Do you still conceal carry into posted "No Carry" businesses?

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An inanimate object IN A POCKET harms no-one, infringes on NOTHING... stick with the actual written words, not your additions (fantasies?) to it...
Finally approached a friend on this who taught constitutional law. Here's his take...
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The second amendment, and the entire bill of rights puts limitations on the government's powers over its people as granted in the constitution. The second amendment was never intended to create some relationship between two individuals. The second amendment is only enforceable on the government. When you enter my property you have not relinquished your second amendment rights which protect you from the government. But it doesn't protect you from me, whether in trespass or castle doctrine laws. So you are correct in theory... that you do not give-up your second amendment rights against government infringement. But there is no second amendment guarantee for you when dealing with a property owner. He is not bound by it. The second amendment never enters the equation in trespass. Apples and oranges.
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So when someone forcibly removes you from private property because they don't like your haircut (or for any reason) and you're armed, do you stand and argue? At what point do you break-out the gun? At what point does castle doctrine trump your right to life?
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Your rights remain in effect but do not apply to the world outside of your government's infringement.
 
The unwanted presence of a firearm is only trespassing by itself if it is "held in his or her hand and used or intended to be used to threaten or intimidate a person or to detach or remove property"
Let me understand better... a gun used to threaten or intimidate is only trespass? Most states allow the use of deadly force when a gun is used to threaten or intimidate. Where is state castle doctrine law on this?
 
Private parties cannot file criminal charges. If you are a victim of a crime, such as trespassing, you call the police and they take your statement and gather evidence. The statements and evidence is presented to a court that will determine if they are sufficient to charge the defendant with committing a crime. If the court determines that the statements and evidence is sufficient the court will either issue a summons to the defendant or an arrest warrant.

If the misdemeanor is committed in the presence of a sworn law enforcement officer or a judge, they can skip the step of presenting statements and evidence to a court and issue the summons to appear in court directly to the defendant - this is commonly known as receiving a citation.

In my case of possessing the firearm in the mall, the police officers knew that there were signs posted prohibiting firearms at the mall, but they also knew that I was not committing any criminal act by possessing the firearm in violation of the posted sign and would have no ability to issue a citation. In the case of St. John v. Alamogordo the police detained St. John illegally because he in the theater, just like I in the mall, was not committing any crime.



It is the same basic principal as to whether a crime is being committed or not. Due to the fact that no member of management had notified St. John that his invitation to be on the property had been revoked, he was not guilty of a crime, and therefore there was no justification for the police to detain him.

A sign that says "no guns" or "no skateboarding" or "no running" or "no backpacks" simply is an expression of the desire of the property manager that an object or behavior not be carried or performed on the premises. Failure to adhere to that request, by itself, in no way shape or form constitutes trespassing. The management must notify the person that their invitation to remain on the premises has been revoked and they must be requested to leave the premises.

Seattle Police Department summarizes the requirements for trespassing:
Seattle Trespass Program



and



There are two distinct and separate elements for trespassing:

1. Violating conditions of entry.
2. Notifying that privilege to remain on the premises has been revoked.

Element #1, by itself, does not constitute trespassing. As noted by Seattle Police Department, visitors must be notified by a person with authority that their privilege to remain on the property has been revoked and they must be afforded the opportunity to leave the premises. Only when they refuse to leave is it trespassing.

Again, I am only talking about Washington state. Some states (such as Texas) do have statutes that define carrying a firearm past a properly posted sign as a criminal offense by itself. Some states also have statutes that define any entry without specific authority onto certain premises to automatically be trespassing - railroad right of ways/property is a common one.

Private Criminal Complaints or Charges and Police Prosecutions

Some courts allow private persons to file criminal complaints or charges against others for minor (petty) or misdemeanor crimes, without the police or the prosecutor’s office being involved. For example, a neighbor might file charges against another neighbor for trespassing or simple battery after an argument that becomes physical. State statutes, which are available online and may be available at the local courthouse or library, establish the procedures for filing a private criminal case.

In a private criminal case, the person filing the charges must present evidence to the court, just like a prosecutor would do. In some cases, the prosecutor might decide to intervene once he learns of the charges and the allegations. In such a case, the prosecutor would take over prosecution and the individual will no longer have to proceed on his own or have an attorney present his case.

Police, as well as private persons, can also present evidence and arguments to a court in misdemeanor and petty crime cases, without a prosecutor being involved. Police officers almost always prosecute traffic cases for speeding or other minor traffic infractions. Police officers and animal control officers also can prosecute minor offenses such as trespassing, minor in possession of alcohol, and failure to keep an animal on a leash.

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.co...l-offense/pressing-charges-a-criminal-act.htm

It has been my experience that trespass charges were normally pressed by the private party. WinCo, Union Pacific, and most of the farmers in my area have all pressed trespassing charges against another individual for breaking property regulations. I don't live in Seattle though...things seem to be different up there.

I agree St John should not have been detained, because the theatre management didn't want to charge trespassing. Instead the manager used the police as the medium to escort him out instead of using theatre employees. After escorting him out, I think the police were wrong for detaining and searching.

I see trespassing like speeding. If you don't get caught, are you still speeding? If the officer gives a warning, does that mean you were not breaking the law?

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
 
Let me understand better... a gun used to threaten or intimidate is only trespass? Most states allow the use of deadly force when a gun is used to threaten or intimidate. Where is state castle doctrine law on this?

I never said it was ONLY trespass, did I. What I said was that in order for the act of carrying a gun to be considered an unlawful entry for trespassing, the gun must be carried in the hand with the intention or used to intimidate or commit a crime.
 
Private Criminal Complaints or Charges and Police Prosecutions

Some courts allow private persons to file criminal complaints or charges against others for minor (petty) or misdemeanor crimes, without the police or the prosecutor’s office being involved. For example, a neighbor might file charges against another neighbor for trespassing or simple battery after an argument that becomes physical. State statutes, which are available online and may be available at the local courthouse or library, establish the procedures for filing a private criminal case.

In a private criminal case, the person filing the charges must present evidence to the court, just like a prosecutor would do. In some cases, the prosecutor might decide to intervene once he learns of the charges and the allegations. In such a case, the prosecutor would take over prosecution and the individual will no longer have to proceed on his own or have an attorney present his case.

Police, as well as private persons, can also present evidence and arguments to a court in misdemeanor and petty crime cases, without a prosecutor being involved. Police officers almost always prosecute traffic cases for speeding or other minor traffic infractions. Police officers and animal control officers also can prosecute minor offenses such as trespassing, minor in possession of alcohol, and failure to keep an animal on a leash.

How to Press Criminal Charges Against Someone | Criminal Law

It has been my experience that trespass charges were normally pressed by the private party. WinCo, Union Pacific, and most of the farmers in my area have all pressed trespassing charges against another individual for breaking property regulations. I don't live in Seattle though...things seem to be different up there.

In Washington state, the complaint must flow through a prosecuting authority:

Washington State Courts - Court Rules

RULE CrRLJ 2.1
COMPLAINT--CITATION AND NOTICE

(a) Complaint.

(1) Initiation. Except as otherwise provided in this rule, all criminal
proceedings shall be initiated by a complaint.

(2) Nature. The complaint shall be a plain, concise and definite written
statement of the essential facts constituting the offense charged. It shall be
signed by the prosecuting authority.
Allegations made in one count may be
incorporated by reference in another count. It may be alleged that the means by
which the defendant committed the offense are unknown or that he or she
committed it by one or more specified means. The complaint shall state for each
count the official or customary citation of the statute, rule, regulation or
other provision of law which the defendant is alleged therein to have violated.
Error in the citation or its omission shall not be ground for dismissal of the
complaint or for reversal of a conviction if the error or omission did not
mislead the defendant to his or her prejudice.

Washington State Courts - Court Rules

RULE 1.4

DEFINITIONS

As used in these rules, unless the context clearly requires otherwise:
(c) "Prosecuting authority" includes prosecuting attorneys, city
attorneys, corporation counsel, and their deputies and assistants, or such
other persons as may be designated by statute.
 
It's a crime to carry into a posted business in Ohio.

In most cases, they're places I don't NEED to enter in the first place.

As far as I'm concerned I can keep my money and they can shove what they're selling.
 
It's a crime to carry into a posted business in Ohio.

In most cases, they're places I don't NEED to enter in the first place.

As far as I'm concerned I can keep my money and they can shove what they're selling.

Actually, it is only a crime if you INTENTIONALLY (saw the sign) carried into a posted business..... good luck proving in court that someone saw something.....

However, it IS a crime to carry somewhere like a gov office or a jail....... places forbidden by OH code.... even if it isnt posted....
 
Don't you ever get tired of starting new pissing contests where one (or more) already exist?

I'm sorry I don't see that I'm the one starting a pissing contest here. There's already one thread going on this topic and someone resurrected this threat on the same topic
 
Finally approached a friend on this who taught constitutional law. Here's his take...
.
The second amendment, and the entire bill of rights puts limitations on the government's powers over its people as granted in the constitution. The second amendment was never intended to create some relationship between two individuals. The second amendment is only enforceable on the government. When you enter my property you have not relinquished your second amendment rights which protect you from the government. But it doesn't protect you from me, whether in trespass or castle doctrine laws. So you are correct in theory... that you do not give-up your second amendment rights against government infringement. But there is no second amendment guarantee for you when dealing with a property owner. He is not bound by it. The second amendment never enters the equation in trespass. Apples and oranges.
.
So when someone forcibly removes you from private property because they don't like your haircut (or for any reason) and you're armed, do you stand and argue? At what point do you break-out the gun? At what point does castle doctrine trump your right to life? What in the hell are you saying junk like this for? WHERE HAS ANYONE SAID THEY WOULDNT LEAVE WHEN ASKED ???????
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Your rights remain in effect but do not apply to the world outside of your government's infringement.
I never said the 2nd amendment did apply to an individual as far as being held to/by it to protect my rights... I said my rights (which the BOR happen to mention) dont disappear.... or do you (and your so-called scholar/teacher friend) actually think that no-one had any rights BEFORE the BOR and Constitution? I DID mention the 2nd because it helps people know which right I am mainly talking about, because it is about firearms....
 
I'm sorry I don't see that I'm the one starting a pissing contest here. There's already one thread going on this topic and someone resurrected this threat on the same topic

And now we have a pissing contest going on regarding who started the pissing contest or whether this is a new pissing contest or just a resurrection of a previous pissing contest. ROFLMAO!
 
I come at this from a different perspective. I don't have a concealed carry permit, therefore I don't carry. However, I do not do business with any store, movie theater, diner, grocery store, etc. that displays a no guns allowed sign. Period. I personally feel safer in establishments that allow OC or CC. It is their right to ban guns in their places of business. It is my right to withhold my money from them.
 
I never said the 2nd amendment did apply to an individual as far as being held to/by it to protect my rights... I said my rights (which the BOR happen to mention) dont disappear.... or do you (and your so-called scholar/teacher friend) actually think that no-one had any rights BEFORE the BOR and Constitution? I DID mention the 2nd because it helps people know which right I am mainly talking about, because it is about firearms....


You'll have to take that up with him. But he is a former NYC DA, Former fed judge, law professor, trial attorney and a contributor at Fox News. He's my best bud, I've known him 35 years and I'm betting my money on him. Geez, talk about the dems going back to GWB. How friggin far you trying to go back? We're not speaking about 10,000, 1,000 or even 300 years ago. We're speaking about a constitutional right, not a right handed down by God or nature since the beginning of time. The thread is titled "Do you still conceal carry into posted "No Carry" businesses?" We're talking about here and now; the rights of a property owner vs. the 2nd amendment.
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Once again... the second amendment exists between you and the government, not you and any other person. It does not guarantee you anything other than the government won't infringe. When you enter someone's property you don't lose your 2nd amendment right between you and your government. It just doesn't buy you anything on other's private property or in their privately owned businesses.
 
And now we have a pissing contest going on regarding who started the pissing contest or whether this is a new pissing contest or just a resurrection of a previous pissing contest. ROFLMAO!
And as we get older we don't pi$$ for distance, we pi$$ for accuracy.
 
The law says is a business posts a "clearly visable" no guns allow sign. If I see a clearly posted sign, I put my gun in my car's gun safe. I don't go looking for a no guns sign that isn't clearly posted. If I don't see a sigh I carry in. If I see a sigh I make a decision to either put my gun in my car's gun same and go in or to go somewhere else. It just depends on how badly I want or need to business with that establishment.

Following the law means if an incident does ocure and I knowingly violate the "no guns allowed" sign I can be arrested and sent to jail and lose the ability to conceal carry. In my state i could still open carry but I prefer to conceal carry so I try to follow the law to the best of my ability to do so. When I cant carry someplace, I can still carry a knife. Not the same amount of protection, but better than nothing.
 
I come at this from a different perspective. I don't have a concealed carry permit, therefore I don't carry. However, I do not do business with any store, movie theater, diner, grocery store, etc. that displays a no guns allowed sign. Period. I personally feel safer in establishments that allow OC or CC. It is their right to ban guns in their places of business. It is my right to withhold my money from them.

Nice answer. Especially the part about your right to withhold your money from establishments that posst no carry signs. You acknowledge their right to post their sign and your right to not do business with them when they do. Would be nice if you also informed the manager or owner of the establishment why you are choosing not to spend your money in their establishment and that you may even encourage others to make the same choice.
 
Nice answer. Especially the part about your right to withhold your money from establishments that posst no carry signs. You acknowledge their right to post their sign and your right to not do business with them when they do. Would be nice if you also informed the manager or owner of the establishment why you are choosing not to spend your money in their establishment and that you may even encourage others to make the same choice.
 
We're speaking about a constitutional right, not a right handed down by God or nature since the beginning of time. The thread is titled "Do you still conceal carry into posted "No Carry" businesses?" We're talking about here and now; the rights of a property owner vs. the 2nd amendment.
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YOU might be talking about that, but I have ALWAYS been talking about natural RIGHTS (that the bor and constitution point out, a few of them anyway) so, you are talking to the wrong person (you quoted me... not someone else) My RIGHTS (and yours too) NEVER disappear or go away... if YOU decide to relinquish some or all of them to someone else,that is between you and them, and has nothing to do with me....


Not one solitary person on this world has power over me UNLESS I ALLOW them that power.... and I treat all others as I myself want to be treated..... I do no harm to others... Having an inanimate object in no way harms anyone in any way... Some here seem to think otherwise yet after being asked repeatedly to provide any kind of proof to dispute it have only resorted to name calling and ridicule because that is all they have....
 
Many years ago a very good friend of mine was at a high end restaurant jn a town a short ways from where we lived (this was in upstate NY) you could have a permit but getting one was all but impossible, so naturaly only the BGs had guns, anyways my friend and his family wife and 3 kids, all under the age of 12, were eating dinner and two well dress men came in, pulled sawed off shotguns from under the jacket and instructed everybody to put there wallet and jewelery on there table then get on the floor, I was not there but I guess my friend was not moving fast enough, and the thief ask's what your problem my bud say I'm getting there he had already put his wallet on the table, the pokes him with the shotgun, he says go F yourself, he cracks him on the side of his head with the shotgun, my bud hit the floor, knocked out, the ******** collects the wallets and jewelery and hit the door no one else was injured, my friend died from a brain anurisum three days later, the robbers were nabbed later that evening after a brief shootout with police, one suspect died in the shootout the other was treated and went to jail, served 21 years and is now free, I had long since moved away, but kept in touch, ...........some of you may or may not be interested in this, but from the day after this happened I have NEVER been unarmed, fortunately I have never needed to use it, but there was no way someone was going to do that to me and my family if I had any possible way of stopping it, now I know especialy then in upstate NY carrying a unregistered gun with no permit would have maybe got you a room under the jail, and I have been in places with the signs on the door, and I have not and will not give them even a passing thought, but when I am in the this sort of place my gun STAYS concealed, even though I have had a permit for some time now, and open carry most of the time.......I realize in some instinces this may or may not be illegal, and I will not advise someone else to do it, depending on the situation you can get into a world of legal sheet, and cost you a lot, but given a like instince like my friend had I will take my chances
 
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