Waffle House Shooting (Good Guy Wins)

[Rich_S]

My opinion is backed by Utah state law, where I live. Hopefully the laws in his state are the same.

For all you know the guy was standing at the register when they came in and had the gun pointed at him as well. You don't know, neither do I. But you are willing to throw him under the bus because you think you know best.

So again.... your bias is showing.

Just because his actions may have been lawful that doesn't mean they were a good idea.

 

[Rich_S]

Exactly right! That's why this criminal is now dead...Because 'he' should not have pulled a gun to commit a Felony. Too bad for him!

I don't disagree but the CC holder is lucky the incident itself ended well. However, it may be far from over for him.

 

[Rich_S]

I was also waiting for Rich_s to come along and put words into my post that I did not.... I don't see anywhere in this thread where I posted any opinion about your statements.

Where did I put words into your post?

 

[Rich_S]

In Washington state the customer would have been 100% within the law as well.

That's great but that still doesn't mean he should have taken action.

 

[Rich_S]

Please do explain how a customer in a restaurant being robbed is responsible for a bad guys actions in a court of law? Are you saying, if someone tries to run away and the bg shoots in that direction, and hits another customer, the one running away is accountable? I hope he doesn't hit the window of the restaurant or its good bye to everyone...right? *Sarcasm* I hope for your sake you can live with yourself if you watch another person die knowing full well you could have saved them.



All that is necessary for one to get killed or lose everything they own is to not pull a gun when they should....

Have you ever heard how lawsuits work? The plaintiff's attorney will go after anyone and everyone they possibly can. If you pull a gun and there's any shadow of a doubt that you caused a BG to open fire and he hits a bystander you're going to be named in a lawsuit. Even if your actions were lawful and you can win the suit you legal bill would likely run into five figures. I can live with myself just fine, Thank You very Much....

 

[Rich_S]

THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (EXCERPT)
Act 175 of 1927


764.16 Arrest by private person; situations.

Sec. 16.

A private person may make an arrest—in the following situations:

(a) For a felony committed in the private person's presence.

(b) If the person to be arrested has committed a felony although not in the private person's presence.

(c) If the private person is summoned by a peace officer to assist the officer in making an arrest.

(d) If the private person is a merchant, an agent of a merchant, an employee of a merchant, or an independent contractor providing security for a merchant of a store and has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested has violated section 356c or 356d of the Michigan penal code, Act No. 328 of the Public Acts of 1931, being sections 750.356c and 750.356d of the Michigan Compiled Laws, in that store, regardless of whether the violation was committed in the presence of the private person.


History: 1927, Act 175, Eff. Sept. 5, 1927 ;-- CL 1929, 17150 ;-- CL 1948, 764.16 ;-- Am. 1988, Act 19, Eff. June 1, 1988


Rich_S, no this is not CC training and probably never will be. I would believe section (a) would fit this situation. I located this from the state of michigan web site

Actually this sort of thing is discussed in CC training frequently. You've just made it obvious that you've never taken any. Once again, there's a difference between lawful actions and actions that are prudent.

 

[Rich_S]

Keep your panties on! I was referring to people defending themselves in general, not necessarily the story in the OP.

At what point during a robbery do you consider it time to defend ones self? The details of the incident weren't exposed in the article from the OP and I'm not wasting time to go research it.

We've had this discussion sooo many times in here and there are as many opinions as there are posters as to when it is time to get involved. Some would let us believe it is a moral imperative to jump in as soon as a gun is exposed. Others are more measured and some would high tail it out of the danger zone ASAP. None of these answers are BAD answers and everyone can be argued pro and con.

The decision I make at the time that I am involved will be the right answer for ME. If it's Poop and Scoot, so be it. If it's to draw and defend, well I guess I'll have to live or die with the outcome. Won't I?



Every time I put my holster on. Every single time.

The question should be, "If you're so damned scared about what might happen if you carry a gun, why bother?" I can understand your reluctance to do anything that would put your neck out for someone else. I consigned myself to the fact that there are people like you out there.

This post is so pathetic it's hardly worth a response.

First it's:

The decision I make at the time that I am involved will be the right answer for ME. If it's Poop and Scoot, so be it.

Then it's:

I consigned myself to the fact that there are people like you out there.

So it's OK for you to "poop and scoot" but not so much for the "people like me out there" if I decide that's what's in my best interest, eh?

 

[Rich_S]

Wow. Adversarial aren't we?

How about enlightening me how it will work in, let's say Alaska.

My point is, we are all in various states. State law and the circumstances of each incident will decide how the outcome will be judged. Your answer is not the only one just like my answer may work out for me in Florida but not necessarily is South Carolina.

But for the sake of argument, why don't you fill all of in ho how it works in a court of law.

See previous rebuttal.

 

[Warbirds]

Just because his actions may have been lawful that doesn't mean they were a good idea.

I will try to remember your opinions. See a drunk driver, don't report it. See someone bleeding, step over their body. Hear someone yelling fire, go other direction. Hear a woman yelling rape, not my issue. Thief pulls a gun, use women and children a cover as I sprint out the back door. Got it, but no thanks.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

 

[Rich_S]

So where, in relationship to the cash register, was the Good Guy sitting while enjoying a late night snack with his wife and 2 kids when the perps came in and pointed guns at innocent people?

Why are you assuming he "thrust" himself into the situation? There wasn't a whole lot of detail in the original story.

It said he attempted to hold the BG for the police when the gun was pointed at him.

 

[Rich_S]

Maybe some people shouldn't even carry guns since their only idea of self defense is to hide under the table and hope the police arrive to save him!

-Doc

Some people DEFINITELY shouldn't carry guns because it's been shown in this forun that their potential reckless actions could easily do more harm than good.

 

[Rich_S]

That's true and there are always "what if's and remember dead men can't sue. If you are worried about a law suit why carry in the first place? Would you rather be judged by 12 or carried by 6?

Dead men's heirs and family members can and do sue. I carry a gun to protect myself and my family. If I can avoid being judged by 12 and get out of a situation without shooting I will. Very often the best action is the one not taken. If I have the potential of being carried by 6 I'll act accordingly.

 

[localgirl]

Guys, I think we can all agree, even those who are on opposite ends of the sheepdog spectrum, that there are times when the only logical thing to do is to high-tail it, defending only yourself in the process. There are also times when one can and should take the opportunity to defend someone else.

I used to get pretty pissed at the guys on this forum who said they were only ever going to defend themselves in any given situation, but you know what? They're probably visualize a whole different scenario than me.

There are SO many possible self-defense situations you could find yourself in, and SO many options as to how to react to those. And you've only got a second or two to figure it out when you're in the middle of it.

People who have posted here who have taken some kind of offensive or defensive action invariably say "I wish I would have..." Well, let their stories serve as lessons to us, and hope that if you're ever in a similar situation you have a moment to weigh your options, because otherwise, chances are even you training and "muscle memory" will fail you, and you will resort to your deepest psychological default state.

 

[Rich_S]

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" -

Correct- a good description of your involvement in this thread.....

 

[Rich_S]

I will never second guess a victim deciding to strike before he has a chance to be struck!

Robbers are THE most vicious, and dangerous of all criminals!

They are often on drugs, trying to prove their meanness to other gang buddies, or just plain want to hurt someone.

They rationalize their victims into objects, not people. "Things in my way.." as I was told by one. They consider you nothing more than a candy wrapper, an object in their way, to be discarded like trash!

Often they kill people just because you don't have enough of want they want. Sometimes they kill for no reason. More than once I have heard"..cause I was on drugs.."

Just by being present during a robbery your life is in mortal danger.

Go ahead, hide under the table. Tell him you respect him and understand him. Beg him to be nice to you. Keep hoping the cops come first!

Be a good victim!

TPD: Friendly Store Clerk Killed In Attempted Robbery - KTUL.com - Tulsa, Oklahoma - Coverage You Can Count On

Link Removed

-Doc

Really? Robbers are more dangerous than rapists? A guy jacking a cash register is more dangerous than a guy violently assaulting a woman? Ummmm....OK

 

[Rich_S]

Rich! why are you on this site? you do not agree with our ideas. We belive in selfdefense. someone sticking a gun in someone face in front of me and I have a gun I am going to stick my gun in his face. Thats selfdefense of another. cause when sec count the police are mins away. There are so many times when someone got killed cause they did not stand up for themself or others. The badguy died I am sorry but he risked his life when he decided to risk someone else's life. You understand most of us here would get involed when someone is being attacked why you would not is your busness I do not care. We would stand up for our fellow man or women. If you have never walk down a dark alley or stood up to a bully for yourself or someone other
than you then ok you let the police do your fighting.
people died all the time cause people do not want to get involved! women get raped, kids get killed and when we asked why did they did not do something they always say "I did not want to get involved." and we look and shake our heads and think wow! we do not understand that. I do not want to say words that attack you just saying we do not understand why you would not defend someone else in danger if you could. Are you scared of lawsuits that much! Where is your line that you would fight back, would you fight back? Cause if your attack and you wait too long your dead or someone else is dead. or raped or hurt. where is your line only you, you family? never! you need to think long and hard about we the people, who stood up in our life to defend others. this country is not the army or the police it's we the people. we run this place.
THIS IS OUR HOUSE!! you step in here with muddie shoes and your going to go to the woodpile for some Learning. Lets say you are being rob by a 6'9 250 lbs monster who wants your shoes. I am walking by with my 8gage shotgun with slugs and you yell help and I say sorry I am scare of lawsuits and I do not want to get involved. what do you think you would feel when the bad guy decides he not omly wants your shoes he think you cuter than any little blond he ever saw and wants to play banjo music while you make pig noises.
do you think you might want me to blast that monster out of his music loving mind.
fear is not a reason not to get involved, thats called being a coward. if a little girl is being dragged down a ally and you say "sorry do not want to get involved lawsuits ya know." At what point do you step up.
I prob pixxsed you off but thats not my point. my point is when do you risk you life for someone besides your self. a man alone is easy prey. together we are might! if you would not stand with me or us why would we stand with you? fear of a lawsuit, I can understand if you scared your going be attacked by the monsters but sorry lawsuits ya know! worldwar 2 happen in part because the power that be did not stand up to germany. Ya know chamberlan? do you think a women should not shoot a rapeist if she had a gun cause ya know lawsuits! sad! well have a nice day sir. enjoy the world that others fight to keep you safe in.
la la lalala la DANG!! I sound like troll! I am sorry i tryed not to get rude. but it slips out.
Ok beat me till i cry and send me to bed without supper. Fear of lawsuits going stop me from defending someone. what has this world come to? wrong site Rich!!

someone sticking a gun in someone face in front of me and I have a gun I am going to stick my gun in his face.

So then what happens if you sticking a gun in his face causes him to shoot the person that you think you're defending?

 

[Rich_S]

Ok, so you will ONLY protect YOUR family, but you would sit around and watch others die. That is a nice set of morals you have there buddy. Maybe I am crazy here but I would give my life to protect innocent people. I cannot stand by and watch evil people do evil things just because they want to. If someone were to come into my work and pull out a gun and shoot one of the people I work with just for some worthless paper money, then I might as well be dead myself. I would not be able to live with the fact someone is dead because I did not have the balls to take action when I had the means and training to.

Now agreed on the point where taking action can sometimes do more harm than good. Very crowded places or 8 to 1 odds with the gun men etc. But that is where training and common sense come into play and each situation will be different.

However to say, "I will do nothing because I am too scared of a lawsuit or getting killed that I will only protect MY family and whatever happens to others I don't care" is, to word it nicely, the words of a weak man.

However again, this is the United States of America where you can think however you wish, so have a nice day.

So what about all the people out there that don't carry guns? Are they immoral because thay aren't prepared to the best extent that they can be to defend other people?

Now agreed on the point where taking action can sometimes do more harm than good.

Absolutely. How would you feel if you drew a gun and caused a firefight where innocent bystanders died when all the guy wanted was the money from the register?

 

[Rich_S]

I have an aspect that I have not seen brought up before...

If a police officer has no duty to protect an individual, what makes him have a duty to protect an establishment? I keep reading, "I don't want to play police." From what I read, police are almost never there to stop the crime when it's happening. So how is stopping a crime, playing police, if that's rarely what police do? We aren't chasing down the criminals after they got away, we aren't investigating the scene and evidence after the crime, that would be playing police (or bounty hunter).

If anything, protecting yourself and others, is doing exactly opposite of what police do the majority of the time. I do not mean anything against police, we all just know they can't be everywhere all the time.

The job of the police is to enforce the law. If they arrive and a crime is in progress enforcing the law would involve stopping the crime and arresting the perps.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Where did I put words into your post?

Seriously? I posted this:

I was waiting for Rich_S and his give them what they want post.

You posted this in response:

^^^^

I was waiting for troll boy to come and tell us how I'm wrong for excercising common sense. I'd like someone to cite CC training they've taken that states an armed citizen should thrust himself into an armed robbery scenario like this one and make a citizen's arrest. Please post links to their website.

So, exactly where did I say you were wrong in the post you were referring to? I simply stated that I figured you would post your "give them what they want" theory as you have done in the past. The bold part above, you inserted on your own. Thank you for playing, please come again when you can't stay so long.

 

[Rich_S]

I find it interesting that Sheriff Wright said the customer did exactly what CCW training teaches:

Link Removed



And, now....the rest of the story (Paul Harvey):
Deputies: Waffle House customer shoots and kills armed robber | GoUpstate.com



It seems very clear from these articles and similar, that Sheriff Chuck Wright does not subscribe to the theory of "give them what they want and be a good witness."

Of course the dead criminal's father says, "William's father said his son has never done anything like this in the past. Saturday would have been his 19th birthday." It seems like it is always their first time, and they are always little angels until they are shot or arrested.

Well there you have it. We now know he waited, assessed the situation, and acted when there was no other choice. The original article in the OP does not give enough info to say that his actions were warranted and therefore they are obviously subject to scrutiny at that point.