Open carry confrontations

[SouthernBoy]

I agree with you for the most part.

For those that do OC, and officers respond I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect to be ID'd and checked out given the current climate and series of events.

If you're good to go, you're good to go.

wmodavis, I like what you said about attitude determining outcome.

Of course there are some officers who will escalate situations beyond what they need to be at just as there are some idiots in every work place or group.

They can ask for an ID all they want but you needn't show one. Not unless they have RAS.

 

[caburian]

Im not a big fan of Open Carry, You make unarmed civilians uncomfortable, you get police attention, you risk being shot first when robbery takes place, you risk being hit on the head and your firearm used to commit a crime. And don't even think just because you have a gun it means you will win a gunfight!
On the positive note, potential crime can also go away when a criminal know's there's another man with a gun in the area.

Open Carry is more of a statement these days.

get your concealed carry!

 

[Nightmare45]

One reason I like constitutional open carry in AZ, no license not need to stop and check anything.

 

[Icemanii]

Im not a big fan of Open Carry, You make unarmed civilians uncomfortable, you get police attention, you risk being shot first when robbery takes place, you risk being hit on the head and your firearm used to commit a crime. And don't even think just because you have a gun it means you will win a gunfight!
On the positive note, potential crime can also go away when a criminal know's there's another man with a gun in the area.

Open Carry is more of a statement these days.

get your concealed carry!

Going to have to respectfully disagree with your reasoning on this.

As for making unarmed civilians uncomfortable, I have been told I intimidate people just with my demeanor (and I CC).
As for the PD, if you think they don't know the majority of people who are carrying concealed, you are only fooling yourself. Many people whom thing they are concealing their handgun in fact, give off signals to anyone who is aware that they are carrying. A touch or adjustment of their weapon, even if with the elbow is a tell. The problem is most people who carry concealed don't do it often enough for it to be second nature.

If the BD is tough enough to bang you over the head and take you OC weapon, he will most certainly slap you silly and take your wallet and cc'd weapon. Only difference is he will get a bonus when he rifles your pockets while you are lying on the floor.

I do agree OC is a statement. That statement is " I Believe in the 2nd Amendment"

 

[Bikenut]

Im not a big fan of Open Carry, You make unarmed civilians uncomfortable, you get police attention, you risk being shot first when robbery takes place, you risk being hit on the head and your firearm used to commit a crime. And don't even think just because you have a gun it means you will win a gunfight!
On the positive note, potential crime can also go away when a criminal know's there's another man with a gun in the area.

Open Carry is more of a statement these days.

get your concealed carry!

Just because a person is carrying a gun, whether openly or concealed, doesn't mean they will win a gun fight. In fact just because a person... and several of his friends!... are openly or concealed carrying doesn't mean they will win a gun fight.

Ok.... you, like everyone else, is more than entitled to make your own decisions about open carry. However, when people make statements like:

you risk being shot first when robbery takes place, you risk being hit on the head and your firearm used to commit a crime.

I would like to see cites and/or links to incidents that show open carriers being shot first or being hit on the head is happening in numbers large enough to be such a "risk". After all... folks have been open carrying in places like Arizona for decades yet if there was such a risk of "being shot first" or "getting hit on the head".... wouldn't we be hearing about it actually happening from the main stream media using those incidents to push the anti gun agenda?

But then, in order to have made those statements you must be privy to facts even the main stream media is unaware of so.... I would like to see cites and/or links to those actual facts that back up your statements please.

Unless you are thinking that saying the risk of open carriers being shot first or hit on the head is the same as saying there is a risk of being hit by lightning... in which case your statements, while truthful, are irrelevant since there is always a "risk" of something, anything, pick a thing of any kind including being hit by a meteor, happening.

 

[Bikenut]

As for the PD, if you think they don't know the majority of people who are carrying concealed, you are only fooling yourself. Many people whom thing they are concealing their handgun in fact, give off signals to anyone who is aware that they are carrying. A touch or adjustment of their weapon, even if with the elbow is a tell.

A list of things I look for when playing the "who's carrying concealed" game.

-Pulling down a shirt or jacket.

-Odd or inappropriate clothing for conditions. Vests/jackets in hot weather for example.

-Fanny packs when pants have plenty of pockets.

-Fanny packs that obviously have something heavy in them.

-One arm kept close to where a holster probably would be. This arm doesn't swing freely with walking motions. Shoulder holsters generally have this "tell" more often than waist holsters because shoulder holsters tend to flop around a bit.

-Hitching up trousers often. There is a reason those pants keep falling down. Could be suspenders are needed or it could be something heavy on the belt or in the pocket keeps dragging them down.

-Exceptionally long pant legs with one leg where the material doesn't "flow" as well as the other when walking. Indication of a possible ankle holster restricting the pant leg's motion.

-Elbow checking gun.

-Belt at an angle. Possible weight pulling it down.

-Sagging pants or jacket pockets.

-Reluctance to remove a jacket when inside a building.

-One arm furtively holding a shirt from riding up when reaching for something.

-Shoulder going up before exiting a car as the gun is either reholstered, checked for positioning, or clothing adjusted.

-Keeping one side of the body at a slight angle away from the person in front of them.

-A hand goes into a bulky pocket, and stays there.

-Hugging with arms under the other person's arms forcing their arms away from bumping a gun.

-A dull "thud" if something is bumped into.

Let me emphasize that these "tells" are not proof positive that someone is carrying a gun. But they are hints that many concealed carriers project to anyone interested enough to look for them.

 

[Icemanii]

Exactly Bikernut, signs the person may be carrying, but not obvious to someone not looking for them.

 

[gunnerbob]

Exactly Bikernut, signs the person may be carrying, but not obvious to someone not looking for them.

You'd probably be surprised by how UN-obvious people carrying OC can be to people who aren't looking for it too. I OC'd a lot in NM when I lived there, I noticed some odd looks but for the most part the unarmed people didn't seem to notice. In the town I carried, Alamogordo, OC was not that popular either. I was even asked a few times what I was carrying, it started a few pleasant conversations about CCW pieces.

 

[gunnerbob]

A list of things I look for when playing the "who's carrying concealed" game.

-Pulling down a shirt or jacket.

-Odd or inappropriate clothing for conditions. Vests/jackets in hot weather for example.

-Fanny packs when pants have plenty of pockets.

-Fanny packs that obviously have something heavy in them.

-One arm kept close to where a holster probably would be. This arm doesn't swing freely with walking motions. Shoulder holsters generally have this "tell" more often than waist holsters because shoulder holsters tend to flop around a bit.

-Hitching up trousers often. There is a reason those pants keep falling down. Could be suspenders are needed or it could be something heavy on the belt or in the pocket keeps dragging them down.

-Exceptionally long pant legs with one leg where the material doesn't "flow" as well as the other when walking. Indication of a possible ankle holster restricting the pant leg's motion.

-Elbow checking gun.

-Belt at an angle. Possible weight pulling it down.

-Sagging pants or jacket pockets.

-Reluctance to remove a jacket when inside a building.

-One arm furtively holding a shirt from riding up when reaching for something.

-Shoulder going up before exiting a car as the gun is either reholstered, checked for positioning, or clothing adjusted.

-Keeping one side of the body at a slight angle away from the person in front of them.

-A hand goes into a bulky pocket, and stays there.

-Hugging with arms under the other person's arms forcing their arms away from bumping a gun.

-A dull "thud" if something is bumped into.

Let me emphasize that these "tells" are not proof positive that someone is carrying a gun. But they are hints that many concealed carriers project to anyone interested enough to look for them.

Haha, I play the 'Who's carrying concealed' game everyday too.

 

[caburian]

Just because a person is carrying a gun, whether openly or concealed, doesn't mean they will win a gun fight. In fact just because a person... and several of his friends!... are openly or concealed carrying doesn't mean they will win a gun fight.

Ok.... you, like everyone else, is more than entitled to make your own decisions about open carry. However, when people make statements like:



I would like to see cites and/or links to incidents that show open carriers being shot first or being hit on the head is happening in numbers large enough to be such a "risk". After all... folks have been open carrying in places like Arizona for decades yet if there was such a risk of "being shot first" or "getting hit on the head".... wouldn't we be hearing about it actually happening from the main stream media using those incidents to push the anti gun agenda?

But then, in order to have made those statements you must be privy to facts even the main stream media is unaware of so.... I would like to see cites and/or links to those actual facts that back up your statements please.

Unless you are thinking that saying the risk of open carriers being shot first or hit on the head is the same as saying there is a risk of being hit by lightning... in which case your statements, while truthful, are irrelevant since there is always a "risk" of something, anything, pick a thing of any kind including being hit by a meteor, happening.

sure thing man,

Centerville VA Sunday Jul 30 2009, A man open carrying was robbed by 2 men who placed a metal object on the victims head and took his handgun. i cant cite the exact source right now but i remember this story.

florida:

Milwaukee: Link Removed


the list goes on! you can google it, or if you want to get technical contact the FBI.gov and request for the crime stats of people with guns being robbed for their gun.
the thing is, you are closing your mind and locking yourself inside one single state like ARIZONA where there are plenty of open carry, sure being robbed is rare but there are 49 other states in this country that you need to consider

 

[carracer]

@ Caburian. How right you are! As I have previously stated... My open carry firearm is taken from me several times a day! I have to work a second job just so I can buy another. Not to mention that I was shot this morning. Walked into a 7-11 and someone shot me. Not sure who because as everyone knows, if you open carry you have no need for situation awareness. Then to top it all off... the clerk called the police who promptly arrested me for GATTOP! These things happen all the time! The papers and internet are just full of these accountings. Just like the ONE that you were able to locate of the carrier giving him the gun cuz the bad guy couldn't get it our of the holster.

I'm thinking I just might have to get me a concealed carry badge like yours and start hiding!

Oh yeah, I'm from IDAHO.

 

[SouthernBoy]

Im not a big fan of Open Carry, You make unarmed civilians uncomfortable, you get police attention, you risk being shot first when robbery takes place, you risk being hit on the head and your firearm used to commit a crime. And don't even think just because you have a gun it means you will win a gunfight!
On the positive note, potential crime can also go away when a criminal know's there's another man with a gun in the area.

Open Carry is more of a statement these days.

get your concealed carry!

This is the only factual thing you wrote. The other stuff is only your feeling or belief. There are just no battery of cases where "you risk being shot first when robbery takes place" or "you risk being hit on the head and your firearm used to commit a crime" have taken place. Cites please comes to mind.

 

[SouthernBoy]

sure thing man,

Centerville VA Sunday Jul 30 2009, A man open carrying was robbed by 2 men who placed a metal object on the victims head and took his handgun. i cant cite the exact source right now but i remember this story.

florida:

Milwaukee: Link Removed


the list goes on! you can google it, or if you want to get technical contact the FBI.gov and request for the crime stats of people with guns being robbed for their gun.
the thing is, you are closing your mind and locking yourself inside one single state like ARIZONA where there are plenty of open carry, sure being robbed is rare but there are 49 other states in this country that you need to consider

Yes there was one reported in Centreville several years back but I seem to recall there was something that came out about that one shortly afterwards that was not reported. Can't recall what it was. And we had someone OC'ing in Richmond a while back that was killed with his own gun. Seems he was in a convenience store when a robbery unfolded. He managed to get out of the store but went back in and was jumped by the BG's, his gun was taken. and he was shot. So he was party to his own undoing and had he not returned to the store, mostly likely would have remained unscathed.

That's it. Two in a state of 8 million people where open carry is a major movement. Id say those numbers are pretty low.

 

[jcreek]

As for the PD, if you think they don't know the majority of people who are carrying concealed, you are only fooling yourself. Many people whom thing they are concealing their handgun in fact, give off signals to anyone who is aware that they are carrying. A touch or adjustment of their weapon, even if with the elbow is a tell.

A list of things I look for when playing the "who's carrying concealed" game.

-Pulling down a shirt or jacket.

-Odd or inappropriate clothing for conditions. Vests/jackets in hot weather for example.

-Fanny packs when pants have plenty of pockets.

-Fanny packs that obviously have something heavy in them.

-One arm kept close to where a holster probably would be. This arm doesn't swing freely with walking motions. Shoulder holsters generally have this "tell" more often than waist holsters because shoulder holsters tend to flop around a bit.

-Hitching up trousers often. There is a reason those pants keep falling down. Could be suspenders are needed or it could be something heavy on the belt or in the pocket keeps dragging them down.

-Exceptionally long pant legs with one leg where the material doesn't "flow" as well as the other when walking. Indication of a possible ankle holster restricting the pant leg's motion.

-Elbow checking gun.

-Belt at an angle. Possible weight pulling it down.

-Sagging pants or jacket pockets.

-Reluctance to remove a jacket when inside a building.

-One arm furtively holding a shirt from riding up when reaching for something.

-Shoulder going up before exiting a car as the gun is either reholstered, checked for positioning, or clothing adjusted.

-Keeping one side of the body at a slight angle away from the person in front of them.

-A hand goes into a bulky pocket, and stays there.

-Hugging with arms under the other person's arms forcing their arms away from bumping a gun.

-A dull "thud" if something is bumped into.

Let me emphasize that these "tells" are not proof positive that someone is carrying a gun. But they are hints that many concealed carriers project to anyone interested enough to look for them.

I'll admit I'm guilty of several of these on occasion, but some of them are on purpose. Keeping yourself bladed to an unknown person in front your with your weapon away from them is just a good self defense practice. I definitely do the "underarm hug" thing. Don't like anyone else's hands being between my hands and my weapon, regardless of how well I know them. And when I worked in construction I had hold my shirt down frequently when working to stop the client from seeing my weapon. That one was annoying.

 

[Icemanii]

sure thing man,

Centerville VA Sunday Jul 30 2009, A man open carrying was robbed by 2 men who placed a metal object on the victims head and took his handgun. i cant cite the exact source right now but i remember this story.

florida:

Milwaukee: Link Removed


the list goes on! you can google it, or if you want to get technical contact the FBI.gov and request for the crime stats of people with guns being robbed for their gun.the thing is, you are closing your mind and locking yourself inside one single state like ARIZONA where there are plenty of open carry, sure being robbed is rare but there are 49 other states in this country that you need to consider

I don't believe those stats will break it down by OC and CC so would not be of help in this discussion. I agree there are occasions where a OC'er may have lost his weapon in a bad situation, but I would also be willing to bet there have be occasions where someone carrying concealed lost their's.

caburian, we all get it, you personally don't like OC. That's cool, it is your right and you obtained your CC permit and carry your way. Excellent. However, others choose to LEGALLY carry openly, and it is also their right. While you did provide an example of an open carry gone wrong, even you would have to agree the chances of it happening are few and far between.

And consider this, how do you get statistics on the opposite side? If a BG comes into a store with the intent to rob it, but sees a guy who is armed standing there, he may just choose to leave and find a 'softer' target. Since no robbery or attempt took place, there would be no record of it to use as a statistic.

The important thing is, we are all carrying for basically the same reason. Protection of ourselves and our loved ones. And since it is a right protected by the 2A, we are all good to go.

 

[caburian]

Calm down. Im not telling you personally not to Open Carry, im just saying like 90% of any forum is.. One's personal opinion
by all means, do OPEN CARRY! your free to do so in some states of course.

Read your comments one more time.. and you need to realize what you are doing

you bash one's persons personal opinion and beliefs yet you clearly state your own hypocritical opinion.

I support an armed citizen whether its CC'd or OC'd - I just prefer myself a CC'd environment, so go ahead keep bashing!

I use to open carry as well! till I got my CC permit, since I travel often and some states that I go to doesn't allow OC but allow CC.


but rule of thumb.. its always BETTER to recommend CC! no matter what, for one, it encourages people to certify/train to use a firearm in most states, some CC trainers teaches better mindset, how to respond to incidents, how to respond to officers, how to react in an event after using a firearm for self defense, after getting your CC, then go for it decide if CC or OC is better for you.

 

[Bikenut]

sure thing man,

Centerville VA Sunday Jul 30 2009, A man open carrying was robbed by 2 men who placed a metal object on the victims head and took his handgun. i cant cite the exact source right now but i remember this story.

florida:

Milwaukee: Link Removed


the list goes on! you can google it, or if you want to get technical contact the FBI.gov and request for the crime stats of people with guns being robbed for their gun.
the thing is, you are closing your mind and locking yourself inside one single state like ARIZONA where there are plenty of open carry, sure being robbed is rare but there are 49 other states in this country that you need to consider

Please note that I wasn't "locked in" to just Arizona... I said "like Arizona" which means I offered Arizona as only one example.... And you say that in Arizona where there is plenty of open carry being robbed is rare.... Hmmmmm... I would suggest that is a very interesting statement.

And you say the list goes on? Please provide that list. And don't expect other people to do the footwork to prove your statements...... YOU said it so it is incumbent upon YOU to do the "googling" and for YOU to contact the FBI to back up YOUR statements.

Oh... and if you are going to provide a list (complete with cites and/or links) please, in the interest of presenting unbiased facts, kindly separate the incidents where concealed carriers had their guns taken from incidents where the open carriers had their guns taken.

It seems to me that whenever I prod folks to provide proof that open carry will get you shot first or the gun taken from you they assume I am saying that it never happens and are quick to refer to the extremely few that have happened and expect folks to believe those rarities are the norm. But what I've said a multitude of times isn't that it never happens or that it could never happen ... what I've said is:

Provide cites and/or links that prove open carriers get shot first or get their guns taken in any numbers that make it happening a major concern like those who shout about it happening want to scare people into thinking it is.

So... please provide the list that you spoke of complete with cites and/or links to open carry getting a large number of folks shot first or guns taken... and please DO use the entire U.S. for a data base because I'd really honestly and sincerely like to see a comparison to how many incidents there actually are in relation to how many hundreds of thousands of hours represented by the decades that people have open carried, within the entire U.S. and States like Arizona, without any reported incident what so ever.

And I'm not being a jerk.. I just want proof.

 

[caburian]

Please note that I wasn't "locked in" to just Arizona... I said "like Arizona" which means I offered Arizona as only one example.... And you say that in Arizona where there is plenty of open carry being robbed is rare.... Hmmmmm... I would suggest that is a very interesting statement.

And you say the list goes on? Please provide that list. And don't expect other people to do the footwork to prove your statements...... YOU said it so it is incumbent upon YOU to do the "googling" and for YOU to contact the FBI to back up YOUR statements.

Oh... and if you are going to provide a list (complete with cites and/or links) please, in the interest of presenting unbiased facts, kindly separate the incidents where concealed carriers had their guns taken from the open carriers.

It seems to me that whenever I prod folks to provide proof that open carry will get you shot first or the gun taken from you they assume I am saying that it never happens and are quick to refer to the extremely few that have happened and expect folks to believe those rarities are the norm. But what I've said a multitude of times isn't that it never happens or that it could never happen ... what I've said is:

Provide cites and/or links that prove open carriers get shot first or get their guns taken in any numbers that make it happening a major concern like those who shout about it happening want to scare people into thinking it is.

So... please provide the list that you spoke of complete with cites and/or links to open carry getting a large number of folks shot first or guns taken... and please DO use the entire U.S. for a data base because I'd really honestly and sincerely like to see a comparison to how many incidents there actually are in relation to how many hundreds of thousands of hours represented by the decades that people have open carried, within the entire U.S. and States like Arizona, without any reported incident what so ever.

And I'm not being a jerk.. I just want proof.

uhmmm.. NO..
so demanding aren't you! your a big boy you can either do it yourself or stick with your own beliefs.
I don't need to go into details to prove you wrong, I don't need to prove anyone wrong!
you asked me to provide you some incidents and when I provide you with SOME.. now you want me to work full time for you?
you go left, I go right.. Ignore each other! its better for society.
You don't need proof, its murphy's law! anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Enjoy Open Carrying Bro!

 

[Bikenut]

uhmmm.. NO..
so demanding aren't you! your a big boy you can either do it yourself or stick with your own beliefs.
I don't need to go into details to prove you wrong, I don't need to prove anyone wrong!
you asked me to provide you some incidents and when I provide you with SOME.. now you want me to work full time for you?
you go left, I go right.. Ignore each other! its better for society.
You don't need proof, its murphy's law! anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Enjoy Open Carrying Bro!

I did NOT ask you for "some" incidents.... I asked:

I would like to see cites and/or links to incidents that show open carriers being shot first or being hit on the head is happening in numbers large enough to be such a "risk". After all... folks have been open carrying in places like Arizona for decades yet if there was such a risk of "being shot first" or "getting hit on the head".... wouldn't we be hearing about it actually happening from the main stream media using those incidents to push the anti gun agenda?

See the part in bold? Did I ask for "some"? Did you provide "numbers large enough to be such a risk"?

When you make a statement yet expect others to hunt down the veracity of your statements it is YOU who is expecting others to work for you. "Big boys" man up and stand behind their statements by providing proof. So... got proof? Be a "big boy" and show us the facts!

And Murphy's law is your best explanation that you don't need to provide any proof? Why not just say "Because I said so."?

In my opinion your statements are completely and utterly devoid of any shred of credibility or validity.

 

[caburian]

moving on... :no: