law supported my ability to make the decision for myself off the job. Since OC'ing regularly, I have had one store owner ask me to cover it up. It was in a music store where I had just spent a couple hundred bucks and was finishing up with the cashier. As the cashier handed me my receipt, I politely said to the owner that I was just leaving, and oh by the way, I won't be back. That's the extent of negativity I've encountered for my OC'ed weapon.

It doesn't register with me that someone would "get" to "save the day" by drawing and/or firing their weapon, no matter how they carry it. My advertising that I have a gun may just as well make the 7-11 robber reconsider his choice of places to rob as to give you the opportunity to "get" to "save the day," and if that were the case, neither one of us would ever know because the robber would just go elsewhere, or possibly hang around until I left, in which case you would "get" to make your best play. I too hope we never have to find out in any kind of gunfight who's tactics are better, but if I ever do have to defend myself with my weapon, it sure as heck won't be because I "got" to do it, it will be because I *had* to do it, and it is very unlikely statistically-speaking that how I carry my weapon will have a thing in the world to do with the scenario unfolding.

Blues

 

[Rhino]

If you're hoping to "save the day", you likely watch far too much TV and need a serious reality check. get some serious tactical training and speak to some people who've actually been there. 'Saving the day', though it was probably part of all our boyhood fantasies, is absolutely not something you should be looking forward to. I'm not one of those who advises against coming to the aid of others. That's a personal decision everyone must make for themselves, and I for one am for it. But being involved in a self defense shooting or a shooting in the defense of others is an event that will have an enormous impact on your life. Based on past incidents, there is an extremely high likelihood that much of that impact will be negative, possibly for many years afterward. While I'd be lying if I said there was nothing of that little boy left in me that would love to be a conquering hero, i know enough to know that even a well justified shooting is a tumultuous event in anyone's life, and it really isn't something a rational adult should be looking forward to.
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God, will there ever be enough of this argument? Do you lose the element of surprise? Yes. Is there a deterrence factor? Yes. Is there another side to that argument? Absolutely. There's another side to practically every argument.
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There's a guy I met who teaches tactical courses at a site in south Ohio who told me that most of the concealed carriers that come to his facility have no element of surprise whatsoever. Participants are told to bring their holsters and he said many show up with a belt holster. They're told to switch to their concealed holster. Invariably the first day on the range everybody has their clothes open and stuffed behind their holsters so their gun is exposed and at the ready. This is completely out of sync with how they'll carry out on the street, so they're told to cover up and conceal just as they would on a daily basis. This is where the guy said the comedy began, because it was obvious almost none of them had ever practiced drawing from concealment. Even those who had practiced it before still had difficulty clearing and drawing their guns in most cases, and it was extremely rare to see anything that could be generally described as a fast draw. In short, he said, there is no such thing as a fast draw from concealment, and there is no element of surprise unless you can do it in a manner that the assailant can't recognize you're drawing a gun, or you can draw in a manner that the assailant can't see you doing it. This was of extreme importance in close range encounters, because the assailant has a far higher ability to interrupt the draw and aim. I personally recommend learning point shooting for this reason, but that's another topic. But he gave me an interesting perspective on the element of surprise as it pertains to carry methods. And lest anyone consider me biased, I prefer to carry concealed 99% of the time, but for other reasons.

 

[thomas0792]

Awesome read, I have just recently become interested in owning a firearm and bought my first SD9VE about 2 months ago. I have also started OC a month ago, after learning about my weapon and taking it to the range for about 1000 rounds, lots of dry firing and drawing. Watching videos and teaching myself as my budget and time doesn't allow a class for me. I feel good about OC because it gives me a sense of security, especially for my 18mo old daughter and 6 month old son, and beautiful wife. I have also brought her with me on just about every range trip, so she too could learn to use it. She actually enjoys it a lot and I'm having a hard time going to the range alone bc I feel guilty leaving her out. Anyways, I really need clarification that open carry was the right choice for me as opposed to CC. I could get CC but feel that OC suits me more for comfort and security. I don't mind people staring, never have before either. Only thing I worry about is someone attempting to take it off me, but I live in a low crime area, and work in a mid crime area, so chances of someone being so desperate to try and take my gun from me are slim I would think. I live in Southeast Louisiana, near New Orleans, but I hardly ever go there.

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[thomas0792]

*Needed clarification. This post gave me that. That was the point of my post lol.

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[FreedomSSgt]

I came across your post from Mar 17th, 2009 re: Open Carry and would like to have your permission to use some of your language in Support of South Carolina Senate Bill S.449 and South Carolina House Bill H.3930.

These bills are for Constitutional Carry/Open Carry and have the full support of the NRA without amendments. They would allow an individual that is legal to own/purchase a firearm to carry, either concealed or openly. Your post was very well written and I feel could make an impact on those in the SC Senate/House to further advance the rights of the American people to be restored.

There are 3 additional bills in the Senate. They are currently in the Senate Judiciary Committee. The bills are H.3924 which is a pro-gun bill to prevent the turnover of weapons to settle debt in time of financial hardship.

Senate bills S.159 and S.516 are NOT supported by the NRA-ILA. Bill S.159 would increase the waiting period to 28 days if no response from the FBI. It is currently 3 days in SC. Bill S.516 would increase to 5 days but is very poorly worded and would/could allow for future restrictions for South Carolinian in the future as precedent has been set.

Your post would also be used to Support/Oppose these bills with permission given.

Link Removed

Please Reply ASAP so I may have time to formulate my response for the decision makers at the South Carolina Capital. Please email to ensure I receive your response.

Thank you for your time and consideration. Please see your private messages for my email address.

Respectfully,
Kevin R. Stasik

 

[Mainsail]

I came across your post from Mar 17th, 2009 re: Open Carry and would like to have your permission to use some of your language in Support of South Carolina Senate Bill S.449 and South Carolina House Bill H.3930.

These bills are for Constitutional Carry/Open Carry and have the full support of the NRA without amendments. They would allow an individual that is legal to own/purchase a firearm to carry, either concealed or openly. Your post was very well written and I feel could make an impact on those in the SC Senate/House to further advance the rights of the American people to be restored.

There are 3 additional bills in the Senate. They are currently in the Senate Judiciary Committee. The bills are H.3924 which is a pro-gun bill to prevent the turnover of weapons to settle debt in time of financial hardship.

Senate bills S.159 and S.516 are NOT supported by the NRA-ILA. Bill S.159 would increase the waiting period to 28 days if no response from the FBI. It is currently 3 days in SC. Bill S.516 would increase to 5 days but is very poorly worded and would/could allow for future restrictions for South Carolinian in the future as precedent has been set.

Your post would also be used to Support/Oppose these bills with permission given.

Link Removed

Please Reply ASAP so I may have time to formulate my response for the decision makers at the South Carolina Capital. Please email to ensure I receive your response.

Thank you for your time and consideration. Please see your private messages for my email address.

Respectfully,
Kevin R. Stasik

Weird, I was sure I had replied to your PM but now I don't see it in the SENT box.

Help yourself Kevin. Credit to Mainsail and let us know how it turns out.

 

[corneileous]

Since OC'ing regularly, I have had one store owner ask me to cover it up. It was in a music store where I had just spent a couple hundred bucks and was finishing up with the cashier. As the cashier handed me my receipt, I politely said to the owner that I was just leaving, and oh by the way, I won't be back.

I'm just curious but why did you tell the owner you wouldn't be back just because you were simply asked to cover your weapon while in the store? In one specific way, I can understand this behavior of future avoidance from a business that would have asked you to leave but not just to cover.

But then again, to each is own. I wouldn't have considered this as a reason to make a statement like that but I guess that's just me.

 

[corneileous]

As far as this open carry vs. concealed carry debate, it's all just what one chooses. They both have their own set of pros and cons. Its all pretty much a matter of picking your poison. In any given situation, will your weapon being carried out in the open deter or attract? Will you and your concealed weapon be able to still defend once the bad guy has already gone first and presented himself?

I choose conceal carry because it gives me more option to carry.

 

[BluesStringer]

I'm just curious but why did you tell the owner you wouldn't be back....

Because I made up my mind at that very moment that I wouldn't be going back. Thought I'd let him in on my decision.

 

[corneileous]

Because I made up my mind at that very moment that I wouldn't be going back. Thought I'd let him in on my decision.

You're right, I shouldn't have asked. I was just merely curious as to why it was such a big deal being asked to harmlessly cover up.

 

[BluesStringer]

You're right, I shouldn't have asked. I was just merely curious as to why it was such a big deal being asked to harmlessly cover up.

It's kind of like someone asking why I ride a Harley. My answer is always, "If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand." Asking again after I gave a non-confrontational and honest answer was wholly expected of you by me, which is why I didn't go into anymore depth than I did. Your curiosity isn't a compelling reason for me to explain myself to you. You couldn't come up with a reason that would be compelling to me, so how about you just leave it alone now?

Blues

 

[corneileous]

It's kind of like someone asking why I ride a Harley. My answer is always, "If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand."

That's hardly the same thing. Well, it could be but considering the way you worded your answer above, no, it's not the same thing.

But sure, as far as if I was asking why you ride a Harley, I wouldn't put much thought into that at all. I would just assume...(hate using that word but for this I'll make an exception) that you ride one because you want to. Am I right?

I figured it had a little more to do with than just, "because I want to". Which, if it is, whatever. Lol. I don't care what you do. Again, I was just curious.

Asking again after I gave a non-confrontational and honest answer was wholly expected of you by me, which is why I didn't go into anymore depth than I did.

You know, you really shouldn't assume. I was not asking you a second time, no matter how much you want to think I was but I was just simply explaining to you why I was asking the first time, for your information.

Your curiosity isn't a compelling reason for me to explain myself to you. You couldn't come up with a reason that would be compelling to me...

Wow, what a completely arrogant thing to say but, whatever, it's cool...[emoji41] Lets just say your response doesn't strike me as unusual...

As I said before and as I'm saying... again... I was just simply curious. If my curiosity isn't "compelling"... enough for you to answer, don't...[emoji6]

Oh and I didn't know I was required to come up with a reason for my question to be graced with an answer...

...so how about you just leave it alone now?

You got it.

But for the record though, I pretty much already deduced to that in my last reply. Guess I'll have to be more clear next time.

 

[BluesStringer]

...so how about you just leave it alone now?

You got it.

But for the record though, I pretty much already deduced to that in my last reply. Guess I'll have to be more clear next time.

The way to "be more clear" is to actually leave me alone.

Blues

 

[corneileous]

The way to "be more clear" is to actually leave me alone.

Blues

Yet you took the time to type this... you coulda left it alone a response ago but whatever man. Good day to ya..

 

[ForceRecon67]

I Carry Concealed or Open - whichever I want

I carry open whenever I decide it is appropriate for me to do so, because God has granted me an inalienable right to self defense and the Constitution of the United States guarantees that government is not allowed to prevent me from exercising that right. I hold a concealed carry permit because I determined it was appropriate for me to take the class and pay the fee to my County. I carry concealed whenever I feel it is appropriate for me to do so, even though my state does not require a permit, because God has given me an inalienable right to self defense and the Constitution of the United States guarantees that government is not allowed to prevent me from exercising that right. Now then, I am fortunate enough to live in a State and Municipality that generally do not harass me when I exercise those rights. They both have some illegal laws on the books which I obey because I have not determined to exercise civil disobedience in that regard. I generally boycott businesses who wish to infringe on my rights, for example, I never go to Starbucks to get a coffee, concealed or open.

I don't have an NRA sticker on my truck. I am proud to be a Life Member. I feel a person who hates guns would see the sticker want to deny me my rights, maybe even resort to violence, since November 8, 2016. A criminal would see the sticker and instead of saying "hey that guy might shoot me" would say "hey I could steal a gun" (they don't reason, that's why they choose crime).

I try to help vote bad politicians out. Gun confiscation would result in a blood bath, it would be terrible.

 

[SR9]

I live in an "Open Carry " state, although I have a concealed carry permit and carry everyday. It is rare to see many people open carry even though it is legal here. The problem I have with people that open carry is most of them have a chip on their shoulder and an bad attitude. Most act as though they are just waiting for someone to make a comment about them having a gun on their hip. No reason for them to cop an attitude with others, as one of those people may have a gun in their pocket pointed at him and he is too dumb to realize it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I live in an "Open Carry " state, although I have a concealed carry permit and carry everyday. It is rare to see many people open carry even though it is legal here. The problem I have with people that open carry is most of them have a chip on their shoulder and an bad attitude. Most act as though they are just waiting for someone to make a comment about them having a gun on their hip. No reason for them to cop an attitude with others, as one of those people may have a gun in their pocket pointed at him and he is too dumb to realize it.

I agree. A lot of cops are like that. But there are also some that aren't.

 

[golddigger14s]

I live in an "Open Carry " state, although I have a concealed carry permit and carry everyday. It is rare to see many people open carry even though it is legal here. The problem I have with people that open carry is most of them have a chip on their shoulder and an bad attitude. Most act as though they are just waiting for someone to make a comment about them having a gun on their hip. No reason for them to cop an attitude with others, as one of those people may have a gun in their pocket pointed at him and he is too dumb to realize it.

Can you back this up with facts/cites/experiences? I've found my interactions to be the opposite.