Ya did good, Ga9.
Inform the officer or not when concealed carry?
- Thread starter Pele
- Start date
Ya did good, Ga9.
kengrubb
New member
I was unable to find the reporting of incidents of LEOs accosted by a nutbar anywhere in the Link Removed.
However, Link Removed did give a really good, concise breakdown of the 530 LEOs feloniously killed between 1999 and 2008:
122 - Arrest situation
106 - Ambush situation
101 - Traffic pursuit/stop (38 felony vehicle stop, 63 traffic violation stop)
76 - Disturbance call (41 domestic disturbance, 35 other disturbance)
62 - Investigating suspicious person/circumstance
29 - Tactical situation (barricaded offender, hostage taking, high-risk entry, etc.)
13 - Handling, transporting, custody of prisoner
12 - Handling person with mental illness
9 - Investigative activity (surveillance, search, interview, etc.)
LEOKA reporting does not distinguish between traffic stops and traffic pursuit/stops among the 63 traffic violation stops. I would assert there is a world of difference between the danger inherent in a pursuit stop versus a traffic violation stop sans pursuit. Also, domestic disturbance calls, contrary to mythology, aren't the most dangerous endeavor known to LE.
torontogunguy
New member
And that is the reason EXACTLY. Flash a piece of gun and at the least you are going to be eating the pavement for a while. I go one step further in keep my CCW permit with my DL/insurance/registration and present the package to the officer - advise him if I am carrying.
A while back we were driving to see a friend in a larger metropolitan area and stopped to use the payphone (don't ask) to ask him how to get to where he was. His response was "get back in your car and drive ten or fifteen minutes IN ANY DIRECTION and call me back". We were in druggy alley, 'the hood', whatever. Had we been stopped and flashed a piece of metal from our belt Lord knows what would have happened. That was actually a while back.... and sticks in my mind regularly. I base my decision on THAT amongst other things.
Now we have GPS (does not guarantee you won't wind up in 'the hood').
FWIW.
torontogunguy
New member
I did not mean to imply that they were, only that they were on the list of bad experiences. We have had LEO's killed here while delivering a summons in an apartment building to a witness; while sitting on stakeout in a parking lot (stabbed in the neck by drugheads); and one of the latest, and a friend of mine unfortunately, while making a routine stop and he never saw it coming. Rob was there one second and dead the next. So, yes, you are correct that there is a world of difference in a pursuit stop versus a traffic violation stop sans pursuit, but the fact is that it is mostly when your guard is down, even for a second, that trouble finds you, pursuit or not.
The numbers and risk situations are changing all the time... take a look at the statistics for a few years prior and you will see the changes forming. Pursuits are better managed today with larger towns purchasing or leasing choppers and equipping them with FLIR and spotlights to eliminate or reduce the high speed ground chases. LEO's have better body armour and are now carrying shotguns and rifles more than ever before. Calls are being handled differently based on past experience (and training is changing to go along with that).
Nontheless, my point was really that not only is it a much appreciated common courtesy but for those of us that travel state to state by car a lot it negates just one more potential foulup on our part. Same reason my magazines for carry are all ten rounders max. I don't want to be caught in a state where having a larger magazine despite the number of rounds loaded is a felony. Same reason I make it a rule not to carry into schools, federal buildings, etc. (the common denominator locations). Etc.
For those that live and work in one state and have never left the state the situation may be slightly different but with regards to showing my CCW 'permit' my action will always be the same. Show the permit along with my DL package all the time. That way I also don't have to remember if the state requires me to or not. Lord knows I have enough trouble remembering to keep the tank filled.
My feeling is that if there is no harm in it I'd rather be safe than sorry.
NJ is my one big exception and I am trying to figure out how to handle NJ. No permit recognized. No point showing it as you are asking for trouble especially as they consider the mere possession of a hollow point round to be a felony. Full stop. So I'm driving all over the place and decide to visit the family in NJ. What does one do? Thus far, my plan is NOT to show my CCW permit and to have the gun and magazines locked up in my safe in the back of the car (Harbour Freight $49). But what do I do about the hollowpoints? I read recently about the gal from NY stopped in NJ where they found a single hollowpoint round floating around in the wheel well in her trunk and arrested her. THAT is my sole exception at this point. Headsup fellows. If you think NY is gun unfriendly (I personally don't) you just haven't been to NJ yet. Or north of the 49th.
N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:
(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].
Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).
Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows: Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).
1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
3.A person going directly to a target range, and;
4.A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."
Link Removed
2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
3.A person going directly to a target range, and;
4.A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."
Link Removed
utimmer43
New member
Allow me to translate...
YOU don't have a NJ CCW ("YOU" meaning anyone who is reading this) and therefore are obviously not "carrying" in public with hollowpoints. So basically, as long as you are transporting your firearm within the NJ law, your hollowpoints are OK to go along for the ride.
kengrubb
New member
I guess I'm somewhat confused. I agree that cops face a lot of dangers, but knowing there's someone with a concealed carry license and then being able to relax leaves me wondering what really changed. Should cops be more relaxed or more on guard?
If everyone with a license to carry became conditioned during a traffic stop to tell cops "I've got a license to carry", and if the cops then became conditioned to relax a little upon hearing that, then I suspect there'd be a few dead cops out there who heard, "It's OK officer, I've got a license to carry" and it then became the last thing they heard before being shot dead by a wanted felon working on his third strike.
Having reported stolen vehicles in a nationwide database, accessible to cops everywhere, and a standard procedure of running every plate of every vehicle during every traffic stop would seem to me a far better way to protect LEOs during traffic stops.
My apologies in advance as I plead guilty to overanalyzing everything.
"Telling" a LEO that you have a carry permit is NOT the same thing as presenting the permit along with your other documentation.
"A wanted felon on his third strike" will obviously NOT have a carry permit.
bill
To y'all: Does anyone think that we have replied this thread to death? In SC, if you have your CCW with you, the law says you must offer your CCWP to an LEO--period--end of story. If you do not have your CCW or you live in a state where there are no requirements---it is up to you to decide--period--end of story. As more states get more detailed in their computer searches, drivers licenses and CCWP may show up in an LEO search, in which case, depending on the LEO, you may find no further discussion, or further suspicious discussion if you did not offer the CCWP, whether you were in possession of your CCW or not--period--end of story.
utimmer43
New member
You do have the ability to unsubscribe to the thread.
Hey utimmer43: Lighten up a bit--just stating an obvious and the fact that I even replied with the previous post should have given you some pause to appreciate the light-heartedness of the comment. Sorry you seem to have been concerned with my conclusion that required a reply but I still enjoy the "banter" even if it goes around in a big circle of comments.
maybejim
Maybejim
I had to undergo 4 hours for one of my renewals for Kalifornia. $300+ and a total waste of time. Anyone who flunked it would have had to be a real nutcase. Surprisingly, I ran into a father/son duo who flunked it.
Each state manages to have PIA rules tagged onto their CCW laws, to pander to the anti's and attempt to discourage participation, some are more anti gun than others once they realize that there were no "shoot outs in the streets" and the crime rate actually did go down they mellow out. Here in MI we have been working to slowly get rid of ours one at a time, n you can too, just get politically active and make it so...
I'm not concerned if the cop who pulls me over, and who I've refused to answer questions, considers me as suspicious. It really isn't my problem, providing I'm following what the law requires. His job, if he is confronting me with a suspected crime / civil matter is to investigate and then cite or arrest. My requirements are to do what is legally necessary, nothing more. So if the cop feels I'm suspicious because of me enforcing my rights under both federal and state constitutions, something is seriously flawed with the system. The people are supposed to have their rights trump the government's - not the other way around.
If the LEO already knows that I have my license to carry, there is no need to ask me. That would be a waste of time. I'm not required to inform, so I don't. So if he asks, I wouldn't answer. If he asks if I'm carrying, I wouldn't answer. I'm perfectly legal to carry at almost all times, and assuming he didn't pull me over for a gun-related issue, it is irrelevant to the stop.
You said in your post that if asked to present your weapon, you would seem to have no obligation to do so. This is generally true (in most states). But you have no obligation to even speak to any LEO, so why would you do that either, unless you choose to under your own free will in contrast with "what you should do"?
If it was legal to have a firearm where you started your trip, and it would be legal to have a firearm at your family's house in NJ, you are legal in transporting the firearm through NJ, provided it is locked up out of the driver's compartment. This is all per federal law.
Hollowpoints are not illegal in NJ, just restrictive. Hell, EVERYTHING is restrictive in the People's Republic of New Jersey. I've purchased ammo in NJ, including HP rounds. Nothing illegal in buying or transporting them.
Then again, put them in a safe in the trunk like you said, and never allow a search. You can't have any problems unless you're doing something illegal enough to warrant a legal search of your car!
Hey rayven: I appreciate everything you have said and it seems to come down "to each his own" on how you react with an LEO, but I just wonder why some form of accomodation and appreciation of where the LEO is coming from just does not seem to be in your vocabulary. Common sense tells me that regardless of your very high ideals regarding your liberties and rights, you will, in the long run have a problem with an LEO--you may be 100% right but you will have a problem.
drt
New member
Rights
This brings to mind a situation with my wife some years ago.
She zoomed through a green stop light with out looking either way. I questioned her as to why she was not more careful. She responded that she had the right of way. She was absolutely correct that she had the right to continue on her path and she trusted other vehicles to yield to her right. I advised her that she was correct but that did not protect her from the possibility of being "DEAD RIGHT". I have personally observed cars speeding through intersections, one was a fleeing bank robber, where they did not have the right of way. Anyone being in that intersection at that time could possibly have been "DEAD RIGHT".
In my past I was a sworn LEO. I have been on both sides and I always appreciated citizens that were aware of the hazards presented to officers on a daily basis.
There are some rights that are non-negotiable. I do respect LEOs and if I can help them be at ease I have no problem advising I have a permit and am carrying.
I know some LEOs are jerks. However, the great majority of them are considerate fellow human beings and I will cut them slack when possible.
I know the situations are not the same, however, being cantankerous/non-compliant with an LEO on the street is not the place I would choose to make a stance.
Some attitudes will only escalate a situation. Someone's rights may be violated and one may sue, after the fact, if they are able, if not they may be "DEAD RIGHT". Then the family may sue.
Just one law abiding concealed carry American's opinion. Even thought I do not agree with some posts, I respect their RIGHT to voice same.
I didn't intend to be so long winded but things just kept popping up. :smile:
This brings to mind a situation with my wife some years ago.
She zoomed through a green stop light with out looking either way. I questioned her as to why she was not more careful. She responded that she had the right of way. She was absolutely correct that she had the right to continue on her path and she trusted other vehicles to yield to her right. I advised her that she was correct but that did not protect her from the possibility of being "DEAD RIGHT". I have personally observed cars speeding through intersections, one was a fleeing bank robber, where they did not have the right of way. Anyone being in that intersection at that time could possibly have been "DEAD RIGHT".
In my past I was a sworn LEO. I have been on both sides and I always appreciated citizens that were aware of the hazards presented to officers on a daily basis.
There are some rights that are non-negotiable. I do respect LEOs and if I can help them be at ease I have no problem advising I have a permit and am carrying.
I know some LEOs are jerks. However, the great majority of them are considerate fellow human beings and I will cut them slack when possible.
I know the situations are not the same, however, being cantankerous/non-compliant with an LEO on the street is not the place I would choose to make a stance.
Some attitudes will only escalate a situation. Someone's rights may be violated and one may sue, after the fact, if they are able, if not they may be "DEAD RIGHT". Then the family may sue.
Just one law abiding concealed carry American's opinion. Even thought I do not agree with some posts, I respect their RIGHT to voice same.
I didn't intend to be so long winded but things just kept popping up. :smile:
