Inform the officer or not when concealed carry?

[MatthewK]

Hello, first post on the forum! I am awaiting my CCW here in VA, and between now and when I receive it, I am spending a majority or my research time learning about the responsibility aspect of carrying, what constitutes deadly force, what to do in situations etc... to me, this is infinitely more important than what holster fits the best or 9mm vs .40 vs .45 :laugh:

Anyways, the topic of this thread is something I have great interest in, and feel that it is something I am more liable to face on a day-to-day basis than the use of deadly force.

In VA we are not obligated to inform; that being said, what if the officer runs my plates and discovers that I have a CCW, or if I do hand the CCW over w/ my license, asks me why I didn't tell or where the weapon is, and then asks me for the gun? First of all, would that ever happen? Can he just up and take my handgun for no reason? What should I do in this situation?

The last thing in the world that any of us would want is to be pulled out at gunpoint or arrested etc. I really hope that in the event I do get into a situation involving a LEO, that things go as smoothly as possible and I don't cause them to go off on me.

 

[utimmer43]

In VA we are not obligated to inform; that being said, what if the officer runs my plates and discovers that I have a CCW, or if I do hand the CCW over w/ my license, asks me why I didn't tell or where the weapon is, and then asks me for the gun? First of all, would that ever happen? Can he just up and take my handgun for no reason? What should I do in this situation?

The last thing in the world that any of us would want is to be pulled out at gunpoint or arrested etc. I really hope that in the event I do get into a situation involving a LEO, that things go as smoothly as possible and I don't cause them to go off on me.

The most important thing is to exercise common sense. Keep your hands visible, don't touch your gun etc.

I think if you read this entire thread you will find just about every possible argument for and against informing an LEO, as well as how to handle your self during the stop weather you decide to inform or not. After you're through, you should be able to decide what your preference is.

 

[oldvet53]

in arkansas it's required to inform, hand dl. and ccw lisence as a red flag comes up with dl. so be up front, better than not telling and him find it in a search!

 

[mrjam2jab]

what if the officer runs my plates and discovers that I have a CCW

in arkansas it's required to inform, hand dl. and ccw lisence as a red flag comes up with dl.

25 pages in this thread...I've seen comments similar to above several times...and i gotta ask:

Why do states do this? 99 out of 100 carry license holders are law-abiding people. Why do the states feel its necessary to link DMV and carry license info to warn the officer?

 

[utimmer43]

25 pages in this thread...I've seen comments similar to above several times...and i gotta ask:

Why do states do this? 99 out of 100 carry license holders are law-abiding people. Why do the states feel its necessary to link DMV and carry license info to warn the officer?

My guess is that it was a "condition" of passing RTC laws. Something to make the antis feel a little more at ease over the public being allowed to carry a gun. A bunch of illogical horseshit IMO.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey rayven and others on this thread: Obviously from the many posts there is a distinct difference of opinion here that will NEVER be solved by these posts; to each his own and each side has legitimate arguments. I would say that when I read about the "10%" meaning the supposed 10% of aggressive LEOs, it should be pointed out by the "tone" of many of the posters, there are also the "10%" of drivers (and some of them have been posting) who are just as aggressive and passionate about their "rights". I would only say that if you have ever been riding along with an LEO (and in my town you can do that as many times as you want) you appreciate, particularly at night, the uncertainties of a vehicle stoppage for legitimate reasons (certainly among the posters are those who say that "10%" of LEOs do not stop vehicles for legitimate reasons) are not a walk in the park; any sort of problem that the LEO is faced with, including statements and actions consistent with civil and constitutional rights, done quietly and civilly or done with a voiciferous tone, is, by its very nature going to be met with suspicion. If this is a major problem for many of you, so be it--in this country you have the right to your ideals but I do not believe you can expect an LEO to just la di da when faced with any kind of confrontation--quietly intelligent or not, when, if he makes a mistake, it could cost him his life. As states become more computerized, the LEOs are beginning to know right away that someone has a CCWP and you cannot deny that if that information is not passed on to the LEO, he will be suspicious. If he asks you, he probably already knows and it would seem your answer should be yes. If he asks to see the CCWP, you should probably show it to him. If he asks whether you are armed, you should probably say yes. If he asks to have you present your weapon it would seem you have no obligation to do so. Just another opinion to keep this thread moving along with unbridled energy.

 

[PIG USMC]

Hello All, and thanks for the replies relevant to my post. Opinions, even contrary to my point of view are informative and I welcome he discourse.

As I said earlier, I’ve been teaching CCW for a bit more than 15 years. My bond with my students is that if they are involved in a shooting, I’ll be there and part of their defense. I literally have hundreds of students motoring around Virginia, West Va and N. Carolina and in all that time have only had one who was asked to “Produce” her gun and one who was involved in a defensive shooting. The one asked to produce her gun was years ago and as tactics and training has evolved, officers typically are taught NOT to do this. I realize that Dept policies differ, but not one that I am aware of have the officer asking for the gun from a CCW holder. Of course this does not apply if the CCW holder is being stopped for DWI, violence of some sort or a warrant. That is why I would call the training officer or supervisor if that occurred. The officer would clearly be in violation of dept policy and some education would be called for. I have sat on use of force boards. Departments are constantly refining their tactics and policies and as the law changes these policies and procedures put strains on training and the officers must adapt. Yes I am all for cooperation with LEO’s. I like cops. But no one tramples on me either, but I know that a p%ss%ing match on the side of the road is not a good venue. I also rode with an MC and carried. I was stopped for imagined PC just because #1 I was a biker and #2 I was armed ( My pipes are a bit loud as well) and #3 my three piece patch looked a great deal like an outlaw dominant club in our area. After handing over my three pieces of info I asked the officer how me carrying is any different than if I was driving my pickup with a gun rack? Well any way, discussion is great. Thanks again.
Max

 

[kelcarry]

Question and atatement keep coming up as to why an LEO would even ask you about CCWP and why states tie it to your vehicle license. IMO I do not believe the answer is part of a great anti-gun conspiracy: 1) some states mandate it IF you are CC. In SC, a state favorable to gun ownership and CC (for heavens sake we just had a tax free weekend on purchase of guns and nothing else) it is mandatory as part of CCWP that you show CCWP when you are stopped by an LEO 2) an LEO stopping a auto for a legitimate reason (let's not get into the w/o reason argument) does not know who or what he is dealing with and the more information he has and the more coorperation he gets puts him at ease and prevents potential problems--may sound silly to some but it's common sense to me.
I do have a questions though: SC CCWP law does not, I believe, distinguish a traffic stop by an LEO, whether you have your CCW in the car or not--it just states that if you are stopped, you must present your CCWP. Is that correct? The law does not say anything about presenting your firearm if requested by the LEO--I assume you are not obligated to present---I am sure somewhere in the system there is some mechanism for LE to see and take possession of your CCW--how and when does that scenario play out? Personally I have no problem with being totally cooperative with an LEO--it has always served me well. Just would like to know the real limits of my CCWP responsibility per SC law

 

[mrjam2jab]

I do have a questions though: SC CCWP law does not, I believe, distinguish a traffic stop by an LEO, whether you have your CCW in the car or not--it just states that if you are stopped, you must present your CCWP. Is that correct?

Must inform ONLY if you have the weapon in the car.

SECTION 23-31-215. Issuance of permits.

(K) A permit holder must have his permit identification card in his possession whenever he carries a concealable weapon. When carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 23, a permit holder must inform a law enforcement officer of the fact that he is a permit holder and present the permit identification card when an officer (1) identifies himself as a law enforcement officer and (2) requests identification or a driver's license from a permit holder. A permit holder immediately must report the loss or theft of a permit identification card to SLED headquarters. A person who violates the provisions of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined twenty-five dollars.

The law does not say anything about presenting your firearm if requested by the LEO--I assume you are not obligated to present---I am sure somewhere in the system there is some mechanism for LE to see and take possession of your CCW--how and when does that scenario play out? Personally I have no problem with being totally cooperative with an LEO--it has always served me well. Just would like to know the real limits of my CCWP responsibility per SC law

If i was in a "Must inform" state...i certainly wouldnt "present" the firearm. If LEO asks where it is I'll tell him...but I wouldnt expect LEO take possession of it. The less it is handled the safer it is for all involved.

 

[torontogunguy]

Ok guys. This has been going on for so long and in so many threads I decided to ask. Right from the horse's mouth.

If you are carrying ALWAYS present your 'permit' and ALWAYS 'ask how the LEO would like to handle it'. Period.

The answer received to the question 'what if I have a permit and I am not carrying?' - the answer was a toss up and the response was that it generally would not make a difference but that as a matter of courtesy, handing over the permit with your vehicle records (D/L, registration, etc.) could be taken as a matter of professional courtesy and could turn a tense moment for the LEO into something more relaxed.

If I am not mistaken, traffic stops follow only domestic dispute calls, where the LEO may be accosted by a nutbar with a firearm. As of late I note that traffic stops are taking on the aura of a felony stop.... one officer approaching from each side and stopping behind the doorpost so that a weapon coming up is visible and more difficult to aim for the bad guy. LEO's with hand on firearm. Etc. There is a reason for this and the reason is simple. It is getting more dangerous out there. The criminals are not getting their permits and registering their handguns! Showing that you are a good guy up front is appreciated is what I took from the answers I received. The LEO goes home at the end of the day not quite so stressed out and tired.

So without any further ado, I pronounce "ALWAYS TELL, NEVER SHOW" as my final answer although I have used 'one lifeline' to get there.

Never reach for anything unexpectedly without asking and never show a handgun or reach for one if you expect to depart unscathed.

As expected, this was not rocket science and the rest of you guys are welcome to go on debating.

Final answer.

 

[SteveB]

Well, I don't know about where you come from Torontogunguy, but, in most places, traffic stops occur for various reasons, not just "following domestic dispute calls" as you said. I agree with most every thing else you said. Always better to be "safe than sorry". Present your permit with DL and vehicle registration papers, you should be good to go.

 

[SteveB]

I don't know why "registration" was in green in my last post. It brings up some kind of link when I hover over it. That was NOT my doing. I am going to try to change it. Ok, change worked, never mind

 

[utimmer43]

I don't know why "registration" was in green in my last post. It brings up some kind of link when I hover over it. That was NOT my doing. I am going to try to change it. Ok, change worked, never mind

That is most likely adware on your computer. I've had it happen, not exclusively on this site. Run an adware removal program and you shouldn't see it again.

BTW, what TGG was saying was that the likelihood that an LEO encounters a wacko with a gun during a traffic stop is second only to the likelihood that he would encounter the same while answering a domestic dispute call.

 

[bbarton713]

Well, I don't know about where you come from Torontogunguy, but, in most places, traffic stops occur for various reasons, not just "following domestic dispute calls" as you said. I agree with most every thing else you said. Always better to be "safe than sorry". Present your permit with DL and vehicle registration papers, you should be good to go.

I believe he meant that in order of when it is most likely that a cop will have to deal with a weapon:

1. domestic dispute calls
2. traffic stops. leasantry:

 

[torontogunguy]

I believe he meant that in order of when it is most likely that a cop will have to deal with a weapon:

1. domestic dispute calls
2. traffic stops. leasantry:

Yes, thank you. Although not necessarily #1 and #2 on the list depending on where you are. In some areas it is 'druggies alley' at the top of the list, but for the mundane towns I think the above is closer to correct. Any LEO's on here care to comment on their experiences?

(Keeping in mind that a "shots fired" call is going to be a little higher on the list) :wacko:

 

[kengrubb]

Why do states do this? 99 out of 100 carry license holders are law-abiding people. Why do the states feel its necessary to link DMV and carry license info to warn the officer?

As utimmer43 said, condition of getting an RTC law passed. The states have been coming up with all sorts of "curious and interesting" provisions in their RTC laws in recent years.

- Must notify an officer
- Can't carry in a state park
- Can't carry in a bank
- Can't carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol (so I can't carry when I take my kids to Applebees for burgers, fries and cokes?)
- Must be 23 (in Missouri)
- Must be 25 (law when RTC first passed in New Mexico)
- Must complete state approved training curriculum (so all my training at the Firearms Academy of Seattle, Lethal Force Institute, and a class taught by the late Jim Cirillo don't count?)
- The list of licensees shall be available for publication in newspapers, including one's home address

Here in Washington, as is the case in most of the other "Old Wave" (pre Florida RTC) states, we don't have to put up with this sort of B.S.

If any of the remaining May Issue states ever goes Shall Issue, I have expect one of them will demand that an applicant submit to 8 hours of psychiatric testing annually as a condition of renewal.

 

[Ga9mm]

I went through a road block a while back, and was carrying on my hip, but covered by a jacket. My wallet was on the same side, back pocket. When the officer came to my window, he asked for my license. I told him I had a firearm on me, and had to reach behind it to get to my wallet. I asked how he wanted me to do it. He said to lean to the side enough, and go slow. I went slow enough that I almost fell asleep!! I took my dl and my permit out and gave him both at the same time. He looked at each of them, handed them back, thanked me for informing him, and I went on my way. I think that I would do it as a precaution. I can't think of any LEO's that like surprises like seeing a gun hidden on someone...

 

[utimmer43]

I went through a road block a while back, and was carrying on my hip, but covered by a jacket. My wallet was on the same side, back pocket. When the officer came to my window, he asked for my license. I told him I had a firearm on me, and had to reach behind it to get to my wallet. I asked how he wanted me to do it. He said to lean to the side enough, and go slow. I went slow enough that I almost fell asleep!! I took my dl and my permit out and gave him both at the same time. He looked at each of them, handed them back, thanked me for informing him, and I went on my way. I think that I would do it as a precaution. I can't think of any LEO's that like surprises like seeing a gun hidden on someone...

OK, here is where I believe common sense dictated that you inform the officer, and if I were in the same situation I would have handled it similarly. However, I do not keep my wallet in my pocket. I keep it in the cupholder on the center console. My DL, registration, and insurance card are all in my wallet. If I am stopped, I have those documents in my hand before my car even comes to a complete stop. If I am requested to do something that I believe will make my firearm visible,(like get out of the car) then sure I will inform ahead of time. But not for a simple "license, registration, and insurance card please."

Bottom line for me is use common sense.

 

[JJFlash]

OK, here is where I believe common sense dictated that you inform the officer, and if I were in the same situation I would have handled it similarly. However, I do not keep my wallet in my pocket. I keep it in the cupholder on the center console. My DL, registration, and insurance card are all in my wallet. If I am stopped, I have those documents in my hand before my car even comes to a complete stop. If I am requested to do something that I believe will make my firearm visible,(like get out of the car) then sure I will inform ahead of time. But not for a simple "license, registration, and insurance card please."

Bottom line for me is use common sense.

I agree that this was handled appropriately given the circumstances. I keep my registration, insurance card, etc. on a clip on my driver's side visor. This way NOTHING gets opened in the truck (console, glove, etc.) and my hands stay at around 12 o'clock at all times. Then, I choose whether to inform or not (we're not required to) depending on the situation (late at nite - inform, keep LEO comfortable, LEO's a dick, no inform).

Just me.

 

[Ga9mm]

I did that because I was pretty sure that when I took off my seatbelt, leaned over a little bit to get to my wallet, he would have seen it, had he been looking. I turned on the inside lights as I pulled up, and he had a light, so I didn't want to take any chances. If I had it in my back, he would have never known.