The Open Carry Argument

[SR9]

Concealed means concealed and not printing. No, we don't all print.

 

[Quiet Observer]

The definition of concealed is often defined by state law or not specifically defined. Here is a small sample. Searching and listing every state would take too much time and space.

North Dakota:

62.1-04-01. Definition of concealed. A firearm or dangerous weapon is concealed if it is carried in such a manner as to not be discernible by the ordinary observation of a passerby. There is no requirement that there be absolute invisibility of the firearm or dangerous weapon, merely that it not be ordinarily discernible”.
Chapter 62.1-04 Concealed Weapons :: 2012 North Dakota Century Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

Illinois:
“ "Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun carried on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public or on or about a person within a vehicle”.
430 ILCS 66/  Firearm Concealed Carry Act.

Nevada:
“NRS 202.3653 Definitions.  As used in NRS 202.3653 to 202.369, inclusive, unless the context otherwise requires:

1.  “Concealed firearm” means a loaded or unloaded handgun which is carried upon a person in such a manner as not to be discernible by ordinary observation”.
https://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-202.html#NRS202Sec3653

 

[Bikenut]

We know who is armed when you open carry.

And I'm damn glad of it because when the bad guy knows I have a gun to fight back with he more than likely will leave me alone and attack someone who looks like he doesn't have a gun. I'd much rather the bad guy attack someone else than have him attack me.

but you don't know who is carrying concealed.

And neither does the bad guy so he sees me open carrying and leaves me alone but he sees you and you look just like all the other unarmed prey.

It gives CCer's the advantage in most cases.

Really? Think about this:

About that "element of surprise" thing..........

CC and OC have the very same "element of surprise" because the "element of surprise" is really nothing more than the bad guy being "surprised" to discover his intended victim ..... has a gun.

With CC the bad guy is "surprised" to see his intended victim has a gun to defend himself with after the bad guy has already chosen his victim and the attack is already in progress and at that point seeing the gun can make the bad guy decide to stop the attack.

With OC the bad guy is "surprised" to see his intended victim has a gun to defend himself with during the bad guy's choosing a victim process and at that point seeing the gun can make the bad guy decide not to attack at all.

But either way... it was the bad guy being "surprised" to see a gun that was the actual "element of surprise".

Quite frankly... I'd prefer the bad guy be "surprised" to see my openly carried gun and decide not to attack me so I can go home and watch the 6 o'clock news coverage .... from the comfort of my easy chair..... about the CC'er who had to pull his gun and "surprise" the bad guy who attacked him.

Does OC's "element of surprise" really work? Well.... there have been thousands of folks open carrying in many States (Like Arizona) for decades! and yet accounts of folks OC'ing being attacked are rare. And you know with the anti gun media any incident involving an open carrier being attacked would be covered over and over and over yet such has not been the case in the past nor is it now.

And, in my not so humble opinion, because CC's use of the "element of surprise" is only effective after the attack has begun but OC's use of the "element of surprise" can prevent an attack from happening............. OC's use of the "element of surprise" is far superior to CC's because....

I'd much rather watch the 6 o'clock news than to BE the news.

I spoke of the time I had a yard sale and a guy showed up carrying open. I, as well as everybody else saw his gun. He seemed to have an "attitude" about him. It made a few people nervous.

GOOD!!! I bet all the nervous people left the guy alone! And if ordinary people get nervous think about how nervous the bad guy will be too.

What he and others didn't know was , I was carrying also, concealed, and neither he or anyone else knew that.

Big deal. The thing some concealed carriers miss is the simple fact is that nobody (whether they are open carriers or not), not even the bad guy, gives a crap about that super ninja "element of surprise" hidden gun secret. Law abiders don't give a crap about your secret and the bad guy doesn't know you have a secret because you look exactly like all the other unarmed prey. Which brings us right back to I'd rather open carry and let you be on the 6 o'clock news instead of me.

 

[Axeanda45]

Is it just me, or does sr9 just keep getting more senile as the days go by?

 

[schadenfreude]

I'm glad we don't have that problem in Washington. After a couple of successful lawsuits against different police departments across the state, 911 operators are being trained to screen calls and most won't make it past the 911 operator. They ask a simple question - "What is the person with gun actually doing and where is the gun?" If the answer is, "Well, he's pushing his kid in a swing in a park and the gun is in a holster!" The 911 answer is, "Well, then, there is no need for police presence because there is no indication that a crime is being committed."

Also, if the police "must respond", they can show up, see the man shopping in Wal Mart with a gun in a holster, and sign it off. No requirement to interact with the person carrying the gun and if the 911 operators aren't screening the calls - that just isn't my problem - they need to start interacting with the people illegally calling 911, not the law abiding citizens shopping with a lawfully carried firearm in a holster.

Hopefully Ohio will get to where Washington is sooner rather than later. Were I a betting man, I'd guess that we'll still need to have two or three more "examples" before it finally sinks in. I did contact the Toledo Police Department and was advised by a LT that their training section was doing an in-service program to get the troops up to speed. Hopefully other departments will take note and do so as well.

 

[schadenfreude]

I live in Ohio and OC every time I leave the house, except during cold weather when I have to wear a coat. I reside just south of Canton/Akron area and have never had a LEO called on me for MWAG. I have not had a individual accost me for open carrying either in Ohio (Indiana that is another story). I know a number of LEO's and know they are fully aware of our rights as citizens in Ohio to open carry, none of them are looking for trouble they just want to get through their day and go home, granted that isn't the mentality of all LEO's and the information they may receive from 911 may not always be completely accurate. BUT that should not be a deterrent to any of us who wish to OC. I will not allow ignorance or arrogance to keep me from exercising my rights as I see them legally.

Yeah, I think that a lot of what we have seen over the years is certain entities trying to create a "chilling effect" by causing the population to believe that the right to OC isn't worth the hassle that comes with the scrutiny from those entities answering calls for service (MWAG). I have noticed that the response to OC in rural areas differs greatly from that in the metropolitan areas, the former usually being little more than a quick glance and (occasionally) when caught looking, a friendly smile and perhaps a nice conversation. The latter is more often, at least in my experience, a more narrow eyed glare followed by a brief dispassionate period of observation.

 

[schadenfreude]

Why?

Because open carry gets attacked by concealed carriers and anti gun nuts all the time...

Why is there a "gun rights" issue at all?

Agreed. Unfortunately, there are those who, just because they believe a right to be too inconvenient to exercise, would have us all dismiss it for that same reason. It'll never end.

 

[[email protected]]

Thank you for your lengthy but enjoyable writing. I believe that most incidents like the one in N Carolina and elsewhere could have been avoided or lessened in severity if someone had been carrying concealed.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Please don't feed the troll.

Sent from my D6616 using USA Carry mobile app

 

[Mainsail]

Here's a little more logic for the arsenal. It's from another open carry thread on another forum. Poster suggests OC will get the cops called on you. Instead of the "Well so what?" tack, I went with:

Originally Posted by XXXXX
Whether open carry is legal or prohibited those doing so will always draw attention to themselves in modern America, and it is only a matter of time before someone makes the panicked "man with a gun" call.

Ten years ago OC was not something you’d see very often in western WA. People did make panicked calls to the police, and the police responded. Sometimes the OCer wore handcuffs until it got sorted out. Here’s the hitch though- OC was just as lawful then as now. So what changed and how did that change come about?

Well, first of all we just kept right on carrying openly, politely reminded any responding officers of its lawfulness, and before long the word got out that it was legal. Within the first few months police departments began issuing training bulletins to inform their officers of the law regarding OC (or in our case the lack of a law that prohibits it). The ‘slower’ departments paid settlements for civil rights violations; some of them substantial. Today, you will only very rarely hear about a confrontation between OCers and police.

Your ‘right’ to choose your religion is useless if you’re too afraid to attend your church. Your right to assemble is pointless if you have to meet secretly in your basement, complete with a secret knock so you don’t inadvertently open the door to a government agent. Your free speech rights are without effect if the best you can do is grumble under your breath. So how can you claim there is a ‘right’ to carry a firearm if you are too intimidated to do it, or only willing to do it surreptitiously?

You cannot make a legitimate complaint that OC will bring negative response from the police if you are unwilling to stand up against it. So how come you don’t stand up against it? Is it because CC is “good enough” for you? We have no-hassle OC in WA now, and it has benefited all of us regardless of our method of carry. Back when OC was so bold as to compel an officer to violate your civil rights for doing it, they would do likewise for the inadvertently exposed CC.

 

[BluesStringer]

Here's a little more logic for the arsenal. It's from another open carry thread on another forum. Poster suggests OC will get the cops called on you. Instead of the "Well so what?" tack, I went with:

Good to see you back Mainsail. As per usual, your logic is irrefutable. Also as per usual, it seems that CC-only gun "rights advocates" care to complain and/or criticize about how other people carry. It's such a weird phenomenon. I'll never get it.

Blues

 

[TroutKing]

If someone wants to OC where legal that's their decision. They're not harming anyone and need to be left alone. Yes, there are crazies who will fabricate something and call police but that should not be a deterrent to OC. Carry-on.

 

[Wild Dog]

Guns are like children, they should be seen but not heard. A pistol on your hip for all the world to see is the best way to head off trouble. Fear of the unpressed trigger can go a long way.

 

[FTG-05]

Here's a little more logic for the arsenal. It's from another open carry thread on another forum. Poster suggests OC will get the cops called on you. Instead of the "Well so what?" tack, I went with:

Excellent response!

As usual, of course.

 

[Oldgrunt]

Guns are like children, they should be seen but not heard. A pistol on your hip for all the world to see is the best way to head off trouble. Fear of the unpressed trigger can go a long way.

Dog: You are doing a lot of woofing about what you will or won't do about open carry. Let me put you in a different situation for a second. I am 78 years old and walk (?) with a cane. I can OC any of my pistols, except one, without them being so obvious or noticeable. The exception is my 1911 .45. It is a monster in comparison and it nearly pulls my pants down. If you see an old man like that, would you, as a young man, hesitate to try and relieve me of my weapon? If you were a thug in training, you might be tempted to take advantage of me. Therefore, I have to use great discretion in when and where I open carry. I think Bluesstringer made a similar statement with the exception of age. I might not OC all the time but rest assured I do carry.

 

[vernsimpson]

Dog: You are doing a lot of woofing about what you will or won't do about open carry. Let me put you in a different situation for a second. I am 78 years old and walk (?) with a cane. I can OC any of my pistols, except one, without them being so obvious or noticeable. The exception is my 1911 .45. It is a monster in comparison and it nearly pulls my pants down. If you see an old man like that, would you, as a young man, hesitate to try and relieve me of my weapon? If you were a thug in training, you might be tempted to take advantage of me. Therefore, I have to use great discretion in when and where I open carry. I think Bluesstringer made a similar statement with the exception of age. I might not OC all the time but rest assured I do carry.

He should take his own advise about children should be seen not heard. Also he should change his name to Pinocchio. :yes4:

 

[gfrlaser]

Must have a been a banner day yesterday afternoon. I ride my motorcycle a lot in the summer and always OC when I do. Well, I OC all summer regardless. Anyway, I saw a total of 5 drivers yesterday give me the thumbs up sign as they were either driving by or at red lights. Actually, this is the most common reaction I get when anyone sees the firearm strapped to my waist. I have lost count of those that praise the law and thank me for carry where as I can count on one hand the number of negative reactions I have received in over 4 years of OC. Ohio is a good OC state, IMO.

 

[BluesStringer]

Therefore, I have to use great discretion in when and where I open carry. I think Bluesstringer made a similar statement with the exception of age.

No idea to which similar statement you refer, but I only conceal carry anymore when in my vehicle, due, as I'm sure you already know, to our state's convoluted no-OC while driving law. Otherwise, my discretion is used to display my armed status at all times that I'm armed.

I was asked to cover up my weapon at the first business I was in while OC'ing just last week. After several years of nursing some pretty bad arthritis in my hands and selling all my music gear because of it, they have seemed to calm down to where I could think about playing again, so I jumped on Craig's List and found a distressed seller trying to unload his Les Paul in Tallahassee for an unbelievably great price, as well as a college kid trying to unload a nice little all-tube practice amp about three minutes around the corner from the guitar seller. 'Course, I did have to conceal while I was in FL, but anyway, I swung through Dothan on the way back to stop at the music store on Ross Clark Cir. to pick up a case for the guitar, some strings and a couple of cables. I was in the process of checking out with the counter-help when the owner walked in from somewhere else in the store and asked if I was a cop (LO-freakin'-L!). I mean, I was wearing sandals and cargo shorts with an un-tucked tank-top that only the right side was tucked behind my OWB holster, a doo-rag to keep the loose hairs of my ponytail out of my eyes and a few other trinkets that I wear just to let my freak-flag fly (HA!), so I said, "Pfft! No Sir, I am definitely not a cop!" He said, "Well cover up that gun then." The counter-help handed me my change and my bag of goodies as I said, "No thanks, I'll just find another music store the next time" and I split.

Anyway, the scenario you relate as justification for being discrete (your age and a thug wishing to take advantage of you because of it) could be exacerbated to the extreme if you're concealing and get surprised by the same thug trying to take advantage of you for the same reason. There are certainly no guarantees, but an openly carried weapon has the potential to dissuade that thug from ever attempting to victimize you, because it inherently equalizes the disparity of strength between the two of you. And even if it doesn't dissuade him, getting to your weapon that's openly carried is always easier and faster than from under concealment. Since I came to that understanding a couple of years before our state saw fit to make OC less dangerous (from law enforcement) to law-abiding citizens, I seriously doubt that I made any statement suggesting that the better part of discretion might be found in concealing. I honestly believe that the potential for deterrence while OC'ing eclipses any possible positive of carrying concealed, of which I can think of none to begin with anyway.

Blues

 

[Oldgrunt]

No idea to which similar statement you refer, but I only conceal carry anymore when in my vehicle, due, as I'm sure you already know, to our state's convoluted no-OC while driving law. Otherwise, my discretion is used to display my armed status at all times that I'm armed.

I was asked to cover up my weapon at the first business I was in while OC'ing just last week. After several years of nursing some pretty bad arthritis in my hands and selling all my music gear because of it, they have seemed to calm down to where I could think about playing again, so I jumped on Craig's List and found a distressed seller trying to unload his Les Paul in Tallahassee for an unbelievably great price, as well as a college kid trying to unload a nice little all-tube practice amp about three minutes around the corner from the guitar seller. 'Course, I did have to conceal while I was in FL, but anyway, I swung through Dothan on the way back to stop at the music store on Ross Clark Cir. to pick up a case for the guitar, some strings and a couple of cables. I was in the process of checking out with the counter-help when the owner walked in from somewhere else in the store and asked if I was a cop (LO-freakin'-L!). I mean, I was wearing sandals and cargo shorts with an un-tucked tank-top that only the right side was tucked behind my OWB holster, a doo-rag to keep the loose hairs of my ponytail out of my eyes and a few other trinkets that I wear just to let my freak-flag fly (HA!), so I said, "Pfft! No Sir, I am definitely not a cop!" He said, "Well cover up that gun then." The counter-help handed me my change and my bag of goodies as I said, "No thanks, I'll just find another music store the next time" and I split.

Anyway, the scenario you relate as justification for being discrete (your age and a thug wishing to take advantage of you because of it) could be exacerbated to the extreme if you're concealing and get surprised by the same thug trying to take advantage of you for the same reason. There are certainly no guarantees, but an openly carried weapon has the potential to dissuade that thug from ever attempting to victimize you, because it inherently equalizes the disparity of strength between the two of you. And even if it doesn't dissuade him, getting to your weapon that's openly carried is always easier and faster than from under concealment. Since I came to that understanding a couple of years before our state saw fit to make OC less dangerous (from law enforcement) to law-abiding citizens, I seriously doubt that I made any statement suggesting that the better part of discretion might be found in concealing. I honestly believe that the potential for deterrence while OC'ing eclipses any possible positive of carrying concealed, of which I can think of none to begin with anyway.

Blues

Whoops! My mistake Blues. I got you confused with another post I had read. I think maybe I read too darn much for my own good. As I said, the only weapon I have problems OCing is my .45. It is a monster and, regardless of how I carry it, I list to one side and my pants nearly fall down. The best and easiest for me to carry is my 9mm Sig in the Kydex holster that came with it. It stays tight to my side and is not as heavy as the .45. Regardless, I will always have one weapon or another with me.

 

[golddigger14s]

There are so many pages. I'm sure I have posted, but I've OC'd for about six + years to include my bank. No one has ever freaked out. Just carry on, OC or CC. Whatever makes you happy. Keep calm, Carry on (From England 1939) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_Calm_and_Carry_On