Waffle House Shooting (Good Guy Wins)

[NavyLCDR]

^^^^

I was waiting for troll boy to come and tell us how I'm wrong for excercising common sense. I'd like someone to cite CC training they've taken that states an armed citizen should thrust himself into an armed robbery scenario like this one and make a citizen's arrest. Please post links to their website.

I was also waiting for Rich_s to come along and put words into my post that I did not.... I don't see anywhere in this thread where I posted any opinion about your statements.

 

[NavyLCDR]

My opinion is backed by Utah state law, where I live. Hopefully the laws in his state are the same.

For all you know the guy was standing at the register when they came in and had the gun pointed at him as well. You don't know, neither do I. But you are willing to throw him under the bus because you think you know best.

So again.... your bias is showing.

In Washington state the customer would have been 100% within the law as well.

 

[Keykutter]

In South Carolina there is no duty to retreat. If someone here points a gun, I assume he's gonna shoot and if it within my power, I'll do what I can to keep him from doing it.

South Carolina may be different but it's not just defense of yourself, it's defense of bodily harm, yours or anyone's.

Here in SC, we understand the ramifications of carrying and if it means protecting someone else if we could just walk away, most of us will stick around.

Not ever having been in the situation, all we can do is believe what we would do, and that's what everyone I know believes that they would do.

There have been enough shooting cases in the SC recent history to know where we stand when it comes to defense.

KK

 

[Firefighterchen]

You clearly have absolutely no understanding of how things work in a court of law- do you? I hope for your sake (and the sake of any bystanders) that you never find yourself in one of these situations.

Please do explain how a customer in a restaurant being robbed is responsible for a bad guys actions in a court of law? Are you saying, if someone tries to run away and the bg shoots in that direction, and hits another customer, the one running away is accountable? I hope he doesn't hit the window of the restaurant or its good bye to everyone...right? *Sarcasm* I hope for your sake you can live with yourself if you watch another person die knowing full well you could have saved them.

All that is neccessary for one to get killed or lose everything they own is to pull a gun when they shouldn't....

All that is necessary for one to get killed or lose everything they own is to not pull a gun when they should....

 

[Firefighterchen]

I was also waiting for Rich_s to come along and put words into my post that I did not.... I don't see anywhere in this thread where I posted any opinion about your statements.

I have seen this kind of argument else where recently..ah yes..from GOV5..no more valid points so lets turn to name calling and lying. Sounds good ya?

 

[swsd40]

THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (EXCERPT)
Act 175 of 1927


764.16 Arrest by private person; situations.

Sec. 16.

A private person may make an arrest—in the following situations:

(a) For a felony committed in the private person's presence.

(b) If the person to be arrested has committed a felony although not in the private person's presence.

(c) If the private person is summoned by a peace officer to assist the officer in making an arrest.

(d) If the private person is a merchant, an agent of a merchant, an employee of a merchant, or an independent contractor providing security for a merchant of a store and has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested has violated section 356c or 356d of the Michigan penal code, Act No. 328 of the Public Acts of 1931, being sections 750.356c and 750.356d of the Michigan Compiled Laws, in that store, regardless of whether the violation was committed in the presence of the private person.


History: 1927, Act 175, Eff. Sept. 5, 1927 ;-- CL 1929, 17150 ;-- CL 1948, 764.16 ;-- Am. 1988, Act 19, Eff. June 1, 1988


Rich_S, no this is not CC training and probably never will be. I would believe section (a) would fit this situation. I located this from the state of michigan web site

 

[walt629]

A citizen defending himself? How was he defending himself? He only needed to defend himself because he decided to get involved. So many things can go wrong that sometimes it's best not to get involved. What if the BG sees your gun, opens fire in your direction, and hits innocent bystanders? What if he kills you? I would certainly be in a civill suit in my neck of the woods for shooting this guy. You need to think long and hard about these scenarios before leaving the house with a firearm.

Keep your panties on! I was referring to people defending themselves in general, not necessarily the story in the OP.

At what point during a robbery do you consider it time to defend ones self? The details of the incident weren't exposed in the article from the OP and I'm not wasting time to go research it.

We've had this discussion sooo many times in here and there are as many opinions as there are posters as to when it is time to get involved. Some would let us believe it is a moral imperative to jump in as soon as a gun is exposed. Others are more measured and some would high tail it out of the danger zone ASAP. None of these answers are BAD answers and everyone can be argued pro and con.

The decision I make at the time that I am involved will be the right answer for ME. If it's Poop and Scoot, so be it. If it's to draw and defend, well I guess I'll have to live or die with the outcome. Won't I?

Rich_S;262927 You need to think long and hard about these scenarios before leaving the house with a firearm.

Every time I put my holster on. Every single time.

The question should be, "If you're so damned scared about what might happen if you carry a gun, why bother?" I can understand your reluctance to do anything that would put your neck out for someone else. I consigned myself to the fact that there are people like you out there.

 

[walt629]

You clearly have absolutely no understanding of how things work in a court of law- do you? I hope for your sake (and the sake of any bystanders) that you never find yourself in one of these situations.

Wow. Adversarial aren't we?

How about enlightening me how it will work in, let's say Alaska.

My point is, we are all in various states. State law and the circumstances of each incident will decide how the outcome will be judged. Your answer is not the only one just like my answer may work out for me in Florida but not necessarily is South Carolina.

But for the sake of argument, why don't you fill all of in ho how it works in a court of law.

 

[walt629]

^^^^

I was waiting for troll boy to come and tell us how I'm wrong for excercising common sense. I'd like someone to cite CC training they've taken that states an armed citizen should thrust himself into an armed robbery scenario like this one and make a citizen's arrest. Please post links to their website.

So where, in relationship to the cash register, was the Good Guy sitting while enjoying a late night snack with his wife and 2 kids when the perps came in and pointed guns at innocent people?

Why are you assuming he "thrust" himself into the situation? There wasn't a whole lot of detail in the original story.

 

[Bighouse Doc]

Maybe some people shouldn't even carry guns since their only idea of self defense is to hide under the table and hope the police arrive to save him!

-Doc

 

[longslide10]

A citizen defending himself? How was he defending himself? He only needed to defend himself because he decided to get involved. So many things can go wrong that sometimes it's best not to get involved. What if the BG sees your gun, opens fire in your direction, and hits innocent bystanders? What if he kills you? I would certainly be in a civill suit in my neck of the woods for shooting this guy. You need to think long and hard about these scenarios before leaving the house with a firearm.

That's true and there are always "what if's and remember dead men can't sue. If you are worried about a law suit why carry in the first place? Would you rather be judged by 12 or carried by 6?

 

[Treo]

Got to go with Rich S on this one, I don’t carry a gun to defend Waffle House’s insured cash register. If I am not directly involved and it looks like the robber is going to take the money and run I’m going to let him.
If I had to get involved I most certainly am not going to attempt to apprehend anyone I am going to open fire and continue to fire until one of us is on the ground

 

[SGB]

A citizen defending himself? How was he defending himself? He only needed to defend himself because he decided to get involved. So many things can go wrong that sometimes it's best not to get involved. What if the BG sees your gun, opens fire in your direction, and hits innocent bystanders? What if he kills you? I would certainly be in a civill suit in my neck of the woods for shooting this guy. You need to think long and hard about these scenarios before leaving the house with a firearm.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" -

 

[Warbirds]

Got to go with Rich S on this one, I don’t carry a gun to defend Waffle House’s insured cash register. If I am not directly involved and it looks like the robber is going to take the money and run I’m going to let him.
If I had to get involved I most certainly am not going to attempt to apprehend anyone I am going to open fire and continue to fire until one of us is on the ground

Treo, what would you have done?

I mean we are all second guessing the actions of this guy.... but...

Would you have called 911? If I were a perp and saw someone on the phone I would have though they were on with 911. This would have been an escalating event. Same thing with someone taking cover, a perp would not have reacted well to this. Anything short of having the innocent bystanders with their hands in the air could have escalated the perps.

The only way to do nothing would be to turn a blind eye and finish your waffles and been completely defenseless.

I by no means ever want to become involved in an incident where I have to draw my weapon. I want to have to shoot someone even less. But in a simular situation it will be a matter of seconds that there is to make a decision, and simplifying it to defending the cash register seems to me as being an injustice to the guy that was forced into this situation. Especially when we have so little information.

 

[Bighouse Doc]

I will never second guess a victim deciding to strike before he has a chance to be struck!

Robbers are THE most vicious, and dangerous of all criminals!

They are often on drugs, trying to prove their meanness to other gang buddies, or just plain want to hurt someone.

They rationalize their victims into objects, not people. "Things in my way.." as I was told by one. They consider you nothing more than a candy wrapper, an object in their way, to be discarded like trash!

Often they kill people just because you don't have enough of want they want. Sometimes they kill for no reason. More than once I have heard"..cause I was on drugs.."

Just by being present during a robbery your life is in mortal danger.

Go ahead, hide under the table. Tell him you respect him and understand him. Beg him to be nice to you. Keep hoping the cops come first!

Be a good victim!

TPD: Friendly Store Clerk Killed In Attempted Robbery - KTUL.com - Tulsa, Oklahoma - Coverage You Can Count On

Link Removed

-Doc

 

[Treo]

Treo, what would you have done?

I don’t know how I can make it any clearer, if the guy looks like he’s just going to take the money and run I’m going to let him and if I can I’m going to slip out the back door after he’s gone before the cops show up.

If the guy appears to be a threat to me I’m going to defend myself as violently as I possibly can. I certainly will not ever attempt to detain a robber for the police.

Waffle House is insured against robbery and if I try to play hero and get my ass shot off they will not pay one dime towards my medical expenses or to the support of my survivors.

 

[BluesStringer]

I don’t know how I can make it any clearer, if the guy looks like he’s just going to take the money and run I’m going to let him and if I can I’m going to slip out the back door after he’s gone before the cops show up.

I get what you're saying about everything else, but you wouldn't feel a civic duty to be a witness after the robber was long gone?

 

[whitetiger]

Rich! why are you on this site? you do not agree with our ideas. We belive in selfdefense. someone sticking a gun in someone face in front of me and I have a gun I am going to stick my gun in his face. Thats selfdefense of another. cause when sec count the police are mins away. There are so many times when someone got killed cause they did not stand up for themself or others. The badguy died I am sorry but he risked his life when he decided to risk someone else's life. You understand most of us here would get involed when someone is being attacked why you would not is your busness I do not care. We would stand up for our fellow man or women. If you have never walk down a dark alley or stood up to a bully for yourself or someone other
than you then ok you let the police do your fighting.
people died all the time cause people do not want to get involved! women get raped, kids get killed and when we asked why did they did not do something they always say "I did not want to get involved." and we look and shake our heads and think wow! we do not understand that. I do not want to say words that attack you just saying we do not understand why you would not defend someone else in danger if you could. Are you scared of lawsuits that much! Where is your line that you would fight back, would you fight back? Cause if your attack and you wait too long your dead or someone else is dead. or raped or hurt. where is your line only you, you family? never! you need to think long and hard about we the people, who stood up in our life to defend others. this country is not the army or the police it's we the people. we run this place.
THIS IS OUR HOUSE!! you step in here with muddie shoes and your going to go to the woodpile for some Learning. Lets say you are being rob by a 6'9 250 lbs monster who wants your shoes. I am walking by with my 8gage shotgun with slugs and you yell help and I say sorry I am scare of lawsuits and I do not want to get involved. what do you think you would feel when the bad guy decides he not omly wants your shoes he think you cuter than any little blond he ever saw and wants to play banjo music while you make pig noises.
do you think you might want me to blast that monster out of his music loving mind.
fear is not a reason not to get involved, thats called being a coward. if a little girl is being dragged down a ally and you say "sorry do not want to get involved lawsuits ya know." At what point do you step up.
I prob pixxsed you off but thats not my point. my point is when do you risk you life for someone besides your self. a man alone is easy prey. together we are might! if you would not stand with me or us why would we stand with you? fear of a lawsuit, I can understand if you scared your going be attacked by the monsters but sorry lawsuits ya know! worldwar 2 happen in part because the power that be did not stand up to germany. Ya know chamberlan? do you think a women should not shoot a rapeist if she had a gun cause ya know lawsuits! sad! well have a nice day sir. enjoy the world that others fight to keep you safe in.
la la lalala la DANG!! I sound like troll! I am sorry i tryed not to get rude. but it slips out.
Ok beat me till i cry and send me to bed without supper. Fear of lawsuits going stop me from defending someone. what has this world come to? wrong site Rich!!

 

[snatale42]

"This guy defended his life and the life of others at the Waffle House by law and by the Constitution. We will not be charging this gentleman," Wright said.

It's nice to see there are some SD's out there with this outlook. The BG pointed a gun at him so there was no question he was in the green, but the trying to hold them at gun point somewhere else would have fueled the people getting permits to play cop BS that we always deal with. Either way one (or more) life saved from CCW!​

 

[Treo]

I get what you're saying about everything else, but you wouldn't feel a civic duty to be a witness after the robber was long gone?

Not even a little bit. I'm sure the other patron's statements would be more than sufficent