Whats your opinion on the florida shooting?

[wooddoctor]

The bottom line in this whole tragedy is whether GZ is found guilty or not is up to a jury. We can hash this seven ways to Sunday and it doesn't mean squat. The best any of us can do is take a good hard look inside and ask ourselves what is worth pulling your weapon for. Is it worth putting yourself in a volatle situation like this where you may have to use your weapon or would the better choice have been call it in stay in your vehicle and let the law do there job. GZ was under no obligation to get out of his vehicle and confront this kid. He made a personal choice to do so that in my opinion was a very poor choice. And it makes no difference whether he was justified in pulling his weapon or not the bottom line is his life is forever changed and will never be the same ever.

You know what they say about opionions dont you?

 

[S&W645]

I don't know what planet that inane logic would work on but it isn't Planet Earth.

As has been posted previously ....... as well as having been acknowledge by LE ...... the dispatcher has no authority to give anyone "orders". Further "we don't need you to do that" does not translates as to "stop", not even on Mars ....................... or Ohio.

Link Removed

I happen to be in a part of Florida not affected by the closeness of the state capital, thankyouverymuch. I think that your location has also affected your ability to understand simple English. Telling someone that they don't need to do something is tantamount to telling them to cease what they are doing.

 

[S&W645]

I know I am not the smartest but why is it so hard for them to due forensics to see what direction the bullet entered Trayvon's body, If it does not enter Trayvon's body at an upwards angel then that should be enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman.

Also the statements made by Trayvon's girlfriend does not help. If Trayvon was afraid why did he not call 911?

Your first question is fairly easy to answer. The Sanford PD failed to correctly do the investigation it appears. As for your last part, maybe he felt it was better to keep her on the phone while he left the scene just in case something happened. Or that it happened so fast that he never got the chance to hangup and dial. That's why a timeline is needed.

 

[Oldgrunt]

Looking out my second floor office window a few years ago I saw a kid breaking into my neighbor's car. Called 911, watched the kid and where he went - went out front and watched him go down the street; didn't chase nor confront - try to tackle him and ask him to justify his existence to me. Didn't run downstairs waving my G and try to hold him at gun point. Not my responsibility and certainly not what I am empowered to do. Then LEOs show up, nab him on the street and I identify him. Good all around. Was there a part of me that would have liked to beat his ***** for doing that in my neighborhood - get some good emotional pay-back for all the rampant crime on our streets? Hell, yes. Was there a part of me that thought, as the 911 calls of this incident say this shooter said, that "These ******oles always get away". Definitely. But I fulfilled my responsibility in that situation in which there was no imminent loss of life.

It is neighborhood "watch" not neighborhood LEO or confront or enforcement - he fulfilled that watch function by calling and should have continued to watch so he could be a good reporter/witness - and only intervened if/when the "subject's" behavior met the criteria for intervention by a civilian (much less an armed one). He turned it into neighborhood "harass" and over-stepped his rights and responsibilities. Even if, at the time he shot, he was in fear for his life, the available data suggest he created the jeopardy where none had existed.

Perhaps more evidence will surface to change this what is currently being reported, but at this point, he seems a bad example of responsible carry and a higher standard of care.

Those of us in Florida are now having to watch anti-gun and anti-stand-your-ground attempt to use this against us, a matter that is not unexpected.

Dark: I think you did the right thing in this case and used good common sense. There was no need to be "Deputy Dawg" and start a situation which could have very easily turned ugly. Kudos to you!

 

[SGB]

I happen to be in a part of Florida not affected by the closeness of the state capital, thankyouverymuch. I think that your location has also affected your ability to understand simple English. Telling someone that they don't need to do something is tantamount to telling them to cease what they are doing.

Bolderdash and hooey

..... pulling something out the sphincter ani externus don't make it so.

And yet again let me reiterate my snowbird friend, even if you were correct the dispatcher has NO AUTHORITY to tell anyone to do anything.

 

[Blogengeezer]

Opinion page of ABQ Journal depicts a snub nose revolver with the trigger guard shaped like the USA. The lower extension is shaped like FLA with the name Trayvor Martin. Interesting they Don't depict Chicago Illinois with the dozens of names from the last weekend, Or LA CAL with even more. FLA incident is 'Self Defense' Not 'Stand Your Ground'. Have no idea what Chicago Illinois or LA Cal can fall back on, because they are 'Gun Free'. This incident is Agenda all of the way. (see 'Million hoodie march') If gun Rights and the 2nd Amendment survive this 'Media Driven' political attack, it will be a miracle. This 'anti-gun' president is even WH podium 'news conference' involved. Wonder why he didn't mention the countless others nightly, that are in direct reverse, as far as situation of events, is reported?

Former US Marine MP, Luke Sanchez, ABQ NM, similar situation to GZ. Perp was Gary Gabaldon (didn't make National 'news' due to Hispanic on Hispanic). Luke's Legal fees are in realm of $20,000... in spite of... all charges dropped. Seeing these now predictable results, with their financial and mental destruction, best thing as armed witness, is 'turn away and leave the scene of the 'incident'....de-escalate. Only get 'involved' if you can mentally and Financially afford the personal Devastation that is guaranteed to come down On You..... In 'Today's USA.

 

[Steve357]

Something you should see concerning this topic...

Link Removed

 

[BluesStringer]

Yes, two can play that game. It works better if the photo you're claiming is of the dead kid is actually of the dead kid.

Link Removed

A lot of people jumped on that bandwagon and few people are admitting their error in doing so.

Pretty good essay from Massad there. Not free of speculation either though, even though the title is about "what we don't know." For instance, this:

The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism. This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET.

I saw the thing about the full magazine a day or two ago, and I thought when I saw it that it had to say something about the struggle. Of course, something similar to what Massad is suggesting was the first thing that came to my mind, but as I thought it through, even if Martin's hand was on the gun when it went off, preventing it from cycling properly, that says nothing about how the physical altercation started. It says nothing about the timing of when the weapon was drawn, or even who drew it. It's possible Martin discovered the weapon during the struggle by either feeling it or seeing it when he was on top of Zimmerman. It says nothing at all about whether or not the shooting was legally justified, and as such, I completely disagree with Massad's assertion that, even if a struggle for the gun could be proven to have happened, it would in no way, in and of itself, "clearly change the shape of the case." That is as purely speculation as asserting that the witness who puts Zimmerman on the bottom getting beaten up clearly demonstrates that he was justified in shooting Martin.

The whole point of Massad's essay was to say that nothing can conceivably be *clear* to anyone but those with access to all the evidence, whoever is investigating the event. Though this does nothing to assuage my opinion of him as a great trainer, an excellent writer, and someone who is eminently qualified to comment on the legalities and psychological implications of civilian-involved shootings, I think he kind of blew his own premise out of the water with that one paragraph in this instance.

Blues

 

[Fyrewerx]

Blues, I noted that portion of Mas' article, too. Then I wondered 'how could the magazine possibly still be full (7 rnds) if there wasn't a hand on the slide to prevent chambering a new round?' Even a mis-feed would have been very evident. This could potentially be an important point in GZ's defense (accidental discharge?). The death via one shot would also seem to indicate TM was very close.

Wow! That's a forensic that would have only come out on CSI (TV), normally.

 

[S&W645]

Bolderdash and hooey

..... pulling something out the sphincter ani externus don't make it so.

And yet again let me reiterate my snowbird friend, even if you were correct the dispatcher has NO AUTHORITY to tell anyone to do anything.

See how quick you are to jump to an assumption. I am no more a snowbird than someone who has never left the state. I have lived and worked here for almost 50 years And seldom have gotten to spend more than 2 weeks in a 6 month period up there. But plans are to leave Florida for good in the future. Won't be coming south in the winter as we really don't have bad winters in our area of Ohio where the family farm has been for 70+ years. I was up there just last month for 11 days with no snow on the ground the whole time.

As for the dispatcher not having a right, they can suggest and if you don't follow a good suggestion, as this was, you will assume all responsibilities for your actions. Most people here would understand that and back off instead of being confrontational, which Zimmerman was.

 

[SGB]

See how quick you are to jump to an assumption. I am no more a snowbird than someone who has never left the state. I have lived and worked here for almost 50 years And seldom have gotten to spend more than 2 weeks in a 6 month period up there. But plans are to leave Florida for good in the future. Won't be coming south in the winter as we really don't have bad winters in our area of Ohio where the family farm has been for 70+ years. I was up there just last month for 11 days with no snow on the ground the whole time.

As for the dispatcher not having a right, they can suggest and if you don't follow a good suggestion, as this was, you will assume all responsibilities for your actions. Most people here would understand that and back off instead of being confrontational, which Zimmerman was.

You list yourself as Fl and Ohio, you do the math Mr I don't live near Tallahassee. You make a false assumption that Zimmerman continued to follow, you make it with absolutely no verifiable information to support it. And we are all responsible for our actions regardless of others suggestions. Your entire premise is without merit.

 

[mooseman]

Trayvon Martin Shooter's Friend: George Zimmerman Has 'Virtually Lost His Life, Too' - Yahoo!

 

[BluesStringer]

Most people here would understand that and back off instead of being confrontational, which Zimmerman was.

There is absolutely nothing in the public record to establish that Zimmerman was the one who initiated the confrontation. It has been said (by SGB I believe it was) that following Martin is not against the law in FL, and therefore, cannot be seen as justification for Martin to initiate violent confrontation. He certainly had a reason and a right to firmly request that Z stop following him, but even that is not established as a fact that Z continued following after the operator told him they "don't need you to do that." The only evidence on the record is Z's statement to the operator that Martin had changed direction and was then coming towards him to "check me out."

None of the above, or anything else I've said in this thread, is intended as a defense of Zimmerman. It's intended only as a defense of the truth. The truth is none of us knows anything except a handful of random facts that don't speak at all to the question of was it a legal shooting or an illegal one? A member of a neighborhood watch in an area plagued by a rash of burglaries should be supported, generally speaking, for trying to help cops ascertain what a suspicious-looking person is doing in his neighborhood. Likewise, a teenager just out to get a snack and a drink should be supported in walking back to his dad's house. Something obviously went wrong, but none of us knows what that something is, and what with the absolute character assassination of Zimmerman by the media, relying on any part of that media-whoring is just wrong.

And think about this: Assuming Zimmerman is arrested, indicted and stands trial, where can he go in this country now to get that "fair" trial? If this board is any indicator, the entire nation's jury-pool is polluted beyond redemption.

Blues

 

[Danmc]

"Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun"

Trayvon Martin Shooter Says Teenager Went for His Gun - ABC News

I was one who jumped to conclusions by the initial media reports. I believed Zimmerman was in the wrong. There are some here who have stood by their words, that there is not enough evidence to go either way. I think Zimmerman made a mistake, but now the question is, was it self-defense? So now new reports are coming in through the media. Did Martin try taking Zimmerman's gun? Was the gun in Zimmerman's hands? Holster? Was it concealed in his waist band? If Martin tried taking Zimmerman's gun, what was his intent? I must confess that I am going to have to recant my vigilante frame of mind towards Zimmerman and wait for ALL THE FACTS to come out.

 

[Deserteagle]

"Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun"

Trayvon Martin Shooter Says Teenager Went for His Gun - ABC News

I was one who jumped to conclusions by the initial media reports. I believed Zimmerman was in the wrong. There are some here who have stood by their words, that there is not enough evidence to go either way. I think Zimmerman made a mistake, but now the question is, was it self-defense? So now new reports are coming in through the media. Did Martin try taking Zimmerman's gun? Was the gun in Zimmerman's hands? Holster? Was it concealed in his waist band? If Martin tried taking Zimmerman's gun, what was his intent? I must confess that I am going to have to recant my vigilante frame of mind towards Zimmerman and wait for ALL THE FACTS to come out.

Wow! The 17 year old punk beat up Zimmerman, and yet the whole country has jumped on the Zimmerman is guilty bandwagon. I hate to say it, but so many Americans are idiots. Zimmerman is not the sharpest knife in the drawer either.

 

[longslide10]

Wait until all the facts become known then pass judgement.

 

[tommy62]

"Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun"

Trayvon Martin Shooter Says Teenager Went for His Gun - ABC News

I was one who jumped to conclusions by the initial media reports. I believed Zimmerman was in the wrong. There are some here who have stood by their words, that there is not enough evidence to go either way. I think Zimmerman made a mistake, but now the question is, was it self-defense? So now new reports are coming in through the media. Did Martin try taking Zimmerman's gun? Was the gun in Zimmerman's hands? Holster? Was it concealed in his waist band? If Martin tried taking Zimmerman's gun, what was his intent? I must confess that I am going to have to recant my vigilante frame of mind towards Zimmerman and wait for ALL THE FACTS to come out.

I too jumped to conclusions. I was guilty of making comments without the full story. The ABC story is enlightening.

 

[wooddoctor]

Link Removed

Need we say any more? Does Barry have blood on his hands?

 

[MilShooter]

"Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun"

Trayvon Martin Shooter Says Teenager Went for His Gun - ABC News

I was one who jumped to conclusions by the initial media reports. I believed Zimmerman was in the wrong. There are some here who have stood by their words, that there is not enough evidence to go either way. I think Zimmerman made a mistake, but now the question is, was it self-defense? So now new reports are coming in through the media. Did Martin try taking Zimmerman's gun? Was the gun in Zimmerman's hands? Holster? Was it concealed in his waist band? If Martin tried taking Zimmerman's gun, what was his intent? I must confess that I am going to have to recant my vigilante frame of mind towards Zimmerman and wait for ALL THE FACTS to come out.

I'm sorry to pick-out your posting to quote, but it is relevant to some additional information that we must consider.

First, I want to thank you for being rational, considering new information (facts) as they become available. It demonstrates that you have an open and fair mind, willing to admit your errors or rush-to-judgment. Thank you for being honest with everyone. I think we're all pretty tired of the conjecture and the rush to justice against Zimmerman, based upon very few facts.

As an investigator, it is always necessary to back up a bit and look at the whole picture, which includes a bit of background on the 2 players. I'm posting a link to another few bits of background information for your consideration. Perhaps a few of you will understand that "little" Trayvon was NOT the little boy you see in the press photos. Trayvon was NOT a resident of the community, so Zimmerman did not recognize him. Trayvon was visiting his Dad's house because he had been suspended from his high school for 10 days, not 5 days as earlier reported. Trayvon evidently wanted to be a "gang banger" and had a Twitter ID of "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA" who may have been involved in drug-dealing (according to the Google cache and some remaining messages in his Facebook account wherein someone is searching for him in order to buy some "plant"). Trayvon, at 17 years old, had several tattoos and gold teeth. He stood 6' 3" tall and was evidently in good shape, playing high school sports. He was not the innocent little boy you've seen portrayed in the press. (I'd bet that he could open a case of "whoop-ass" on Zimmerman with very little effort.)

I encourage you to read the article I'm linking-to and you can digest the information and try to fit it into your imagined scenarios. For me, I am tending to believe that Zimmerman had lost track of Trayvon and was returning to his car when he was confronted by the teen. He may then, have been assaulted by Taryvon, being knocked to the ground, whereupon he began screaming for help (this fact is not it dispute - there were eyewitnesses to it - and one of the witnesses called 9-1-1 to report the attack by Trayvon).

Of course, this is purely my opinion and conjecture. I could be completely wrong in my conclusion. But I must point-out that as verified information trickles-out, it all supports Zimmerman's account of the event. There seems to be little to support anything other than a legal shooting in a case of self-defense.

Here is the "inflammatory" article I refer-to: "Was Treyvor Martin a Drug Dealer?"

And so it goes...

 

[walt629]

Great link MilShooter and a good post. Thanks for sharing.