Waffle House Shooting (Good Guy Wins)

[NavyLCDR]

Please show me a post where I said that. The number of case in which the robber just starts shooting people is vanishing small. From what I’ve read it appears to me that in the instances where the robber does start shooting it’s a planned event and there are definite precursors that I believe you have noted yourself.

Gladly:

Got to go with Rich S on this one, I don’t carry a gun to defend Waffle House’s insured cash register. If I am not directly involved and it looks like the robber is going to take the money and run I’m going to let him.
If I had to get involved I most certainly am not going to attempt to apprehend anyone I am going to open fire and continue to fire until one of us is on the ground

And, I must ask, exactly what are these precursors that you talk about that will inform you if a robber's intention is to shoot or not? It's obviously not the fact that he has a knife or a gun in his hand with his finger on the trigger.

As I have stated numerous times I am absolutely convinced that in 998 out of 1000 (not the same as 98 out of 100) I would put your wife and kids at more risk of harm by starting a gun fight than by doing nothing. Why would you want me to do something that I think is going to endanger your family?

And what we are saying is a guy comes in with a knife and stabs a couple people; exactly how are you endangering my family any less by deciding to shoot him then after the attack, rather than shooting him when he was making the threat to stab people with the knife in his hand before he had the chance to follow through on his threat.

Treo, Rich_S.....you guys like to play the odds and put your trust in the criminal. I won't put my trust in the criminal that he won't hurt me, my family, and even innocent strangers. Criminals are not trustworthy. If they were trustworthy, they wouldn't be criminals, they would be law abiding citizens. I would rather trust my life and my family's with Smith and Wesson and Hornady.

 

[Treo]

Gladly:

Got to go with Rich S on this one, I don’t carry a gun to defend Waffle House’s insured cash register. If I am not directly involved and it looks like the robber is going to take the money and run I’m going to let him.
If I had to get involved I most certainly am not going to attempt to apprehend anyone I am going to open fire and continue to fire until one of us is on the ground

You bolded that part but I don't think you read it

And, I must ask, exactly what are these precursors that you talk about that will inform you if a robber's intention is to shoot or not? It's obviously not the fact that he has a knife or a gun in his hand with his finger on the trigger.

One of the biggest would be if the guy started moving customers into a back room, a second would be if they started robbing customers (as opposed to just taking the till)

And what we are saying is a guy comes in with a knife and stabs a couple people; exactly how are you endangering my family any less by deciding to shoot him then after the attack, rather than shooting him when he was making the threat to stab people with the knife in his hand before he had the chance to follow through on his threat.

Apples and lima beans, if the guy comes in and straight off starts stabbing people odds are he's going to get two or three before anyone overcomes inertia and gets moving anyway.

Treo, Rich_S.....you guys like to play the odds and put your trust in the criminal.

Nope, I'm putting my trust in the odds.

Have you ever seen a robbery? have you even been in one? I watched a guy get robbed on the street in down town Colorado Springs one night and didn't even realize what I was seeing until the guy asked for statements for the police.

That's the reality of how this stuff usually plays out, it's usually over before your mind can even interpret what it's seeing and react.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Have you ever seen a robbery? have you even been in one? I watched a guy get robbed on the street in down town Colorado Springs one night and didn't even realize what I was seeing until the guy asked for statements for the police.

That's the reality of how this stuff usually plays out, it's usually over before your mind can even interpret what it's seeing and react.

Why carry a gun at all? You USUALLY aren't going to need it. How many people carry a gun every day and go through the entire day, and MOST through their entire lives and never need their guns? I'm sorry, I just cannot wager my life upon what criminals USUALLY do or don't do.

 

[Treo]

Why carry a gun at all? You USUALLY aren't going to need it.

I think I already answered that :

The reason I carry a gun is for personal self defense the odds that someone would threaten me personally sufficient to justify deadly force are higher than that I would be in position to intervene in a robbery that is why I carry a gun not to play security guard for Waffle House why is that so hard to understand.

I'm sorry, I just cannot wager my life upon what criminals USUALLY do or don't do.

No one is asking you to.

Part of your training as a Naval officer should have been risk assessment, I know part of my training as an NCO in the Army was and according to my risk assessment the safest thing I can do in the overwhemling majority of robberies is nothing and (If the million to one long shot ever comes in and I find myself in a business that is being robbed at all) unless (the second million to one long shot comes in and) I have reason to believe otherwise that is exactly what I'm going to do.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Part of your training as a Naval officer should have been risk assessment, I know part of my training as an NCO in the Army was and according to my risk assessment the safest thing I can do in the overwhemling majority of robberies is nothing and (If the million to one long shot ever comes in and I find myself in a business that is being robbed at all) unless (the second million to one long shot comes in and) I have reason to believe otherwise that is exactly what I'm going to do.

We've simply had different training then. My training teaches me that it takes about 1/2 of 1 second for a person with a gun already in hand to turn and shoot at me. I don't give a rat's butt what 99% of criminals usually do or don't do. If I can, with relative safety, neutralize the threat of a criminal with a gun in their hand, I am going to....before they have the opportunity to take the 1/2 second required to turn and shoot at me. There are way too many factors that could set the criminal off and cause them to fire their gun that are completely outside my control: another customer walking in the door unexpectedly, sirens approaching, someone drops something in the kitchen making a loud noise. If I shoot at the criminal, I know my actions could trigger the criminal to shoot - but then the situation is different, because I know what the trigger is and I can be prepared for all hell to break loose when I shoot which is a much more favorable situation than all hell breaking loose while I am wondering when the criminal is going to leave so I can get more syrup for my pancakes. I know we will always disagree on this, but I am just not willing to trust my life or my familiy's lives to the actions of a criminal and to the odds of what they are likely to do or not do.

 

[Treo]

If I can, with relative safety, neutralize the threat of a criminal with a gun in their hand, I am going to..

That is very likely the most important if you ever wrote.

Before that if gets to happen a million stars have to align starting with you even being in the restaurant.

Then you have to know the robbery is occurring.

Assuming those two are given,

Where are you sitting? Can you get up and draw?

Who/ what is between you and the target?

What happens if the soccer mom at the next table stands up right in front of your gun just as you pull the trigger?

What if you miss?

What if you don’t miss and (as is almost certain to happen) one shot isn’t enough to end the engagement? On a similar note what happens when you fire your first shot and the entire restaurant panics?

998 out of 1000 isn’t 99 % its 99.8% which means that in only 0.2% of cases is the criminal going to fire at all.

That’s like taking 1000$ in dimes,( after reviewing my math, this sentence is wrong it would be like taking 1000 silver dollars ) painting 2 of the dimes red, dumping them in a pile and expecting me to pick out the two red ones blind folded in one try and with those odds you will never convince me that I’m making things better by starting a gun fight.

Also worth noting is that even though the subject of this thread beat all the odds and was able to end the robbery his life appears to have gone to Hell as a result.

So, here I am with my thousand dollars in dimes, I’m blind folded and I have to pick the two red ones but no matter which one I pick I’m going to be dragged through the media, subjected to a trial, (which means I’m going to have to bankrupt myself paying for a lawyer) possibly go to jail, possibly get shot (go read that thread on THR) possibly shoot the wrong person, possibly any one of a million bad outcomes and really no good outcomes.

Or I could just take of the blind fold and let some one else play.

I want to be clear that I normally agree with you and I do respect your opinion most of the time but I am never going to agree with you on this topic. Forget freezing over, it isn’t going to happen if Hell freezes solid .

 

[Scouse]

If that was me, in SS position, with my Wife sat next to me, the minute that gun holding criminal would have turned away, I would have shot him in the head.

No one threatens my Wife's life, and he would have been doing that.

I have demonstrated that turn wrist and fire many times, using a timer. It is under a second.

Am I a Cop, no, and never have been, but I taught them, and Security, for 25 years.

 

[BluesStringer]

If that was me, in SS position, with my Wife sat next to me, the minute that gun holding criminal would have turned away, I would have shot him in the head.

No one threatens my Wife's life, and he would have been doing that.

I have demonstrated that turn wrist and fire many times, using a timer. It is under a second.

Am I a Cop, no, and never have been, but I taught them, and Security, for 25 years.

Quite obviously you're just wannabe sheepdog scum. Link Removed

 

[Treo]

If that was me, in SS position, with my Wife sat next to me, the minute that gun holding criminal would have turned away, I would have shot him in the head.

No one threatens my Wife's life, and he would have been doing that.

I have demonstrated that turn wrist and fire many times, using a timer. It is under a second.

Am I a Cop, no, and never have been, but I taught them, and Security, for 25 years.

I have to ask, why in the name of God would you be sitting right next to the cash register in a waffle House in the first place?

 

[NavyLCDR]

I want to be clear that I normally agree with you and I do respect your opinion most of the time but I am never going to agree with you on this topic. Forget freezing over, it isn’t going to happen if Hell freezes solid .

Let's just agree to hope that neither ever has the opportunity to prove the other right or wrong.

 

[Treo]

It has been my experience that those, in the permit holder community, who seek the title of sheepdog, tend to be authoritarians who use it as a means of self aggrandizement. They tend to derive their feelings of self worth from the position of quasi authority they assume their permit gives them. This is, of course, my opinion but I have also seen posters on gun boards state that our status as permit holders makes us defacto auxiliary police officers. As such I believe the sheepdog mythology is very, very dangerous to the gun owning community and I speak against it at every opportunity.

 

[NavyLCDR]

It has been my experience that those, in the permit holder community, who seek the title of sheepdog, tend to be authoritarians who use it as a means of self aggrandizement. They tend to derive their feelings of self worth from the position of quasi authority they assume their permit gives them. This is, of course, my opinion but I have also seen posters on gun boards state that our status as permit holders makes us defacto auxiliary police officers. As such I believe the sheepdog mythology is very, very dangerous to the gun owning community and I speak against it at every opportunity.

Good for you. May the force be with you.

 

[fudo]

And then, on the other hand, nothing that can be said of a group, can be reliably said about a single member of a group. I think your generalizations are too general.

 

[Rocketgeezer]

A citizen defending himself? How was he defending himself? He only needed to defend himself because he decided to get involved. So many things can go wrong that sometimes it's best not to get involved. What if the BG sees your gun, opens fire in your direction, and hits innocent bystanders? What if he kills you? I would certainly be in a civill suit in my neck of the woods for shooting this guy. You need to think long and hard about these scenarios before leaving the house with a firearm.

Just one question Rich, would your attitude be the same if it was your wife or daughter, behind the counter with a gun pointed at her, and CCW holder sat there and did nothing while she was hurt or killed??????.........as I have said several times before, NOBODY can know what they would do, in a tense situation involving a firearm until it happens, hopefully I never will, before my wife and I got our Permits we were involved in two incidents that could have went very bad, in one of them had I had a weapon at the time I would have used it, not nessessarly to shoot a BG, but I would deffinatly stopped his car, which he was trying to hit us with, in the Waffle House situation, who the hell knows what they would have done unless they were there, that night at that time, in exactly the same situation

 

[fudo]

It must be a lonely life to live, with no sense of community, no civic duty, no sense of being part of something greater than survival only.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of
servitude better than the animating contest for freedom, go home
and leave us in peace. We seek not your council nor your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you, and may posterity
forget that ye were our countrymen."
-Samuel Adams
See my sig line

 

[maybejim]

It has been my experience that those, in the permit holder community, who seek the title of sheepdog, tend to be authoritarians who use it as a means of self aggrandizement. They tend to derive their feelings of self worth from the position of quasi authority they assume their permit gives them. This is, of course, my opinion but I have also seen posters on gun boards state that our status as permit holders makes us defacto auxiliary police officers. As such I believe the sheepdog mythology is very, very dangerous to the gun owning community and I speak against it at every opportunity.

I'd have to say your "experience" must be either very limited or very so overwhelmed with bias as to be invalid. The purpose of your carrying a gun apparently is only to be used in the direst of situations that threaten you personally. My guess is that attitude will more times than not serve to make sure your gun is never going to be able to be used even for the purpose you think you carry it for. Your reasoning calls for not carrying a gun since it almost never is going to be useful. There are a lot of people that feel the same way, and when I have talked to them, my recommendation is they not carry. By the time they decide they are in the direst of situations it is going to be too late, and if the bad guy spots your gun, he's going to use his and you will have no chance to use yours. No doubt you feel superior to all the poor slobs who carry with the attitude that if someone is threatening deadly force with the capability of carrying through, they will move to end that threat.

Obviously the situation has to be evaluated and the decision must be based on whether the action is more likely to end the threat or make it worse. But I'd sure hate to be partnered with someone with your attitude because that attitude is always going to cause a dangerous delay in action.

 

[Treo]

It must be a lonely life to live, with no sense of community, no civic duty, no sense of being part of something greater than survival only.

You get used to it

 

[Scouse]

Every day this pops up on my G mail.

And I must admit the pendelem swings like a feather in a storm.

Quite a bit of nasty in there, as well.

In essence, to me, the question revolves around why you carry a CCW, a very personal question.

Giving an opinion that differs from running away, from any situation, other than one that just concerns you, self, the individual, gets you labeled "Sheepdog" not sure what that is, nice dog though.

One of the best reasons I have seen printed, and I like it, "Because I can" comes to mind.

The why, is connected to the what, yes?
My selection, always the same, Glock 19, TruGlow sights, extended slide release (Glock) 147g Non Plus P, Ranger, spare G17 magazine, Surefire, very bright Flashlight.

As I mostly never go anywhere without my Wife, she is in the loop re use.

I carry a little card, called Auto Insurance every day also, not to get into a crash, but in case I do. Let us just say the Pistol sits in there somewhere, a just in case devise.

A few Sundays ago, walking out of an eatery we go to every couple of weeks, a car pulled up at the kerb, the rear door swung open, a frail old chap slid his legs out, cane in left hand, I stepped forward, and helped him out, I received a smile, and a "Thank you" I am 76, but not frail.

I did not think about that action, I most likely would not think too deeply about a helping hand in a shooting situation either, you just do it. It stems from the way, and where we are all raised. My Dad shared the hot chocolate in the 1940's, in our air raid shelter, Liverpool UK. He did not have to do that either.

 

[fudo]

You get used to it

I can't think of any reason I would want to.

 

[snipingshadow]

What happens if the soccer mom at the next table stands up right in front of your gun just as you pull the trigger?

What if you miss?

What if you don’t miss and (as is almost certain to happen) one shot isn’t enough to end the engagement? On a similar note what happens when you fire your first shot and the entire restaurant panics?

998 out of 1000 isn’t 99 % its 99.8% which means that in only 0.2% of cases is the criminal going to fire at all.

That’s like taking 1000$ in dimes,( after reviewing my math, this sentence is wrong it would be like taking 1000 silver dollars ) painting 2 of the dimes red, dumping them in a pile and expecting me to pick out the two red ones blind folded in one try and with those odds you will never convince me that I’m making things better by starting a gun fight.

Also worth noting is that even though the subject of this thread beat all the odds and was able to end the robbery his life appears to have gone to Hell as a result.

So, here I am with my thousand dollars in dimes, I’m blind folded and I have to pick the two red ones but no matter which one I pick I’m going to be dragged through the media, subjected to a trial, (which means I’m going to have to bankrupt myself paying for a lawyer) possibly go to jail, possibly get shot (go read that thread on THR) possibly shoot the wrong person, possibly any one of a million bad outcomes and really no good outcomes.

Taking this one one piece at a time. Nobody is going to stand up when a robbery is taking place and they have told everybody to not move. Once you draw and start firing its a split second decision with multiple rounds going down range and its over before anybody could even stand up. If you miss the only persons who will be standing are the criminals and the cwp holder as in my case. If a friendly is directly in the line of fire then you position yourself to get them out of it. When you fire the restaurant doesnt panic. This isnt the movies. Everybody is in shock even the criminals. 998 out of 1000 eh? Kill all 1000 before they know what hit them and you will guarantee no shots will ever be fired. My life is perfect. I CHOSE to speak the media. A trial is a good thing 'round here. "bankrupt myself paying for a lawyer" wrong. Under *article 6 Protection of persons and property act* section 16-11-450 "A person who uses deadly force as permitted by the provisions of this article or another applicable provision of law is justified in using deadly force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action..." it also goes on to say if the court determines that the shooting was justified then the court awards a reasonable amount of defense funds if a civil action shall be brought against you. Its real simple not to get shot or hit the wrong person. Just have to be aware of the perfect moment to strike and know your own skill set. If you cant fire your weapon without hitting the wrong person or at least have that confidence then you should not be carrying a weapon.