Accosted in Wal*Mart; what would you do?

[gdcleanfun]

It sounded to me from the original post that the management actually escorted the guy out. That would have been the time to hold him and call the police. Not really your responsibility, or the store's, but you might have been able to save his next victim.

That's exactly what I've been saying to dh. We're still discussing calling the police. He says that there would have been no problem shooting the bad guy, he just wants to forget altogether anything to do with shooting anyone, because of his Viet Nam daize. I would like to balance dh or others from being hurt and helping dh heal from his anguish, albeit these many years ago.

Ideas? Suggestions?

 

[JJFlash]

That's exactly what I've been saying to dh. We're still discussing calling the police. He says that there would have been no problem shooting the bad guy, he just wants to forget altogether anything to do with shooting anyone, because of his Viet Nam daize. I would like to balance dh or others from being hurt and helping dh heal from his anguish, albeit these many years ago.

Ideas? Suggestions?

Seems to me your first allegiance is to dh. He was the one involved, so I think it's his decision to make and yours to respect.

I would say the same if it had been YOU who had dealt with the BG, just so you know.

 

[PascalFleischman]

I think the police should be called, but I think WalMart should be the ones to do it since it happened in their store. Your husband should have just had to hang around to provide a description.
But it sounds to me like he handled himself just right.

And to prevent the bad guy from filing a "guy with a gun" report, or even worse, a felony assault charge for threatening him with a gun.

 

[PascalFleischman]

I second that. If I've stopped the threat, I'm good to go.

I'm not sure about all this "be the first to call" stuff. Yeah, it's sounds good and I suppose it MIGHT save some legal hassle, but why is the onus on us, as law-abiding citizens, to prove our innocence? We have undergone background checks, hold down jobs, raise families, support our church, whatever. Anytime they want to put my personal record up against some dipshit who's tried to hijack my wallet in a restroom, feel free.

Again, before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I'm not gonna overreact to it, personally. Must be the stubborn Irish in me.

Because if you don't prove your innocence on the front end, you could end up having to do it in a court room. Plus, it makes it so that the other guy has to prove his innocence too.

 

[gdcleanfun]

Seems to me your first allegiance is to dh. He was the one involved, so I think it's his decision to make and yours to respect.

I would say the same if it had been YOU who had dealt with the BG, just so you know.

JJFlash, I understand what you are saying, yet can we agree to disagree? Yes, he was the one involved, but he's not a hermit and we all affect each other in the public arena. The incident happened in a store, in public, so the store was involved. He's my hubby so I'm involved. Finally, the fellow is still roaming the streets so public safety is involved. I do believe that we are strictly and solely responsible for our immediate safety as most LEO forces cannot protect us nor keep us safe 24/7/365, leading to my belief that the public safety is also my concern. If this fellow commits a crime against someone else then I've not done my due diligence in keeping the public at large safe. There are people who probably don't agree with that concept but that's the way I think about it. I don't know if it's been too long since the incident so that Wal*Mart tape might not be around anymore, but I can certainly notify the Sheriff's deputies about the incident, and that's something that everyone has the right, or maybe I should say the ability, to do if they so desire.

Thanks, everyone, for your input. You've all given me so much to consider. :biggrin:

 

[AvidshooterTX]

Others may disagree with me but it seems to me that pulling your firearm, aiming and firing should be one action as quickly and as accurately as you can do it. The gun shouldn't clear leather unless you plan to fire it. Otherwise, in your own mind, you did not fear imminent bodily injury or death to yourself or others. If I were the prosecutor trying to put you away for brandishing that's how I'd argue the case. That's pretty much what I was taught at my concealed carry class as well.

 

[billwot]

Others may disagree with me but it seems to me that pulling your firearm, aiming and firing should be one action as quickly and as accurately as you can do it. The gun shouldn't clear leather unless you plan to fire it. .

Well, count me as disagreeing. Most "armed conflicts" are ended by simply showing the weapon (I have had one real-world experience where that was the case.) The American Rifleman's "Armed Citizen" column regularly reports crimes that were prevented by simply presenting the weapon.

If making the bad guy aware that you are armed (or in the language of this board that you are a "sheepdog) is sufficient to stop the threat/crime, then there is no need to use lethal force.

Do LEOs shoot every time they draw their weapon? Of course not.

bill

 

[utimmer43]

Others may disagree with me but it seems to me that pulling your firearm, aiming and firing should be one action as quickly and as accurately as you can do it. The gun shouldn't clear leather unless you plan to fire it. Otherwise, in your own mind, you did not fear imminent bodily injury or death to yourself or others. If I were the prosecutor trying to put you away for brandishing that's how I'd argue the case. That's pretty much what I was taught at my concealed carry class as well.

I too would disagree. That argument is akin to saying that we cannot legally bring a gun to a knife fight. In most cases, assuming a knife wielding BG isn't completely psycho, staring down the business end of the peace-maker is enough to neutralize the threat. That is always the primary objective in self-defense.

 

[AvidshooterTX]

A knife is a lethal weapon and you can meet force with force.

 

[utimmer43]

A knife is a lethal weapon and you can meet force with force.

No argument there, and shooting someone in close proximity wielding a knife would be justified. But my point still stands that it is not necessarily required that you pull the trigger once you "clear leather". If the knife wielding (or in this case, bar, pipe, club, whatever) BG backs off at the sight of your firearm, mission accomplished.

If you still stand by your "don't clear leather unless you plan to fire" statement, then I ask you at what point should DH have shown his weapon?

 

[chudak25]

JJFlash, I understand what you are saying, yet can we agree to disagree? Yes, he was the one involved, but he's not a hermit and we all affect each other in the public arena. The incident happened in a store, in public, so the store was involved. He's my hubby so I'm involved. Finally, the fellow is still roaming the streets so public safety is involved. I do believe that we are strictly and solely responsible for our immediate safety as most LEO forces cannot protect us nor keep us safe 24/7/365, leading to my belief that the public safety is also my concern. If this fellow commits a crime against someone else then I've not done my due diligence in keeping the public at large safe. There are people who probably don't agree with that concept but that's the way I think about it. I don't know if it's been too long since the incident so that Wal*Mart tape might not be around anymore, but I can certainly notify the Sheriff's deputies about the incident, and that's something that everyone has the right, or maybe I should say the ability, to do if they so desire.

Thanks, everyone, for your input. You've all given me so much to consider. :biggrin:

I agree that he should have called LE after the incident, however since that was not done, I probably would not do it now. I'm pretty sure there are no video cameras inside the restroom, so worse case it's his word against the other guys if someone does try to report it.

As for your comment "leading to my belief that the public safety is also my concern.", be careful with that, because unless you are a police officer, that really is not the reason you should be carrying, it's only for the protection of you and your family/loved ones. It's the job of the LEOs to protect the public.

 

[6shootercarry]

Ok, 6SC, I'll concede. There are two many factors in play, here, so best to contact LE. (Hey, I'm old and stubborn, but I can be swayed by good argument.) Hats off to ya on this "what if". I still don't care for this "call LEO before the BG does" stuff, tho. Yeah, I guess if I display my weapon, it'd probably be a reason to contact LE, but I hate to think they get the benefit of the doubt if they call first. But I get the logic.

I guess it comes down to the undocumented list of responsibilities that come with the CCW license thing. Have to keep it on the up and up. We have to be the upstanding law abiding citizens (and I say that with respect not animosity).
I love the fact that I was able to get the unrestricted Class A license here in MA so I will do what it takes to keep it. It’s sad that we have to fight so hard to keep and justify this “God Given Right”.
Maybe the whole getting arrested thing could make an impression on the scum bag or perhaps not, many factors to discuss there.

Chances are if he tried it on you he may try it on another. Perhaps he tried the same stunt on some poor old man that was unable to defend himself and he was lucky and got the guys cash. In that case I would like to think that maybe getting the scumbag cuffed and stuffed avenged the old man. I root for the underdog and hate bullies.

Thanksgiving was very good. Turkey, open-fire-spit-roasted pig, family, and lots of homemade Yugoslavian plum brandy… God loves me…
Peace,
Dave

 

[6shootercarry]

Others may disagree with me but it seems to me that pulling your firearm, aiming and firing should be one action as quickly and as accurately as you can do it. The gun shouldn't clear leather unless you plan to fire it. Otherwise, in your own mind, you did not fear imminent bodily injury or death to yourself or others. If I were the prosecutor trying to put you away for brandishing that's how I'd argue the case. That's pretty much what I was taught at my concealed carry class as well.

That's the reaction we are taught. Hesitation can and will cause injury and death.
I was told the 3 rules to gun carry are: (by a permit issuing officer in the past).
1. Never carry it unloaded, May as well carry a bat.
2. Never pull it unless it's going to be used, it's not a show and tell item.
3. If you shoot, dead men never tell lies. God forbid you have to and God help you if you have to.

So mixed feelings here that I'll try and explain.

I just recently added the Crimson Trace LaserGrip to my M&P45 for 2 main reasons. If in low light conditions and stressed in a threat to life condition, I'll need to make quick hits. I'll have that advantage with the laser. I will need to train with it to get that level of confidence. But the other reason I made the choice; I also like the idea of "If the bright red dot on the ribs stops the threat rather than a hole in the ribs, I'm ok with that". I hope (God knows this is true) I never have to make that quick choice. I would rather have the need to call the police and explain why I had to draw than to plead to the jury that shooting the guy was necessary.

So if the site of it gets the threat to stop than so it shall be. I’d rather it that way.
But if the site of it fails to force the change of game plan then it will be used as intended.
That time in between is what training is for.

Peace...

 

[6shootercarry]

That's exactly what I've been saying to dh. We're still discussing calling the police. He says that there would have been no problem shooting the bad guy, he just wants to forget altogether anything to do with shooting anyone, because of his Viet Nam daize. I would like to balance dh or others from being hurt and helping dh heal from his anguish, albeit these many years ago.

Ideas? Suggestions?

Each person will deal with stress and anguish in their manner. Gotta support the one you love.
So Sorry that DH had to deal with this.

Idea? Just love him as I'm sure he loves you.
Peace and good Christmas.

 

[unclefish]

They'd be calling the meat wagon!!! As soon as he brandished those brass knuckles and stated his intentions, you have a legal right to protect yourself. I'll bet he'll use a gun on the next victim. I would report it anyway.

 

[stang46gt]

Call the Police

I think that anytime you have to depend on your firearm to protect yourself, or others, you should be calling the authorities. If for nothing else but to protect yourself. How many times have we heard of the bad guys sueing the good guys when their plan to make an easy buck fails. What would happen if the BG ran from the restroom screaming that someone tried to rob him. Even though it is not true I bet you get locked up, have to get bailed out and end up costing you a lot of money. One simple phone call protects you and costs you only time.

 

[billwot]

Chances are if he tried it on you he may try it on another. Perhaps he tried the same stunt on some poor old man that was unable to defend himself and he was lucky and got the guys cash. In that case I would like to think that maybe getting the scumbag cuffed and stuffed avenged the old man. I root for the underdog and hate bullies.

I would almost guarantee that he made a similar attempt within an hour.

Being confronted by an armed citizen and ejected from WalMart was just a minor inconvenience in what is probably his daily routine.

bill

 

[6shootercarry]

I would almost guarantee that he made a similar attempt within an hour.

Being confronted by an armed citizen and ejected from WalMart was just a minor inconvenience in what is probably his daily routine.

bill

Agreed... Maybe he meets the guy who's carrying and is perhaps a bit to fast on the trigger...:butcher:

 

[Mainsail]

What would you do?

Scenario: Dh (dear husband) is still recovering from an automobile accident, he moves quite slowly, walks with a cane, etc. Shopping in Wal*Mart recently, he needed a pit stop. A fellow followed him into the restroom and never entered a stall, he just stood by the sinks waiting for dh to emerge from his stall. First clue to dh that something was amis! Dh emerged from his stall with his hand on the handle of his pistol. The fellow asked, stated, "I bet you have money in that pouch?! I could hurt you," showing his hand and the weapon he had concealed in it. It was some kind of bar the fellow had palmed, but not brass knuckles. Dh said there was more in his pouch than money and if someone was going to be hurt well it wouldn't be him (dh)! He began pulling out the pistol. The fellow backed off immediately and left the restroom. He was later escorted from the store after dh alerted the front manager!

I tried talking dh into alerting the police but he wouldn't, saying the problem was taken care of. I disagree. The fellow is still freely walking the streets.

What are you thoughts, ideas? What would you do?

Wow! Sounds like a problem that could have been avoided entirely... if he was carrying openly.

 

[astute]

Maybe, maybe not. If he had been open carrying the bad guy might have over powered him by surprise and who knows what the outcome might have been then?