Self-Defense Tactics For An Enraged Attacker/The Myth of Stopping Power

[superprincess]

With the latest incidents regarding people eating other people and guys gutting themselves and throwing chunks at the cops, I thought this would be of interest to some folks. It comes down to these two paragraphs:

"We have known for over a century that handgun rounds are not effective man-stoppers regardless of caliber, but writers and trainers continue to expound the virtues of one caliber or another. I recently had a very well-known instructor try to convince me the .45 will stop a determined attacker nine out of 10 times with a solid torso hit–even though I have a file full of cases that directly contradict this assertion."

"In a fight for your life, expect nothing to work and be prepared to do something else if you wish to prevail. Like bullets, we have known for centuries that the person who will win in conflict is not the one with the most gadgets or training: It is the more ruthless who will go to extremes to prevail. Unfortunately, such ruthlessness is seldom seen as reasonable in the eyes of the protected public. Good luck."

Link Removed

Thanks Wyldekard for this very informative post. I did hear about the naked cannibal in Florida performing his cannibalistic act on another unfortunate member of society. The other incident I haven't heard about, could you please send a link?

The trainers at Front Sight have this to say, I did this basic firearms test online today and got 4 1/2 of the answers correct.
Here is question

9) What do you feel is the best handgun caliber for general self defense?

.45 ACP
10mm
.40 S&W
.357 magnum
9mm
.38 Special
.380
.25
.22
Answer to Question #9: The debate over “the best fight stopping handgun caliber” will never end as long as there are ammunition manufacturers willing to pay for advertising in gun magazines and the “vanity articles” for their products that are written to encourage more advertising.

I go to much greater lengths to explain handgun stopping power and caliber selection in my Gun Training Reports, which I wrote for you. But, let’s say for right now that ALL handgun rounds are woefully inadequate stoppers compared to a shotgun or rifle. We carry handguns because we can conceal them and maintain an emergency defense weapon on our person.

The best answer of the choices given you above is the .45 ACP. Our grandfathers knew it in World War II and our grandfathers’ grandsons are figuring it out again in Iraq. A .45 ACP stops ‘em best.

There are a number of factors that I cover in My Gun Training Reports to further explain the best caliber, bullet weight, bullet shape, etc., to look for in your particular situation.

Again, the answer to question #9 is: .45 ACP

This was a question I got wrong, I chose answer .40 S&W

 

[walt629]

Black Talons are Illegal & Nuclear Powered?? Oh crap, I have two full boxes of those Godzilla killers. Now I'm worried, not about Godzilla anymore but for how much jail time I'm gonna get & Radiation sickness, jk.

NO! NO! NO! Black Talon ammunition is not and never has been illegal. It was removed from the market by Olin due to bad publicity afte shooting involving the use of the ammunition.

It may be Wiki, but here is some information and it is echoed by other searches. Black Talon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a matter of fact I carry a complete load of the 'today' version of the Talon. The Winchester SXZ40 PPD round is also produce by Olin, the original manufacturer of the Talon.

Good one Treo! :crazy_pilot:

 

[NCIC105]

The only fair fight is the one you just lost!

 

[-06]

A pastor buddy once told me that I seemed to have some Tyrannosaurus Rex genes in me--he meant it as a "slight" but I was right proud of it. He has finally come over to the "dark side". He and his wife both have their CCPs and are getting into preps rather nicely. Point is: I reacted to some noise coming from an adjacent room that sounded like gunfire(while at a meeting). I moved behind cover and drew w/o anyone seeing it--except him. Turned out to be metal chairs falling. Being ready to fire is what will put you ahead of the bad guy.

 

[Arc Angel]

It is the more ruthless who will go to extremes to prevail. Unfortunately, such ruthlessness is seldom seen as reasonable in the eyes of the protected public. Good luck.

The author is absolutely right! This is the reason, 'Why' I believe good Christian morality and strong personal convictions are so very important to quickly winning an always fast-paced CQB pistol gunfight.

When that gunfight starts it will be sudden; and whatever a combatant (or potential victim) brings to it MUST already be in place. A pistolero - a competent pistolero - knows that he doesn't have time to invent; he doesn't have time to decide. He'll be lucky, in fact, if he simply has time to act. When bullets are flying at or about the speed of sound, action always speaks louder than reaction.

After all, isn't this exactly the logic behind, 'Why' police officers always drawing their pistols, first, and often WELL BEFORE they actually need to use them. If this is sound confrontational logic for the law enforcement community then it should be sound confrontational logic for the general citizenry, too.

 

[fudo]

:victory:Two rounds to center mass until the activity stops.

Mozambique :biggrin:

 

[fudo]

I could be wrong but I heard the FBI doctrine is now to "Shoot until the BG goes down, If he gets up, shoot until he doesn't".

If it isn't, it ought to be.

 

[Wyldekard]

Thanks Wyldekard for this very informative post. I did hear about the naked cannibal in Florida performing his cannibalistic act on another unfortunate member of society. The other incident I haven't heard about, could you please send a link?

New Jersey man throws intestines at cops after repeatedly stabbing himself | Fox News

 

[fudo]

New Jersey man throws intestines at cops after repeatedly stabbing himself | Fox News

THANK YOU Wyldekard for posting that link. I worked on the security ward at out state's mental health facility for 13 years, and I met a lot of crazy people, even cannibals, but I never met anybody crazy enough to cut off body parts and throw them at the police. It's a wonder the police didn't shoot him. I guarantee that I'm not getting anywhere near somebody like that while they are still armed.

 

[Wyldekard]

THANK YOU Wyldekard for posting that link. I worked on the security ward at out state's mental health facility for 13 years, and I met a lot of crazy people, even cannibals, but I never met anybody crazy enough to cut off body parts and throw them at the police. It's a wonder the police didn't shoot him. I guarantee that I'm not getting anywhere near somebody like that while they are still armed.

I wouldn't get near him even if he was without weapons. It would seem he is capable of ripping off one of his arms and beating someone to death with it. I wonder if that happened, would the charges against him include "going armed with intent"?:biggrin:

 

[S&W645]

I wouldn't get near him even if he was without weapons. It would seem he is capable of ripping off one of his arms and beating someone to death with it. I wonder if that happened, would the charges against him include "going armed with intent"?:biggrin:

Would you be fighting an unarmed man? Or an armed man?

 

[rGlock36]

Black Talons are Illegal & Nuclear Powered?? Oh crap, I have two full boxes of those Godzilla killers. Now I'm worried, not about Godzilla anymore but for how much jail time I'm gonna get & Radiation sickness, jk.

NO! NO! NO! Black Talon ammunition is not and never has been illegal. It was removed from the market by Olin due to bad publicity afte shooting involving the use of the ammunition.

It may be Wiki, but here is some information and it is echoed by other searches. Black Talon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a matter of fact I carry a complete load of the 'today' version of the Talon. The Winchester SXZ40 PPD round is also produce by Olin, the original manufacturer of the Talon.

Good one Treo! :crazy_pilot:

The jk stood for just kidding :-X

 

[tcox4freedom]

I could be wrong but I heard the FBI doctrine is now to "Shoot until the BG goes down, If he gets up, shoot until he doesn't".

The only bad part about this policy is it could get "you" into trouble. We shoot to "STOP" the threat. Sometimes that threat will stop "without" going down. I've seen some supposed real bad^$$es begin to cry like a little baby after getting hit; but, they are still up walking around. (The threat was STOPPED; without them going down!)

So, if you continued to shoot until they went down you may be in some real trouble.

 

[Bttbbob]

i would hope an attacker would have the sense to stop after being hit once but ya never know what they want to do and or are capable of doing
be safe

Hope is neither a tactic nor a good strategy for self defense..........Sorry.

 

[superprincess]

With the latest incidents regarding people eating other people and guys gutting themselves and throwing chunks at the cops,
Link Removed

Thanks Wyldkard, I suppose the old saying "you can kill me but you can't eat me" doesn't apply any longer. Now they eat you while your still alive.

 

[eagleeyes]

hope is not a tactic that is true but still i would hope one stops after the first round if not well of course i know i will keep firing until the threat does stop perhaps even two quick rounds even but no i don't take for granted a perp will stop at the first shot by any means

 

[Bikenut]

This question of when should a person stop shooting an attacker is just as important, in a legal sense, as the question of when should a person start shooting because..................

The instant the attacker stops attacking that is the instant the threat of great bodily harm/death/rape also stopped........ and it is the instant your justification to use deadly force against the attacker stopped too.

But there isn't any set number of shots that can determine that since the attacker might stop after 1 shot... or only after 10 shots... or might not stop at all even after all the rounds available have been shot and the gun is empty.

So the reality of it is simple...

Keep shooting until the threat stops and then stop shooting. If the threat returns shoot again until the threat stops.

 

[Tucker's Mom]

Ah....!! that means if I have 15 rounds in my magazine, I can't shoot the 17th because there is no 17th???? Dang! That's pretty logical...:smile:

 

[tuts40]

Another example of an article that provides food for thought... It takes a level of deprivation to understand just how ruthless self defense can (should) be, and although I cannot wrap my head around just how depraved some "people" are, I find myself reading these articles trying to.

 

[Bikenut]

Ah....!! that means if I have 15 rounds in my magazine, I can't shoot the 17th because there is no 17th???? Dang! That's pretty logical...:smile:

Not trying to be a jerk (internet typed words often are easy to misunderstand) .... if you had 15 rounds but needed 17, and that is quite possible considering bad guys travel in packs now a days, you might want to consider carrying more ammo? :smile:

I always bring more ammo... but my spare magazine is already inside my spare gun (BUG) for two reasons....

-Mechanical things screw up at the worst possible time so if my primary gun pukes for any reason I have another one ready to go.

-I'm old.... my reflexes and physical manipulative abilities aren't what they used to be ... and practice at the range has shown me I can draw my back up faster than I can change a magazine... and drawing a back up does not have the chance of screwing up a mag change taking too much time when I won't have any time to waste.

But that's just me...........