Open carry incident in Nashville gets me detained 2.5 hour at gun point carried AK-47

[HK4U]

I waited to weigh in on this because I am torn between two things. On the one hand I believe we need to take a stand for the 2nd Amendment and the gun in question is clearly legal. I have one myself. However I also believe we need to pick our battles. Most people will fall into 3 categories when it comes to firearms and the 2nd Amendment in particular. Most of us on this forum are very much pro gun, pro 2nd amendment. The opposite end of the spectrum are the extreme left that hate guns and would like to see them banned or those that would like to see our country a Marxist country and know to see that happen the sheeple need to be disarmed. That leaves those in the middle that are not sure what they believe and can perhaps be swayed one way or the other. My personally feeling is that this whole episode gives the liberal media more fodder to try and paint all gun owners as a bunch of kooks. Those in the middle are just apt to believe it.

 

[2beararms]

The problem here is this is not a second ammendment question. It is hiding behind the second ammendment to cover up what is really a first ammendment question.

YES, under the second ammendment the poster has the right to keep and bear the weapon as the weapon is legal, and we are assuming he has the legal requirements to possess such a weapon.

However, the question is not the weapon it is the use of it as "speech" that is in question. It is obvious to me, most posters here, and I believe law enforcement that dressing in camo and slinging this weapon on to go for a walk in the park is a deliberate attemt to draw attention. The poster himself has used the term "make his point" on several occasions so he has admitted the desire to draw the attention of authority.

I will even defend his right to use the scenerio as speech. However, when he made the INTENTIONAL move to disguse the weapon as a toy by painting the barrel orange, an accepted identification device used by all airsoft makers and well known to gun people (it was discussed in my CCW training class), he crossed the line akin to yelling FIRE in a crowded theater.

One has the right to make a statement, one has a responsibility to make that statement truthful and in a way that does not infringe on the rights of others.

Although I fully support the right to keep and bear arms as it was placed into the constitution by the founders, that does not make it a "catch all" subject to any given individuals interpretation or implimentation of the right to their own definition regardless.

I, for one, simply state that I do not feel this gentlemens actions fall under definition of the rights, both first and second ammendment in the way the founders intended

To put it simply, I fully endorse and defend the constitution of the United States of America as presented, not necessarily anyones individual interpretation of that document for their own agenda.

 

[festus]

Well....Here we go...

I do not agree with the fact that you painted a perfectly good gun to look like a toy. No more than I agree with people who paint toys to look like a real gun. I see where both you and the cop are coming from. I want to ask one thing? Have you ever looked at any of the active shooter situations that have come about in the past few years??? the AK and the SKS have been prevalent in many including the infamous LA/Hollywood bank robbery. Many cops fear the 7.62 x 39 Russian round because it tends to grease right through most dept. issued vests. The AK has always been considered a bad guy gun by most Police agencies because of the roll it has played in drive-by shootings and the demonization it has received at the hands of the media. Had you been carrying a NORMAL LOOKING weapon you probably would not have had any problems what so ever. I agree with the whole open carry thing I just would not have chosen your gun AT ALL! you sir have something missing in the whole responsible firearms ownership and use thing...A CLUE...GET ONE!

I agree that you should be able to openly carry due to recent laws. The whole Idea is to be the good guy. Don't draw attention to yourself and don't make the cops wet down their leg when they see what you are packing. Why for the love of God why did you paint your AK orange? Not very tactically sound to say the least. It pretty much was a big neon sign that said come screw with me...I'm not too bright.

The real victims here are the folks who you probably scared to death...you know the uberliberals who saw the dang thing while you hiked. I do find it amazingly funny that you were not charged with any misdemeanor crimes. Yes, I agree that technically you did nothing wrong but you also did nothing right. People should feel at ease with responsible gun owners and not be calling for backup while quietly getting you out of effective range. The fact that you have been kicked off a lot of boards (yes I noticed too) should be telling you something. Please learn from this and don't be stupid. The cops and the liberals can't take the stress of dealing with folks who draw attention to themselves in an adverse manner. I am glad that you are not a criminal but you are not helping the cause of those who carry responsibly. What if some legislator came up with the argument of what about the guy carrying the AK Machine Pistol" in the park. I know it is not...you know it is not but you cannot convince an uberliberal of that. You have just become the poster child for gun control and the Brady bunch because of your "stunt". We don't need the bad press. If you AK was in its original color scheme you probably would have had a lot less problems. The fact that you painted it to look like toy really has me guessing as to WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING?

 

[kwikrnu]

I'm not looking to be "tactical". Open carry deters crime and I open carry.

 

[HK4U]

I'm not looking to be "tactical". Open carry deters crime and I open carry.

Or invites you to be the first one shot. If I were a BG with the idea of doing some damage and you were in the area walking around with an orange gun on I would not be deterred. I would just shoot you first.

 

[kwikrnu]

How often does it happen that regular people who open carry are victims of crime? Not cops or people in authority, just regular people?

 

[HootmonSccy]

I'm going to ask a question that is not a "rights" question, but a common since one..
WHY would you need to bring an AK to the park.. Are you expecting, anticipating, a foreign country assault in the park.. Is there a Armored car that drives through the park everyday about the time you are going to be there and you are afraid it will be robbed any you will be caught in the cross fire??

Although you have the "right" I do not believe it is "reasonable" to bring an AK into a park.. You are not going to run into any situations in a park that would require that much firepower, or capacity.. IMHO..
A 9mm or a .40/.45 is more than enough for a park to be within the realm of reason.

Others have the right to "enjoy" the park with their children and don't need to be menaced by someone exercising their gun rights over the rest of the public's right to feel secure.

Sometimes, just because you have a right, doesn't mean you should exercise it..

Bad Gun owner.. No Doughnut for you... Who appointed you as the Gun Owner exercise poster child anyways??

 

[ClearSightTactical]

I'm going to ask a question that is not a "rights" question, but a common since one..
WHY would you need to bring an AK to the park.. Are you expecting, anticipating, a foreign country assault in the park..

Although you have the "right" I do not believe it is "reasonable" to bring an AK into a park.. You are not going to run into any situations in a park that would require that much firepower, or capacity.. IMHO..
A 9mm or a .40/.45 is more than enough for a park to be within the realm of reason.

Sometimes, just because you have a right, doesn't mean you should exercise it..

Bad Gun owner.. No Doughnut for you... Who appointed you as the Gun Owner exercise poster child??

Are you being serious? Who made you the authority?
If he wants to carry a muzzle loader, while wearing revolutionary style clothing and a pink bow, who are you question that?

 

[kwikrnu]

I'm going to ask a question that is not a "rights" question, but a common since one..
WHY would you need to bring an AK to the park.. Are you expecting, anticipating, a foreign country assault in the park..

Although you have the "right" I do not believe it is "reasonable" to bring an AK into a park.. You are not going to run into any situations in a park that would require that much firepower, or capacity.. IMHO..
A 9mm or a .40/.45 is more than enough for a park to be within the realm of reason.

Sometimes, just because you have a right, doesn't mean you should exercise it..

Bad Gun owner.. No Doughnut for you... Who appointed you as the Gun Owner exercise poster child??

Why not an AK? How do you know when or if or how many rounds I'll need to fire to defend myself? You can't tell the future and neither can I. Therefore, who are you to tell me what I may or may not carry as long as it is legal?

 

[Glock Fan]

I'm going to ask a question that is not a "rights" question, but a common since one..
WHY would you need to bring an AK to the park.. Are you expecting, anticipating, a foreign country assault in the park.. Is there a Armored car that drives through the park everyday about the time you are going to be there and you are afraid it will be robbed any you will be caught in the cross fire??

Although you have the "right" I do not believe it is "reasonable" to bring an AK into a park.. You are not going to run into any situations in a park that would require that much firepower, or capacity.. IMHO..
A 9mm or a .40/.45 is more than enough for a park to be within the realm of reason.

Others have the right to "enjoy" the park with their children and don't need to be menaced by someone exercising their gun rights over the rest of the public's right to feel secure.

Sometimes, just because you have a right, doesn't mean you should exercise it..

Bad Gun owner.. No Doughnut for you... Who appointed you as the Gun Owner exercise poster child anyways??

Quite frankly if I "knew" about any of the possible "bad" scenarios you mentioned, I'd do my best to stay out of the area.

Your post is treading on dangerous ground. Though I don't agree with the way that "kwikmu" went about exercising his rights for numerous reasons, he did nothing unlawful. It's unfortunate that some gun owners do this and due to his actions the rest of the gun owners may need to suffer the consequences.

Using the "what's sensible" or "what's reasonable" argument sets a bad precedent. Some people feel that OC is being "unreasonable". If we all begin doing the "reasonable" thing, we may end up losing more than we already have.


gf

 

[2beararms]

If we all begin doing the "reasonable" thing, we may end up losing more than we already have.

I fear that you are completely wrong.

Since what we "have" is controlled by the government and directed by the legislature weather we gain more or lose what we "have" is NOT dependent on the opinion of gun owners, it is dependent on how legislatures VIEW gun owners.

Off the wall actions like these give the anti's plenty of power to make the legislatures see ALL gun owners as a "gun nuts".

If we all begin doing the reasonable thing we may gain ground.

If you honestly believe your cache of guns and ammo hold more power in the long run than the legislatures pen, then you are sadly living in a fantasy world.

 

[Glock Fan]

I fear that you are completely wrong.

Since what we "have" is controlled by the government and directed by the legislature weather we gain more or lose what we "have" is NOT dependent on the opinion of gun owners, it is dependent on how legislatures VIEW gun owners.

Off the wall actions like these give the anti's plenty of power to make the legislatures see ALL gun owners as a "gun nuts".

If we all begin doing the reasonable thing we may gain ground.

If you honestly believe your cache of guns and ammo hold more power in the long run than the legislatures pen, then you are sadly living in a fantasy world.

As gun owners, how do know what's "reasonable" and what's not? Being such a subjective term, what may be "reasonable" to one person may be "over the top" to another. I personally would not go out with an AK pistol. I feel that the incident in TN did more to hurt gun owners than help. What we need to do as gun owners is to come up with our own guidelines as to what "reasonable" is so that people like Leonard Embody will be able to make wiser choices in the future.

Sometimes it takes slightly "unreasonable" actions to illicit change. What we do as gun owners will be scruitnized by many, so it is imperitive that we thoroughly think through our actions BEFORE executing them.



gf

 

[ClearSightTactical]

As gun owners, how do know what's "reasonable" and what's not? Being such a subjective term, what may be "reasonable" to one person may be "over the top" to another. I personally would not go out with an AK pistol. I feel that the incident in TN did more to hurt gun owners than help. What we need to do as gun owners is to come up with our own guidelines as to what "reasonable" is so that people like Leonard Embody will be able to make wiser choices in the future.

Sometimes it takes slightly "unreasonable" actions to illicit change. What we do as gun owners will be scruitnized by many, so it is imperitive that we thoroughly think through our actions BEFORE executing them.



gf

The unspoken rules of 2nd Amendment activism according to 2BEARARMS

1. Conform, don't rock the boat.
2. Don't excersize rights that may deemed unreasonable by anyone. Why? Because common sense tells you so!
3. Carry only firearms that you may need, (consult with him as to what you may reasonably need).
4. Obtain a working crystal ball so you may better gauge the time you may need an AK style weapon.
5. Question others rights, and mock them for taking some sort of action- even if you've taken none.
6. Carry documentation that your pistol, is in fact a pistol, because being detained out of officer ignorance is completely acceptable.
7. Don't paint your firearm, in any way, even though its your firearm.

 

[Cocked _and_Locked]

I think the authorities did a good job of apprehending another crackpot in order to ascertain his intentions or the danger he may have posed BEFORE somebody got hurt. Now if they could just get the part about airline boarding....

Act like a whacko, get treated like a whacko. You made our point. Kudos all around. :yu:

 

[HootmonSccy]

The unspoken rules of 2nd Amendment activism according to 2BEARARMS

1. Conform, don't rock the boat.
2. Don't excersize rights that may deemed unreasonable by anyone. Why? Because common sense tells you so!
3. Carry only firearms that you may need, (consult with him as to what you may reasonably need).
4. Obtain a working crystal ball so you may better gauge the time you may need an AK style weapon.
5. Question others rights, and mock them for taking some sort of action- even if you've taken none.
6. Carry documentation that your pistol, is in fact a pistol, because being detained out of officer ignorance is completely acceptable.
7. Don't paint your firearm, in any way, even though its your firearm.

I don't believe that is what 2BEARARMS is saying at all..

But Open Carry a Bright Orange AK Pistol strapped over your back, while wearing camo in a city park where families are gathered to enjoy the day, is exercising your rights over many other peoples rights and was done for just that purpose.. I think the Cops stopping him EVEN IF he was totally legal to check him out was totally acceptable...
Again.. I'm not saying he didn't have a the right, but he most certainly exercised his right to be a Jack-Ass to a high extent.. IMHO

 

[MONTANA]

Come on, use some common sense. I believe concealed carry permit holders should be examples of rational and logical decision making and behave in ways that the "sheep" among us feel safer, not alarmed because they think we are nut jobs. I don't see how engaging in a provacative display of a firearm simply because it doesn't violate the law, is going to be helpful to supporters of the second ammendment. Unless I am at a shooting range, I keep my firearm concealed until I need it, which reduces both the risk to me and to others who might have paranoid delusions and see me as a threat. :wacko:

 

[sargespd]

While I disagree with you sir, I must say you made me choke on my drink from laughing.

"It makes you an asshat" quote of the year runner up.

Thanks. I appreciate a forum where we can disagree civilly. I realize that as a former cop, to some here I may be an enemy infiltrator, but I really do agree with most of what I read hear, and have always supported everyone's right to keep and bear arms. That said, I do think that reason plays a role in what all of us do, and dressing in camo and hiking through a park with a bright orange AK slung across one's chest just doesn't smack of reasonable behavior to most of the people we come across. Let me give you a hypothetical. Lets say I want to walk around a public park/playground wearing a speedo, carrying a teddy bear, a bag of lollipops, a roll of duct tape, and a NAMBLA membership pamphlet. All of these things are legal, and in the case of the literature, protected by the 1st amendment. What are the odds that I will be stopped and questioned by cops? What are the odds that I will take a beatdown from some parents? I would fight side by side with everyone else to defend our right to be armed in that park, but still think there are limits to reasonable behavior that in this case were exceeded, probably with the intent to provoke a reaction.

 

[6shootercarry]

I'm not sure what to type here or if I should make any statement at all...Yikes….

OK... Here goes…The orange tip is a bad idea. Making a real firearm look like a toy is a good way to send a message to law enforcement that I'll disguise my real gun in order to fool you. Makes you look like a nut job whose intent is to bend or distort the truth…

If attention was the intent you succeeded. A bright orange gun will get attention both bad and good. Some will wonder why you have a toy gun in the park. Some will be concerned if it’s a toy or not and will call someone to further investigate.

Wearing the camoflage, carrying the orange gun, and having the encounter recorded sounds to me like it was done to draw the attention. Mission accomplished. Not the first post on this site and others that have shown attention getters making a point.

Stunts like this will further draw the attention of the anti-gunners.
Now, I'm not one for drawing a conclusion about a group as a whole from one or two members of the group, but some folks will.

If possible open carry where permitted. Do so with some common sense. Orange tipped barrels... Yea… No...
Bring attention to the cause but do so with pride and with some common sense. If I had to choose a representative to portray the American gun owner I’ll choose the fundamentalist not the radical…

Due to inflation that’s my .5 cents need to keep the other 1.5 cents. Waiting for the Obama Economic Stimulus Plan to kick in and saving for a Dillon reloader:laugh:

 

[Glock Fan]

Thanks. I appreciate a forum where we can disagree civilly. I realize that as a former cop, to some here I may be an enemy infiltrator, but I really do agree with most of what I read hear, and have always supported everyone's right to keep and bear arms. That said, I do think that reason plays a role in what all of us do, and dressing in camo and hiking through a park with a bright orange AK slung across one's chest just doesn't smack of reasonable behavior to most of the people we come across. Let me give you a hypothetical. Lets say I want to walk around a public park/playground wearing a speedo, carrying a teddy bear, a bag of lollipops, a roll of duct tape, and a NAMBLA membership pamphlet. All of these things are legal, and in the case of the literature, protected by the 1st amendment. What are the odds that I will be stopped and questioned by cops? What are the odds that I will take a beatdown from some parents? I would fight side by side with everyone else to defend our right to be armed in that park, but still think there are limits to reasonable behavior that in this case were exceeded, probably with the intent to provoke a reaction.

What's the duct tape for?

With that said, as I stated earlier, as responsible gun owners, we need to come up with some guidelines to help those like Lenord Embody to make wiser decisions. For us to sit back and say "he shouldn't have done that" doesn't do much from preventing him from making similar bad decisions in the future. We as members of this board can come up with some type of guidelines and possibly post them in the "resources" section, maybe even create an area in the individual state forums as geographically I'm sure some types of activities will be more socially accepted than others. Rather than taking jabs at each other, maybe we can work together to get some type of positive outcome from this very negative incident.


gf

 

[ClearSightTactical]

I don't believe that is what 2BEARARMS is saying at all..

But Open Carry a Bright Orange AK Pistol strapped over your back, while wearing camo in a city park where families are gathered to enjoy the day, is exercising your rights over many other peoples rights and was done for just that purpose.. I think the Cops stopping him EVEN IF he was totally legal to check him out was totally acceptable...
Again.. I'm not saying he didn't have a the right, but he most certainly exercised his right to be a Jack-Ass to a high extent.. IMHO

Exactly which right of others did he infringe on?