Michael Brown

"Innocent" people? Cops today are no more innocent than the redcoats who enforced Britain's tyranny pre-American Revolution. If you think months of protests and the rioting that's taken place have been caused only by Michael Brown's and/or Eric Garner's deaths, or by the respective grand juries deciding their cases, you're terminally ignorant. Agree or disagree with the assertion, but black folk do believe in large percentages of their population that they are targeted, rather than protected, by government, just as Revolution-era Colonists thought the same thing, just as the people who flocked to Bunkerville last April and Olympia, WA just this past weekend think the same thing about how government relates to the whole population in general. There are more or less sophisticated, tactful, or diplomatic ways of saying it, but resistance to burgeoning or full-blown tyranny will always result in the pawns of government, law enforcement, being the first ones in line to feel it. To say black folk who feel so tyrannized by government that they're willing to kill to defend against the tyranny are nothing but "idiots" is to admit that you have no understanding of the nature of liberty or tyranny. You signed up, Andey. You put the target on your back on behalf of an ever-increasing tyrannical government against the interests of The People you swore to protect, defend and serve. The black folks may have the specifics of either recent case of death by cop wrong, but uprising and revolution is never about one or two specific cases to begin with. They're not "idiots," they're human beings responding exactly as every oppressed and/or abused and/or enslaved and/or hopeless and desperate group of people throughout the history of man have responded, and Bunkerville and Olympia prove they're not as isolated from the rest of this society as you might believe.

Look at my sig, Andey. Who do you imagine the phrase "Molon Labe" is directed at? Who do you imagine the phrase, "Don't Tread on Me" is directed at? I just posted a video of Mike Vanderboegh making a speech in Olympia this weekend in which he speaks of "Second Amendment remedies" to the unconstitutional gun control measures passed there a month or so ago. Who do you imagine those "remedies" will be imposed upon?

These are all statements of resistance, statements of refusal to accept or submit to illegitimate authority. They are implied threats. "Come and take them....if you dare." "Don't Tread on Me....or suffer the consequences." "Second Amendment remedies" is simply a more tactful and subtle way of saying, "We are willing to kill cops to protect our liberties."

I've been saying it since I joined this site, that people have got to pick a side. You did. The wrong side. 300 million+ guns in the private hands of free people, you're a government enforcer ready to impose tyrants' will upon the free citizenry's liberties, and you call the writers of that song "idiots?" Look in the mirror, Junior.

Blues
I'm not coming and taking anything. When such laws are passed where I live, I will be the one sitting at my home waiting for someone to try and take mine. Being a law enforcement officer does not make one exempt from such laws. Just like I can't have a Title II weapon. I may be able to keep my department issued weapons, but I've got many more personal items I'd like to hang on to that I would have to turn in as well. No what I signed up for is to protect and serve, that and only that. I did not sign up to tyrannize and take. Again, your assumption that EVERYONE with a badge is of that state of mind is, as you put it, terminally ignorant. You are even more ignorant to believe that a badge gives a person that black and white of a sense of things. I am We The People 1st, I am law enforcement 2nd. The best I can say about you is that you are a closed minded old man with a chip on his shoulder harboring stubborn assumptions about something he has had 0 experience with personally.

As stated in a video posted previously in this forum, the rich white man isn't sneaking into the projects at night spraying graffiti and breaking into houses. The people of those neighborhoods are doing it to themselves. Where I live, they are just as much white as they are black. I do not get to choose the color of skin that the person has when I get sent to a call. So far the majority of what I've heard is problems and hardly any solutions. And as the chief of Milwaukee said, those who gripe and complain about the problems are MIA when it's time to implement a solution. That's because there is no fix for a perceived injustice that is the product of those who perceived it.
 
But, I don't think they're are as many bad ones as most people think. I've had the pleasure of knowing many leading LE officials all across the southeast and I think aside from the well known bastions of liberalism across the country, LE as whole is fighting for us; not against us.


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Battle Lines | Southern Poverty Law Center


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/16/u...-laws-on-gun-control.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

'No' Sheriff in Town: Some Lawmen Refuse to Enforce Federal Gun Laws - NBC News

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP3CLgrdOJM

They're THOUSANDS of LEO's out there that are on the "RIGHT" side of things folks!

Same goes for military personnel & vets.

Personally, I'd trust any LEO I know over any politician I've ever heard about.

http://youtu.be/Q3Nx5MJNINQ

They're are sheriffs like this all across the country!

TC4F, I hope you know that I like and respect you, and that I have no personal axe to grind with you. If you didn't know before, now you do.

That said, related to the above posts, please tell us where one might find an example of those types of LEOs in action. Were they in Bunkerville? Oh Hell no they weren't. LEOs, both fed, state and local, tazed the son of Cliven Bundy and sic'ed a dog on him, knocked a pregnant woman to the dirt, killed several head of cattle, set up sniper nests that covered both the Bundy property and the militia encampment, and it has come out in the intervening months since the siege that the rumor about a possible drone strike that caused the rift between the Oath Keepers and militia members, was no rumor at all - it was being discussed at Justice in D.C. Maybe I can be forgiven for wondering if people like Andey or any of the folks you highlighted above would've stood with the militia or with Holder et al if they actually took that last fatal step, or for thinking that I probably know the answer to my own question. I believe events will unfold in the not-so-distant future that will tell me unequivocally if I'm right or wrong about that answer.

How about the Dorner manhunt? Were there any LEOs who refused to conduct the tens of thousands of illegal searches that took place in those several days across not only the four or five biggest counties in CA, but the biggest county in the entire nation? Were any of the eight cops who went completely berserk by opening fire on two separate pick-up trucks in the same neighborhood within a couple of minutes of each other, ever held accountable for their trigger-happy foolishness? How about the cops who can be heard on the radio ordering others at the cabin where Dorner was hole up to "Burn that F'ing house down?" Was anyone involved with burning a suspect alive ever held to account for their crimes?

The Boston Bomber manhunt, while in a much smaller area, went just about the same with literally hundreds of 4th Amendment violations playing themselves out on live TV and not one single cop stepping up to challenge it, or standing down in protest of it.

Those are just the most blatant and public examples off the top of my head. A bureaucrat sitting in an office somewhere getting face-time on their local news station and/or YouTube who has never shut down a border or DUI checkpoint, or made his SWAT team stand down in favor of simply knocking on a door and seeking cooperation before violently subduing grandmas and children, doesn't negate those extreme and very public examples, or the hundreds of thousands of unknown examples that we never hear about.

I don't doubt that every one of the folks you highlighted have the best of intentions, but the plain fact is, when the rubber hits the road, they will take all the usurpations from the Supreme Court all the way down to their City/County Councils and claim it's "within the law" to do that which clearly isn't. To think that the Framers of the Constitution contemplated that a free citizen would ever be forced to submit to various levels of searches for nothing more than driving down the road is a historically provable fallacy, yet I'll bet every single one of those folks you highlighted have both participated in, and organized, DUI blockades to catch people breaking the law, not on probable cause, or even the lower standard of RAS, but by casting a wide net and going on a fishing expedition.

As the saying goes, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Our rights should not be the asphalt with which cops pave that road, yet here we are in constitutional Purgatory, and the end of that road is close enough to see now.

Sorry. Words from Sheriffs just don't particularly move me anymore, and the fact is, they can change their minds about whatever they said in those videos and articles at any time for any or no reason at all, and their legislatures and the federal DoJ will back them no matter what. I find no comfort in their words at all. For the life of me, I can't figure out why smart, respectable and patriotic people would.

Blues
 
When I read that, I got the feeling it was penned by a very angry old white man, who was tired of seeing what I see... the crude references and use of the " N' word for shock value, etc. Now this could have been written by an angry black man. who was proud enough to do the right things in his life.. But, the points made could have come directly from my mouth....Michael, was a thug, was a felon, was a criminal, Darren Wilson did the world a favor by removing him from this world.. had he not done it, someone else would have... Trayvon Martin, the same thing. Many Blacks thinks the world owes them something.. there are also many good black, that even in the face of criticism from their own race, want to be good citizens, raise their family and see their children do better in this world then they did... The author may have been pissed off that rioters, and protestors to lawlessness only drag blacks down.. So if the black community makes some end rows in the area of respect.. people like Michael Brown and his supporter only take the black community two steps backward.. Lots of Black people have good lives go to school hold good jobs, see their children aspire to greatness, and even buck the stereotypical profile that these protestors want the world to see. Its harder for them to succeed when their own culture fight for them " Not to Succeed " calls them Uncle Tom's .. there social efforts at being Good, is called " that's being very White of you" Its sad for good black people to have to crawl out of the ghetto, that their own society throws in their face everyday.. they think guys Like Al Sharpton is in their corner?? they are so wrong.. without racial disharmony, Al Sharpton would be out of a job...
 
When I read that, I got the feeling it was penned by a very angry old white man, who was tired of seeing what I see... the crude references and use of the " N' word for shock value, etc. Now this could have been written by an angry black man. who was proud enough to do the right things in his life.. But, the points made could have come directly from my mouth....Michael, was a thug, was a felon, was a criminal, Darren Wilson did the world a favor by removing him from this world.. had he not done it, someone else would have... Trayvon Martin, the same thing. Many Blacks thinks the world owes them something.. there are also many good black, that even in the face of criticism from their own race, want to be good citizens, raise their family and see their children do better in this world then they did... The author may have been pissed off that rioters, and protestors to lawlessness only drag blacks down.. So if the black community makes some end rows in the area of respect.. people like Michael Brown and his supporter only take the black community two steps backward.. Lots of Black people have good lives go to school hold good jobs, see their children aspire to greatness, and even buck the stereotypical profile that these protestors want the world to see. Its harder for them to succeed when their own culture fight for them " Not to Succeed " calls them Uncle Tom's .. there social efforts at being Good, is called " that's being very White of you" Its sad for good black people to have to crawl out of the ghetto, that their own society throws in their face everyday.. they think guys Like Al Sharpton is in their corner?? they are so wrong.. without racial disharmony, Al Sharpton would be out of a job...
The Martin case was different. No one saw what actually happened. And Tray wasn't some convicted violent felon. GZ could be guilty but wasn't able to be convicted. I still think GZ was a wannabe who harassed and followed a lot of people. Eventually this turns bad... always does. The lesson? Don't follow or approach strangers as a neighborhood watch volunteer. Just watch for suspicious activity and call police. THAT is what neighborhood watch means. If GZ was following my friends and family I would have put my foot in his rear. That practice would have ended immediately. He's a mutt.
 
Tray???? a friend of yours???? ( Sorry I could not resist )"Tray had drugs in his system, his face book page showed him to be a thug... GZ was the guy with the broken nose and his head being smashed into the concrete sidewalk.. the only aggression was that From "Tray" he's the one that threw the first punch.. GZ was armed and could have been killed by his own gun.. luckily another thug was removed from this earth, another 18 year old thug who was under the influence.. has a face book page any thug would be proud of... " Tray was the Aggressor..... GZ was just following a suspicious looking person and as a watch Captain.. he was doing what he volunteered to do.... GZ at no point threatened " Tray "... even f he asked him what he was doing in this community. Tray has no right to attack him. GZ did not approach Tray with gun drawn, nor did he think his life was in danger.. it was not until Tray threw the first punch, got on top of him and started smashing his head into the sidewalk.. forensic evidence proved the event s to support GZ interpretation...
Now Did GZ goad TM?? did he call him names or try to piss him off>>???? who knows. but what we do know is that GZ did not draw down on him and only after being struck several times did he try to defend his life.. The Jury got it right....
When someone is on top of you, and you are a licensed to carry civilian, and the assailant has already assaulted you and was trying to kill you with head blows to the sidewalk... my question is, when does this action become life threatening.. after two strikes to the concrete or three. ..at what point has his head been so severely damages that he becomes a vegetable.. I would have shot him after the first punch. Just like in the Michael Brown circus... if that Merchant was armed, Darren Wilson would still have his job, and MB would still be dead.

Just to bring up a point about the similarities between TM and MB.. their face book pages were very similar...as far as you putting your foot up anyone's ass.. that makes you just as much a thug as TM... Obviously there was no issue with GZ carrying a weapon while being the watch Captain.. ... he had a right to defend himself... Just like Mike brown.. who teaches their kids to assault people?? Trash talk is one thing.. attacking a cop, or in the TM case attempting to do physical harm and following through to the point of deadly assault.. is a stupid thing to do.. who puts their hands on another human being??? Everyone knows, you cant use deadly force because you think someone might hurt you. Just like you can't shoot someone after they rob you and are running away.. there was no point where TM was threatened with deadly force to cause TM to attack GZ.. if GZ was in an attack mode he would have drawn his gun.
 
both these guys are obvious ;low lifes.. how do I know this///// the pictures shown of both TM and Michael Brown, showed some child who had yet not evolved into a low life.. pictures of TM when he was 8 years old.. why didn't the parents and the lawyers show picture from his present Face book page so everyone could see who they were at the time they committed these crimes and had to revert back to when they were still God's innocent children.
 
Tray???? a friend of yours???? ( Sorry I could not resist )"Tray had drugs in his system, his face book page showed him to be a thug... GZ was the guy with the broken nose and his head being smashed into the concrete sidewalk.. the only aggression was that From "Tray" he's the one that threw the first punch.. GZ was armed and could have been killed by his own gun.. luckily another thug was removed from this earth, another 18 year old thug who was under the influence.. has a face book page any thug would be proud of... " Tray was the Aggressor..... GZ was just following a suspicious looking person and as a watch Captain.. he was doing what he volunteered to do.... GZ at no point threatened " Tray "... even f he asked him what he was doing in this community. Tray has no right to attack him. GZ did not approach Tray with gun drawn, nor did he think his life was in danger.. it was not until Tray threw the first punch, got on top of him and started smashing his head into the sidewalk.. forensic evidence proved the event s to support GZ interpretation...
Now Did GZ goad TM?? did he call him names or try to piss him off>>???? who knows. but what we do know is that GZ did not draw down on him and only after being struck several times did he try to defend his life.. The Jury got it right....
When someone is on top of you, and you are a licensed to carry civilian, and the assailant has already assaulted you and was trying to kill you with head blows to the sidewalk... my question is, when does this action become life threatening.. after two strikes to the concrete or three. ..at what point has his head been so severely damages that he becomes a vegetable.. I would have shot him after the first punch. Just like in the Michael Brown circus... if that Merchant was armed, Darren Wilson would still have his job, and MB would still be dead.

Just to bring up a point about the similarities between TM and MB.. their face book pages were very similar...as far as you putting your foot up anyone's ass.. that makes you just as much a thug as TM... Obviously there was no issue with GZ carrying a weapon while being the watch Captain.. ... he had a right to defend himself... Just like Mike brown.. who teaches their kids to assault people?? Trash talk is one thing.. attacking a cop, or in the TM case attempting to do physical harm and following through to the point of deadly assault.. is a stupid thing to do.. who puts their hands on another human being??? Everyone knows, you cant use deadly force because you think someone might hurt you. Just like you can't shoot someone after they rob you and are running away.. there was no point where TM was threatened with deadly force to cause TM to attack GZ.. if GZ was in an attack mode he would have drawn his gun.
Drugs in Tray's system were inadmissible in the case. That's for a reason. Smoking a little weed isn't causing Tray to do anything wrong. It's prejudicial and has no bearing on the case. How about if you were accused of driving with a suspended license and the DA brought-up you once had a weed conviction. So what?
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If you have information you should have called the prosecutor. You seem to have facts no one has proven. You don't know if any of your claims are true. You don't know who threw the first punch. And do you know if you provoke another person by goading, threatening or harassing you may not then claim self defense? If you initiate any behavior that results in a physical altercation you are considered a mutual combatant. There were simply no witnesses and no way to know what happened. But I can tell you this... I wouldn't tolerate any self-proclaimed wannabe following my friends and family around. He'd get my foot in his rear.
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Lastly, call an attorney and ask for his advice. Tell him you're planning to actively patrol while armed, and that you have no training, no experience, no license as a security guard, no insurance and no education on the subject. See hat he tells you. GZ is a glaring example of everything one doesn't do.
 
Drugs in Tray's system were inadmissible in the case. That's for a reason. Smoking a little weed isn't causing Tray to do anything wrong. It's prejudicial and has no bearing on the case. How about if you were accused of driving with a suspended license and the DA brought-up you once had a weed conviction. So what?
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If you have information you should have called the prosecutor. You seem to have facts no one has proven. You don't know if any of your claims are true. You don't know who threw the first punch. And do you know if you provoke another person by goading, threatening or harassing you may not then claim self defense? If you initiate any behavior that results in a physical altercation you are considered a mutual combatant. There were simply no witnesses and no way to know what happened. But I can tell you this... I wouldn't tolerate any self-proclaimed wannabe following my friends and family around. He'd get my foot in his rear.
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Lastly, call an attorney and ask for his advice. Tell him you're planning to actively patrol while armed, and that you have no training, no experience, no license as a security guard, no insurance and no education on the subject. See hat he tells you. GZ is a glaring example of everything one doesn't do.
AS far as bringing up the weed... it was just a point being the defense showed a picture of an 8 year old kid
the bottom line here, is GZ was found innocent. The jury found the evidence could not support a conviction, and since we live in the United States.. this is our legal system.. Consider O.J. Simpson.. he was found innocent.. despite the views of millions of Americans.. there was no riots in the streets.. This was a Big time celebrity that got away with murder.. I have to live with that jury decision but I don't have to like it, I would never riot in the streets burn and loot over it..Nor would others.. The other interesting thing here is.. OJ showed who he actually was, and how his character proved him to be who he is..

There is no place in this universe where someone like Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin could be considered a good kid and a credit to our society.
 
TM and MB are so very different.

Brown is very clearly a bad guy. Martin acted like a tough guy, which most teenagers do, but didn't come anywhere near the sort of documented criminal history of Brown. Anyone else here think they were pretty bad ass when they were a teen? I don't imagine you all were good mama's boys that ate with a napkin on your lap and drank tea with your pinky up.

There was no reason for GZ to stalk and harass TM. I bet there are more than a few here that would take exception to being followed by a stranger who demanded to know what you were doing as you walked down a public sidewalk. Well too bad fellas, you better go to Zimmerman, hat in hand, and explain yourself or you'll get shot and apparently, he has legal authority to do it.
 
TM and MB are so very different.

Brown is very clearly a bad guy. Martin acted like a tough guy, which most teenagers do, but didn't come anywhere near the sort of documented criminal history of Brown. Anyone else here think they were pretty bad ass when they were a teen? I don't imagine you all were good mama's boys that ate with a napkin on your lap and drank tea with your pinky up.

There was no reason for GZ to stalk and harass TM. I bet there are more than a few here that would take exception to being followed by a stranger who demanded to know what you were doing as you walked down a public sidewalk. Well too bad fellas, you better go to Zimmerman, hat in hand, and explain yourself or you'll get shot and apparently, he has legal authority to do it.

Didn't you see the verdict, Zimmerman want guilty of stealing or harassment, or murder or manslaughter...you believed the botched grand jury in the Wilson case, but you didn't believe the jury in Zimmerman case?

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Didn't you see the verdict, Zimmerman want guilty of stealing or harassment, or murder or manslaughter...you believed the botched grand jury in the Wilson case, but you didn't believe the jury in Zimmerman case?

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Forget for a minute about this as a case. Just think about it as an event. What actually happened?

GZ sees TM. He follows him. He demands to know what TM is doing there. TM runs. GZ follows. At some point there is a fight and TM is shot and killed. This all sound about right?

As far as I remember, each of these details are agreed upon by both camps. There is a question of whether TM ambushed GZ or not, and if so... does that justify GZ using deadly force to defend himself at that point. The jury he got seems to believe that to be the case... While I don't agree that one should be able to claim self defense in a confrontation that he initiated, that case has been decided. But, what would you call all the things GZ did before the confrontation? That's what I am calling stalking and harassing. I also bet that if GZ treated some members here like this, that he would probably end up getting shot instead.
 
Forget for a minute about this as a case. Just think about it as an event. What actually happened?

GZ sees TM. He follows him. He demands to know what TM is doing there. TM runs. GZ follows. At some point there is a fight and TM is shot and killed. This all sound about right?

As far as I remember, each of these details are agreed upon by both camps. There is a question of whether TM ambushed GZ or not, and if so... does that justify GZ using deadly force to defend himself at that point. The jury he got seems to believe that to be the case... While I don't agree that one should be able to claim self defense in a confrontation that he initiated, that case has been decided. But, what would you call all the things GZ did before the confrontation? That's what I am calling stalking and harassing. I also bet that if GZ treated some members here like this, that he would probably end up getting shot instead.

I don't agree. GZ followed in his truck, TM ran, GZ got out to follow when dispatcher asked him which way TM ran. When dispatch realized he got out of his truck, they told him they didn't need him to do that, which he responded in the affirmative, and said he was returning to his truck. TM approached GZ, which is when GZ asked him what he was doing. TM then punched him and started bashing his head into the sidewalk. Then deadly force was used to stop the threat. GZ had medical records and pictures of his injuries. A jury found him innocent...but that doesn't matter...right?

Let's look at the Wilson event. Officer slams door into brown, threatens to kill him. Brown fights back to protect himself, gets shot in hand, runs, surrenders, and then gets shot to death. Multiple witness state this, or a very similar version of this. There seemingly is no medical report to back up Wilson being hit in the face, nor can see any swelling in the pictures...let alone Wilson was allowed to go back to the department and clean himself before any investigation. Grand jury doesn't indict after it was molested by the prosecution in favor of Wilson.

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AS far as bringing up the weed... it was just a point being the defense showed a picture of an 8 year old kid
the bottom line here, is GZ was found innocent. The jury found the evidence could not support a conviction, and since we live in the United States.. this is our legal system.. Consider O.J. Simpson.. he was found innocent.. despite the views of millions of Americans.. there was no riots in the streets.. This was a Big time celebrity that got away with murder.. I have to live with that jury decision but I don't have to like it, I would never riot in the streets burn and loot over it..Nor would others.. The other interesting thing here is.. OJ showed who he actually was, and how his character proved him to be who he is..

There is no place in this universe where someone like Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin could be considered a good kid and a credit to our society.

Interesting side point. You mentioned the O.J. Simpson case. You do realize that Mr. Simpson was civilly convicted on the same evidence that he got off on the criminal case. Karma. :wink:
 
I don't agree. GZ followed in his truck, TM ran, GZ got out to follow when dispatcher asked him which way TM ran. When dispatch realized he got out of his truck, they told him they didn't need him to do that, which he responded in the affirmative, and said he was returning to his truck. TM approached GZ, which is when GZ asked him what he was doing. TM then punched him and started bashing his head into the sidewalk. Then deadly force was used to stop the threat. GZ had medical records and pictures of his injuries. A jury found him innocent...but that doesn't matter...right?

Let's look at the Wilson event. Officer slams door into brown, threatens to kill him. Brown fights back to protect himself, gets shot in hand, runs, surrenders, and then gets shot to death. Multiple witness state this, or a very similar version of this. There seemingly is no medical report to back up Wilson being hit in the face, nor can see any swelling in the pictures...let alone Wilson was allowed to go back to the department and clean himself before any investigation. Grand jury doesn't indict after it was molested by the prosecution in favor of Wilson.

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Your version of events is not supported by the testimony of TM's girlfriend who was on the phone with him most of the time.

In the case of Wilson, there were lots of witnesses who claimed all sort of conflicting things. I don't know what really happened and honestly didn't follow it that closely due to work commitments, but from what I have read, Brown is a bad guy with plenty of recorded violent criminal history. That makes him very different than a kid with a dirty twitter handle who liked to smoke pot and got a few suspensions from school.
 
Your version of events is not supported by the testimony of TM's girlfriend who was on the phone with him most of the time.

In the case of Wilson, there were lots of witnesses who claimed all sort of conflicting things. I don't know what really happened and honestly didn't follow it that closely due to work commitments, but from what I have read, Brown is a bad guy with plenty of recorded violent criminal history. That makes him very different than a kid with a dirty twitter handle who liked to smoke pot and got a few suspensions from school.

My version of events is backed by what a jury decided was true after a full trial.

I read a false report of Browns juvenile record...has his actual juvenile record been released?

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