I am I mentally prepared to defend myself

[gestu1]

To me all life is sacred. However, I am prepared to take a life if it means protecting myself, an innocent victim or my family. I hope that time never comes.

 

[docholiday]

To me all life is sacred. However, I am prepared to take a life if it means protecting myself, an innocent victim or my family. I hope that time never comes.

Amen Brother

 

[Husky Girl]

I think your fear is a valid one. I think most gun-owners/carriers have made the decision that their life and their family's lives are more important than that of a bad guy, but what about a stranger's life? Then we have to ask the question - is a stranger's life more valuable than mine? I think the answer is no.

When I first began to carry, my mother was terrified. We were going shopping and she saw me put my gun on my ankle. She asked, "What if we go to the bank and someone tries to rob it? What will you do?" I replied, "Try to be a good witness." I explained to her that my little revolver is a defensive weapon. Unless someone is trying to kill me (or her, when she is with me), it stays in its holster. I think civilians are fortunate in that we do not have a legal duty to act when we observe a crime. In most cases, I would simply try to stay out of the way and be a good witness.

However, I think the scenario you described raises the question of our moral duty to act. I have often thought that I would "do something" if I was in either of the situations you described (witnessing a rape in progress or a mall shooting). When I discussed this with my boyfriend, a police officer, he asked me what my goal was in "doing something." I said, "to stop anyone else from being hurt, of course." Then he asked if shooting someone would be the most effective way of accomplishing that goal. In many cases, it would not be. In most instances, even the one involving an active shooter at the mall (or a school, etc), the most valuable thing you could do woudl be a witness - call the police, tell them what is going on, advise them as to your abilities and ask them what you should do. Remember - you carry a gun to protect yourself... what is the point if you end up in jail? The situation may arise where shooting the BG is possible without harming anyone else, but personally, I would not want to fire my gun in a crowded place, under stress. The likelihood that I would hurt someone other than the BG is high, and then I would also be putting my own life unnecessarily in danger and complicating the situation for responders.

Keep in mind when you are running through scenarios in your head (this is a wonderful way to prepare and something I do often), going to your gun may not always accomplish what you want to accomplish, and it may do more harm than good.

 

[HK4U]

Here in Texas the Dept. of Public safety teaches the CHL instructors. During my last refresher class one of the DPS instructors talked about the active shooter in a mall setting and basically he was telling us that if we are trained and armed it is our responsibility as a citizen to try and stop the carnage if we are there and can. Of course if my family is with me my first responsibility is to make sure they are safe. After that or if I am alone you better believe if it is at all possable I will do what I can to take the BG out. I will not stand by and watch some mad dog systematically gun down innocent people. I have not spent time and money on training to stand by and do nothing.

 

[gdcleanfun]

I stand on the fence between the two of you. Stay with me here as I reason this out.

I'm not a lawyer, this is not advice, but I've studied the laws a bit as a trained paralegal.

There are "Good Samaritan" laws (GSLs), at least those with which I'm familiar from California, that tell us we MUST help our family, loved ones, but only that we CAN help if we are ready, willing, and able, without recourse, but there is NO DUTY OR OBLIGATION to respond to anything, if the person or animal in who is in trouble is not family nor our own. Are there similar laws in other states? I'm sure there are.

Those laws don't necessarily pertain to a situation when carrying a defensive device or when a BG is present. However, I think the premise is the same. Feel free to disagree.

If my loved ones are in harm's way then I have a duty to protect them, according to the GSLs. If a stranger is in harm's way, I don't have a duty but maybe I have my own moral obligation to help, if I can.

My first priority is always to keep me and my family safe; after that, to assist. If assisting means merely standing by and calling the LEOs or providing a witness statement, then so be it. Yet, I'm not trained as an LEO, so I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how to stop a BG and not hit a crowd of people in danger at a mall, nor stop a BG in many other situations.

But, if I can SAFELY remove a threat, if I am ready, willing, and able to do so, then I will. If not, why should I put myself or others in danger? Assisting with CPR or other kind of rescue is one thing. The level of danger to myself would be low. Otherwise, when the danger is high, my priorities may change.

 

[maybejim]

In most religions and in the writings of our founding fathers you will find the firm belief that...

It is every citizens civic and moral duty to defend themselves and their neighbors if it is within their means to do so...

IF I am in line at the bank, and somebody in front of me try's to rob the teller and I am in a position to draw my weapon and do something about it I WILL, EVEN IF IT MEANS LEAVING MY 7 KIDS WITHOUT A FATHER...

DO I CONSIDER MY FELLOW MAN/WOMAN'S LIFE (EVEN IF THEY ARE A TOTAL STRANGER?) AT LEAST AS VALUABLE AS MY OWN?

YES!

Hear! Hear!

 

[Husky Girl]

I was thinking a bit about Good Samaritan Laws as I was writing my earlier post. In Washington (to my understanding) the GSL doesn't compel anyone to act - even if it's your family member - but it can protect someone from liability if they choose to act, as long as they act with good intenttion AND stay within the realm of their training. For instance, under the GSL, I would be protected from liability if I accidentally broke someone's rib while perfomring CPR because I'm trained to perform CPR. If I tried to perform a tracheotomy on someone, I would be way outside my realm of training and could absolutely be sued.

Now that you've brought up GSL, I wonder how a person's firearms training would factor into a situation like a mall shooting. If you have never had any formal firearms training, could you be held civilly liable for attempting to shoot a bad guy because you are outside of your realm of training? For that matter, what is considered "training?" If you grew up shooting but have never taken a class, are you "trained'?

Just some thoughts...

 

[Bohemian]

I was thinking a bit about Good Samaritan Laws as I was writing my earlier post. In Washington (to my understanding) the GSL doesn't compel anyone to act - even if it's your family member - but it can protect someone from liability if they choose to act, as long as they act with good intenttion AND stay within the realm of their training. For instance, under the GSL, I would be protected from liability if I accidentally broke someone's rib while perfomring CPR because I'm trained to perform CPR. If I tried to perform a tracheotomy on someone, I would be way outside my realm of training and could absolutely be sued.

Now that you've brought up GSL, I wonder how a person's firearms training would factor into a situation like a mall shooting. If you have never had any formal firearms training, could you be held civilly liable for attempting to shoot a bad guy because you are outside of your realm of training? For that matter, what is considered "training?" If you grew up shooting but have never taken a class, are you "trained'?

Just some thoughts...

All these things vary exponentially depending upon where you live...
If you live in Barack Obama's state, you could be held liable criminally & civilly for shooting somebody in your own home, regardless of training and the manufacturer that made your firearm and the dealer whom sold it to you could be held civilly liable under laws he intruduced and supported as a Illinois State Senator...

I digress... if you attempt to think about whether you are going to be held liable for defending yourself or another during a dealdy force situation; you will probably not survive it anyway...

Better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6...

When seconds count, the police are minutes away...

 

[Sgt. SIG]

Oh yes, I'm mentally prepared... but financially? :fie:

 

[Magistrate PO]

Very good points!

I have Three Steps that anybody dealing with using deadly force needs to navigate:

1. You Need to Get Your Mind Right. This is where you come to grips and make your peace with the fact that you are carrying the power of life and death. You need to walk through the various scenarios for what will happen before, during, and after, to be prepared for the entire event.

You can not put off getting yourself ready. There are no RSVPs to gun/knife/club fights. Even if you avoid going anywhere where there might be a violent confrontation - unless the government sends you there - that does not mean you will not be in one; the other side has a vote on creating a violent confrontation for their own reason(s). You must be ready beforehand for the event and the aftermath. If you have not gotten past this step, you can not deal with Steps 2 and 3 clearly, and you are setting yourself all of the emotional issues that will come your way if you are carrying ANY weapon - gun/knife/club - and use it.

2. You Have to Know Where the Bright Line to Act Is. At what point can you legally stop the threat.

You must know at what point under what circumstances deadly force is appropriate. This is not something you can figure out at the time, you must have internalized it before it the event starts, much like what you do when you drive your car on ice, for example. Each state is different, so you must be well-versed in any state you are in, and every separate kind of situation (home/domicile, car, outside home/car, etc.) that is possible. You must automatically and immediately know when the line is crossed.

3. There can be NO hesitation as soon as the opportunity/shot is cleared tactically after the Bright Line has been and remains crossed. As John Bernard Books - John Wayne's character in his last movie The Shootist stated - You Must Be WILLING.

"It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts, it's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull a trigger. I won't."​

​

You can not be looking for wiggle room or a gray area here. The threat exists, and needs to be stopped. Looking for a Third Middle Compromise Solution leads to hesitation, which will lead to you not dealing with your responsibilities in a timely manner. It is you - not the person or persons presenting the threat - that you are responsible for.

I thought your comments were right on target. Mindset is very important before anything else happens.

 

[Magistrate PO]

Financial cost!

Oh yes, I'm mentally prepared... but financially? :fie:

I remember attending a street survival training were the aftermath of any shooting were discussed and one of the points they made is no matter how justified the shooting you can expect it to cost at least $10,000 in attorney fees, probably more with inflation.

 

[gpbarth]

Contrary to the beliefs of some, I did not get a carry permit so I could walk the streets looking for bad guys to terminate. And I am sure that if it came down to a shoot-out, although I would regret killing someone, it's me or him, and hopefully it ain't gonna be me. You have to do what is necessary, and I will defend to the death myself, my wife and family, and my home.

 

[fibertech]

I have not and don't feel that I would actively seek someone out to take their life... with that in mind if it is choice between their funeral or mine, I will do everything in my power to make it sure it is theirs.

 

[LVLouisCyphre]

I was thinking a bit about Good Samaritan Laws as I was writing my earlier post. In Washington (to my understanding) the GSL doesn't compel anyone to act - even if it's your family member - but it can protect someone from liability if they choose to act, as long as they act with good intenttion AND stay within the realm of their training. For instance, under the GSL, I would be protected from liability if I accidentally broke someone's rib while perfomring CPR because I'm trained to perform CPR. If I tried to perform a tracheotomy on someone, I would be way outside my realm of training and could absolutely be sued.

Now that you've brought up GSL, I wonder how a person's firearms training would factor into a situation like a mall shooting. If you have never had any formal firearms training, could you be held civilly liable for attempting to shoot a bad guy because you are outside of your realm of training? For that matter, what is considered "training?" If you grew up shooting but have never taken a class, are you "trained'?

GSLs apply to medical personnel or a civilian rendering basic first aid. In the civilian case once CPR is started, they are obligated to continue until relieved or the subject is pronounced deceased. In quite a few States, certified or licensed medical personnel are required by the State certifying or licensing them to intervene in their certified or licensed capacity as a condition of maintaining their certification or license. In other cases it's a matter of employer policy if they are employed in a public safety capacity. I don't know of any case where they apply to a civilian who has a CCW being required to intervene. However you may be criminally liable under codes, laws or statutes which may fall under "depraved indifference to human life" if you fail to intervene by at least summoning assistance. You could be held criminally liable if you don't. It's not likely, but I could see an aspiring DA or assistant DA using a tragedy as leverage to get re-elected or to get catapulted to a higher office.

We live in a litigation makes right society. Unless the incident occurs in a jurisdiction with a strong castle doctrine or stand your ground law (i.e. FL, MO or TX), expect to be sued by the subject you shot or their estate for personal injury or wrongful death even if it was a clean defensive shooting. Also keep in mind that you may not know the players of a 3rd party incident so you're often better off not intervening or using a tactic I have mentioned before in other threads and during my classes to further assess who the players are.

In all defensive shootings where the subject you shot has expired you are the subject of a homicide investigation.

In all cases, you are liable for every round that comes out of your firearm. If it does not hit or goes through the intended target you are liable for any and all damage, death or injury caused by that round.

Also keep in mind that you're in WA state where no training is required to be issued a CPL. WA puts a higher weight on the mental health and criminal background of the CPL holder than their training and skills.

 

[Marcus59]

I have not had any formal training other than the class for basic gun safety required to get a CCW in my state. I have owned guns most of my life and know how to use them. I try to avoid trouble when I can but if there is no other way then I will deal with it with what ever it take. Since I decided to carry a gun, I have tried to learn every thing I can about the law and how to defend myself and my family. I have given this a lot of thought and I will do what has to be done.

 

[upanchor]

Are we ready for self defense?

Isn't there another option? i.e. some mental prep, carrying daily, we THINK we are ready to do the deed should it be necessary (but who knows until it's time?)...

 

[tattedupboy]

In an ideal world, I would not be carrying a gun. However, since the world in which I live is not an ideal place, I'm going to do whatever I can to maximize my chances of survival in it.

 

[StrykerPete321]

Decision

I really was wanting to choose trained and ready, just because for the past 5 years I've trained my soldiers and myself for worst situations. But i guess if it was to happen in america it might be different for me not sure really.

 

[tattedupboy]

I really was wanting to choose trained and ready, just because for the past 5 years I've trained my soldiers and myself for worst situations. But i guess if it was to happen in america it might be different for me not sure really.

Welcome to USA Carry, StrykerPete321. Thank you for your service to this country.