Do you still conceal carry into posted "No Carry" businesses?

[Bikenut]

That is a very helpful cogent "heads-up" Thank you. Having said that, we all take responsibility for our actions. Ignorance is, as they say, no excuse but.....Sign? What sign? I saw no stinking sign!

There is a discussion here:

MGO Community Forum

where an attorney in Michigan opines that (at least in Michigan) saying you didn't see the sign may not help because the judge/jury could decide that a reasonable man would have seen the sign on the door or wall and therefor you should have known .... making the "I didn't see the sign" no help at all.

Which is why I suggested folks need to check into the trespass laws in their own State, and any States they visit, in order to understand what the law considers as "having been notified" ..............

 

[CapGun]

There is a discussion here:

MGO Community Forum

where an attorney in Michigan opines that (at least in Michigan) saying you didn't see the sign may not help because the judge/jury could decide that a reasonable man would have seen the sign on the door or wall and therefor you should have known .... making the "I didn't see the sign" no help at all.

Which is why I suggested folks need to check into the trespass laws in their own State, and any States they visit, in order to understand what the law considers as "having been notified" ..............

Not to split hairs but did you see the part in my post where I mentioned "ignorance of the law.......?
You are also assuming that the sign was posted and the size was and the location was where the judge/jury could actually decide that it is something that a "reasonable man" would see!
I couple of years ago I drove 45 min to see a movie with my wife. It was the showing about the landing at Plymouth Rock and the religious history behind it. The one produced by Cameron. Well I bought my tickets there in advance, went to dinner and then returned for the showing. That is when I saw the sign was down low below the ticket windows. No force of law! If they discover your concealed weapon and ask you leave and you do not then they can/will press trespassing charges. No I was not going to put it in my car where I did not have a lock box. No I was not going to drive the 50 miles back home! I totally understand what you are saying but the absolute only way one would know if I had a gun is if I needed it to defend myself and/or wife. I will be happy to explain at that point that I did not see the sign prior to buying my ticket. Then the DA can press his case with every station and radio station in the area at his office including a few people from the movie that would be happy I did have a gun.
That's all there is because there ain't no more!

 

[Bikenut]

Not to split hairs but did you see the part in my post where I mentioned "ignorance of the law.......?
You are also assuming that the sign was posted and the size was and the location was where the judge/jury could actually decide that it is something that a "reasonable man" would see!
I couple of years ago I drove 45 min to see a movie with my wife. It was the showing about the landing at Plymouth Rock and the religious history behind it. The one produced by Cameron. Well I bought my tickets there in advance, went to dinner and then returned for the showing. That is when I saw the sign was down low below the ticket windows. No force of law! If they discover your concealed weapon and ask you leave and you do not then they can/will press trespassing charges. No I was not going to put it in my car where I did not have a lock box. No I was not going to drive the 50 miles back home! I totally understand what you are saying but the absolute only way one would know if I had a gun is if I needed it to defend myself and/or wife. I will be happy to explain at that point that I did not see the sign prior to buying my ticket. Then the DA can press his case with every station and radio station in the area at his office including a few people from the movie that would be happy I did have a gun.
That's all there is because there ain't no more!

Thing is... I'm not knocking your decision. You do what ever you want. I'm just suggesting... actually very strongly suggesting... that people understand there are more laws involved than just firearms laws, some of which are the trespass laws, and be aware of how those laws affect them when they carry. And what constitutes legal "notification of trespass" in your State. So it is up to each of us to know all that... then make our decisions.

And in Michigan it is not necessary to be asked to leave before being arrested for trespass. There isn't any provision in the trespass law for a request to leave being required before trespass occurs. Trespass actually occurs when the person walks onto/into the property without the permission of the owner.. and those who carry guns don't have his permission. No permission = trespass. Being asked to leave means the person got caught in the act of trespass and the owner is being polite... but isn't required to be polite and could just call the cops and let them sort it out.

Here is an interesting quirk in Michigan law... the "stand your ground" protections against prosecution for not running away and protections against civil suit are only operative when a person is in a place it is legal for them to be. Which means if a person is carrying a gun on property where the owner has said that folks who carry guns don't have his permission to be there.... it is not legal for that person to be there because they are trespassing and they have lost the legal protections of the "stand your ground" portion of "the force of law".

Everyone can do whatever they want and justify it with any rationalizations wished. The thing I'm trying to suggest is for everyone to know the laws... ALL of the laws... that affect a person who carries a gun in their State and the States they visit. And the penalties attached to violating those laws.

 

[Axeanda45]

If it makes you feel better to violate the law so that you have this protection--have at it.

You would NOT be violating the "LAW" because the "LAW" states VERY CLEARLY "Shall NOT be Infringed"......

 

[Firefighterchen]

You would NOT be violating the "LAW" because the "LAW" states VERY CLEARLY "Shall NOT be Infringed"......

Shall not be infringed is not a law between you and me (or anyone other than the government).

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[Axeanda45]

Shall not be infringed is not a law between you and me (or anyone other than the government).

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And your reply does NOT apply to mine... read the quote in the post.....

 

[Buster04]

If it makes you feel better to violate the law so that you have this protection--have at it. In a "what if" situation, this feel good feeling with soon turn to legal and civil trouble big time---say you CC where you are not allowed and upon leaving said location you are in a bad situation requiring use of your firearm and the BG is killed or seriously injured. Upon police review, it is revealed that there is only one way you could have had that firearm on you and it was an illegal way. Want to count up the time you will now spend defending your misdemeanor/criminal case or think about what is left of your possesions once you are sued up the kazoo?

What you are saying is you had rather be carried by six than judged by 12

 

[Firefighterchen]

And your reply does NOT apply to mine... read the quote in the post.....

Yes, it does apply to you. Violating a trespass LAW is between you and another citizen. You quoted the 2nd, which has nothing to do with you and another citizen, but between you and the government.

What you are saying is you had rather be carried by six than judged by 12

Sounds like he would rather not be judged by 12 nor carried by 6, by not going in there too begin with. Or does it have to be one or the other?

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[snatale42]

I could care less about the very few signs I come across, but they have no legal power in my state. If they actually did hold weight of law that would be different.

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[Harry Carry]

Personally, if I'm accompanying someone and see a sign, I will ignore it and walk in since I have no plan on purchasing anything.

If I was there to buy something and saw the sign, I would do as others have said: seek a manager, explain how much of a sale they lost and how many more they will lose until they change their policy and hand them this: http://snoballs.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/no-guns-no-money-2.jpg

"No guns - no money." No s***.

Love it!

 

[Bikenut]

I could care less about the very few signs I come across, but they have no legal power in my state. If they actually did hold weight of law that would be different.

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Let me ask... do those signs have the weight of the trespass law behind them? Please understand I'm asking sincerely because unless "being asked to leave" is the one and only specified by actual law way a person is notified of trespassing then those signs might have the weight of the trespass law behind them.

 

[mappow]

Ain't no ones business but my own. I choose to protect myself when and where I choose. NOT saying I disregard any Laws applicable, just saying it's all about choices.

 

[Axeanda45]

Yes, it does apply to you. Violating a trespass LAW is between you and another citizen. You quoted the 2nd, which has nothing to do with you and another citizen, but between you and the government.




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SIGH..... No, it does NOT apply...... as ANY LAW that has anything whatsoever to do with firearms, which a "law" about signs pertaining to firearms not allowed having or not having "force of law behind it" IS A "LAW" about firearms FIRST AND FOREMOST before it is a "law" about trespassing...... Therefore, whether YOU like it or not, this IS a null and void "law" because it DOES have an infringement about that which shall not be infringed....

 

[Firefighterchen]

SIGH..... No, it does NOT apply...... as ANY LAW that has anything whatsoever to do with firearms, which a "law" about signs pertaining to firearms not allowed having or not having "force of law behind it" IS A "LAW" about firearms FIRST AND FOREMOST before it is a "law" about trespassing...... Therefore, whether YOU like it or not, this IS a null and void "law" because it DOES have an infringement about that which shall not be infringed....

Shall not be infringed is between you and the government, not between you and another citizens private property (me). It does apply to you.

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[Rocketgeezer]

I will answer this the same as I would answer the open/concealed question, do what you want, and don't try to persuade others to your way of thnking, if you want or need to go n a place with a no guns sign go and keep your weapon concealed and keep your yap shut about it do your business and leave, I have open carried in resturants with gunbuster signs and have never been asked to leave, now a couple of places we had been going to for some time that had signs, a manager did ask me once if I had seen the sign on the door, it was a little maybe 3inch sticker in a lower corner, and I said to him yea I seen it some time ago, and since I had seen others in there with guns and nobody said nothing to me or them at the time, I though the sign was no big deal, I guess he thought not to push it, as he just said don't shoot nobody and walked off shakeing his head, we went in about two weeks later and the gun sticker was gone............in our state the permit is a handgun carry permit, open or concealed our choice, and any gunbuster sign on any door that the general public may go in is just that a sign with no law to back it up, if the owner/manager ask's you to leave because of the gun then you should leave, you may get a trespass ticket, I know we read about this here on the forum and you see it every once in a while on the general news, that there was a confrontation somewhere because of a gun, but I have never heared of any sort of thing around here, I got my bank manager interested about 2 years ago she finaly got her permit two months ago and now she's a little pissed that she cannot carry while on the job, she does keep it in the car, she makes dam good money so there's no point to screwing up her job, my doctors officer is another place with a sign, since my doc found out I have a permit and carry he ask's what I have that day, he like's the 1911s, he took my Kimber to the range one day, next time I seen him he had his own, and pissed and moaned about what it cost..............I have been seeing him for 15 years or more and NEVER did he mention the sign on the door

 

[Pir8fan]

I too see very few properly posted locations. The most common one I see is a small, obscure sign posted inside the location. In order to even see the sign you have to already be inside. That fails NC's "conspicuously posted" requirement and therefore does not have the force of law.

 

[apvbguy]

I too see very few properly posted locations. The most common one I see is a small, obscure sign posted inside the location. In order to even see the sign you have to already be inside. That fails NC's "conspicuously posted" requirement and therefore does not have the force of law.

on a recent trip through NC I only encountered one business that posted no weapons signs, this place had no less than 3 on each entrance

 

[snatale42]

If it makes you feel better to violate the law so that you have this protection--have at it. In a "what if" situation, this feel good feeling with soon turn to legal and civil trouble big time---say you CC where you are not allowed and upon leaving said location you are in a bad situation requiring use of your firearm and the BG is killed or seriously injured. Upon police review, it is revealed that there is only one way you could have had that firearm on you and it was an illegal way. Want to count up the time you will now spend defending your misdemeanor/criminal case or think about what is left of your possesions once you are sued up the kazoo?

While I don't advocate people breaking the law I'm pretty sure 100% of people would rather defend themselves in court and be "sued up the kazoo" every time when the other option is being 6ft under.

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[snatale42]

Shall not be infringed is not a law between you and me (or anyone other than the government).

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What you are saying is you had rather be carried by six than judged by 12

Let me ask... do those signs have the weight of the trespass law behind them? Please understand I'm asking sincerely because unless "being asked to leave" is the one and only specified by actual law way a person is notified of trespassing then those signs might have the weight of the trespass law behind them.

No, they hold NO legal weight, your not trespassing until your asked to leave and don't. Gun or otherwise.

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[Firefighterchen]

No, they hold NO legal weight, your not trespassing until your asked to leave and don't. Gun or otherwise.

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Depends on state law..They aren't asking either...They are telling the trespasser to leave....why reopen this thread btw? There is another thread going on covering this exact same topic.

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