Why Competion and Bullseye Shooting Will KIll You

[Amsdorf]

It never ceases to amaze me how stupid conversations on gun fora are when it comes to the difference between combat accuracy and competition "bullseye" shooting.

Combat shooting is about placing EFFECTIVE hits on target, as much as necessary, to NEUTRALIZE the threat. What does "neutralize' mean? It means you have pumped enough lead into the bad guy to prevent him from doing anymore harm.

Talk to any true expert in this subject matter and they will tell you:

1) The handgun is a weak weapon to begin with.
2) Most handgun fights take place within 15 feet, and last no more than three seconds, and no more than three shot.
3) You have to be able to get shots off quickly, using your front sight only, and aim for center mass.

This drives the competition kind of shooters nuts. They think the ultimate goal of all shooting is to put rounds through the same hole in paper.

NO.

The goal is to make the EMT's job hard, or the coroner's job hard. If you are putting rounds in the same or close to the same hole, you are are not placing shots EFFECTIVELY.

The goal is to get as many shots into center mass as required to stop the bad buy.

Head shots? Cool, if possible.

Shots to the "electrical" or "hyraulics" system...yes, great.

Putting shots into the chest and stomach cavity as many as needed? Ideal. But put shots into the pelvis, and the guy is going DOWN. No question. Put four shots into the chest general area, and he is having a bad day. Don't stop shooting until he is down and not moving. Look for the hand so hang loosely, a sign he is dead or unconscience. Be ready to pump a couple more into the not not-moving bad guy if it looks like he is still squirming.

If you think that in a gun fight you will have time to get your sights aligned perfectly and squeeze off "perfect" shots, this will just get you dead, dead and ... dead.

The goal is to engage your threat with the front sight on target and squeeze off as many shots as required to neutralize the bad guy.

End of sermon.

 

[foxytwo]

People work on their triggers to get a buttery smooth and light pull. In an emergency situation any factory trigger will suffice. All my carry pistols are stock, like they came out of the factory. When I go to the range I practice at 7 yards and point shooting.

 

[Firefighterchen]

The is a lot of good...and a lot of bad on the op.

1. Upper CNS shots are the only shots to immediately neutralize.

2. Pelvic shots are good, if they break the pelvis or hit the major vessels. Even then, they can still shoot back.

3. Stereotyping competition shooters is really lame.

4. Electrical (CNS) will always be better than Structural (skeletal).

5. If you have time to look for signs of death or time to pump a couple more rounds into them...you have time to retreat and get the hell out of there.



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[r1derbike]

The is a lot of good...and a lot of bad on the op.

1. Upper CNS shots are the only shots to immediately neutralize.

2. Pelvic shots are good, if they break the pelvis or hit the major vessels. Even then, they can still shoot back.

3. Stereotyping competition shooters is really lame.

4. Electrical (CNS) will always be better than Structural (skeletal).

5. If you have time to look for signs of death or time to pump a couple more rounds into them...you have time to retreat and get the hell out of there.



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Shoot until the threat is stopped would be my #5. No more explanation is needed, or required.

Per OP, pumping rounds into a BG sounds so, well, mercenary. Head shots being cool also sounds so, well, mercenary too.

The above very likely will be required to stop the threat, but I wouldn't be so callous about the description.

Or maybe I've just had an extremely bad day...

My .02, YMMV.

 

[mappow]

I've always trained 2 round burst, CM, evaluate while moving. REPEAT if necessary. I never trained to wound, maim or try for a leg or arm shot. I have always trained to Stop The Threat. Have not changed that training since the mid seventies. While fortunately have never had to use this training in either personal or professional life. I do believe I have a better chance then some, not all. I'm only as good as my training. Just really don't have the hundred dollars or so monthly to train as much as I want (or need).
BUT, I guarantee, their will be .45 JHP coming if I'm able. I'd carry a .50 but just a bit to big to CC.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I must disagree. In my personal experience competition bullseye shooting has helped me immensely to gain the skill of proper trigger squeeze while combat shooting. Competition bullseye shooting has taught me how to squeeze the trigger so as not to push or pull the shot to the right or left and to never anticipate the gun firing, which is key also during rapid combat shooting. It doesn't do you any good if you can draw, aim and fire within 2 seconds if your poor trigger control causes you to pull or push the shot off center right or left, or anticipating the shot causes your point of aim to push downward.

I also disagree with not stopping shooting until the threat is down or not moving. Shoot a criminal in the back when they are retreating and you open up a whole can of legal worms. When they start retreating and not shooting at you any longer is the time to be continuing to seek cover, not keep shooting.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Shoot a criminal in the back when they are retreating and you open up a whole can of legal worms.

We aren't playing cops after all...

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[S&W645]

2 in the chest, 1 in the head with a .45ACP will just about stop anyone.

 

[CapGun]

Combat shooting and tactics. Target shooting. I don't see how target shooting can't help your "combat" proficiency as long as you practice both and not just rely on target shooting. Sort of like cross training.

 

[kelcarry]

People work on their triggers to get a buttery smooth and light pull. In an emergency situation any factory trigger will suffice. All my carry pistols are stock, like they came out of the factory. When I go to the range I practice at 7 yards and point shooting.

IMHO, this reply and the basis of this thread are 100% correct. If you are going to the range to see how accurate and proficient you are at target shooting have at it. If you are going to the range to maintain your "shooting memory" with your firearm and are only thinking of what that firearm is really for when it comes to defense, aiming and putzing around with aiming and sighting and more aiming and sighting before you shoot, is wasting your time. Not that I say anything to my friends who I shoot with, but outside of the 22 target shooting that is a given, their use of their defense firearms still follows that protocol--looks good on the bullseye but, IMO, is a terrible waste of time.

 

[Eidolon]

5. If you have time to look for signs of death or time to pump a couple more rounds into them...you have time to retreat and get the hell out of there.

That needs to be printed up and taped to the mirror of every person that carries a gun in the world

 

[MamaLiberty]

Mindset. Have you made up your mind that you are going to survive, and that you will do whatever it takes to accomplish that?

What are you are training for? Decide on that and you can work on the best way to accomplish it.

Are you training for great target groups as a sport, or are you training for survival? Maybe you can train for both? I don't know. I train for survival, building that around the most likely situations I would encounger in my daily life, and a few that might be unusual. I don't waste time with things I'm not ever apt to need or use. But I'm always looking for something that might improve my options.

I had to shoot a man to save my life once. The Man I Might Have Killed | The Price of Liberty Here's the story. I never used the "sights" and I only had one round. In the long run, whatever works, works... and the better you can anticipate and prepare for something, the better chance it will work. We don't always get the luck of the draw like I did.

 

[r1derbike]

I'm sure nobody has suggested shooting anyone in the back in this thread, or implied it. You are spot-on about shooting a retreating threat, and a free trip to jail, Navy.

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[r1derbike]

2 in the chest, 1 in the head with a .45ACP will just about stop anyone.

My sentiments exactly.

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[r1derbike]

I'm sure nobody has suggested shooting anyone in the back in this thread, or implied it. You are spot-on about shooting a retreating threat, and a free trip to jail.

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This was meant for NavyLCMDR...



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[NavyLCDR]

I'm sure nobody has suggested shooting anyone in the back in this thread, or implied it. You are spot-on about shooting a retreating threat, and a free trip to jail.

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Don't stop shooting until he is down and not moving. Look for the hand so hang loosely, a sign he is dead or unconscience. Be ready to pump a couple more into the not not-moving bad guy if it looks like he is still squirming.

Seems pretty close to it.

 

[r1derbike]

Seems pretty close to it.

I hope that wasn't intent...what about it, Amsdorf?

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[BluesStringer]

It has been my observation over the last couple or three years that taking any advice from Amsdorf could lead to a catastrophic mistake that may either land you in bankruptcy court, or in prison. The OP in this thread is one of the most glaring examples. I only open his threads if/when I see that folks whose opinions on tactics I trust have started posting replies. Not-so-coincidentally methinks, most of those people have already posted in this thread. Thanks.

Blues

 

[r1derbike]

It has been my observation over the last couple or three years that taking any advice from Amsdorf could lead to a catastrophic mistake that may either land you in bankruptcy court, or in prison. The OP in this thread is one of the most glaring examples. I only open his threads if/when I see that folks whose opinions on tactics I trust have started posting replies. Not-so-coincidentally methinks, most of those people have already posted in this thread. Thanks.

Blues

Point taken...

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[kelcarry]

I'm sure nobody has suggested shooting anyone in the back in this thread, or implied it. You are spot-on about shooting a retreating threat, and a free trip to jail, Navy.

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If you live in SC and attempt a citizen's arrest AT NIGHT (Only at night), based on the supposition or reality that someone is committing a felony, and they decide to evade your arrest, you can STOP THEM BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE INCLUDING DEATH. This means that if the BG is retreating you can shoot him in the back. Not for me and not for you but can be for anyone else.