To open carry or not...

[NavyLCDR]

Navy LCDR will be on here any minute now and it won't be pretty.

Who says I'm not pretty?

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And it's amazing... nobody ran in terror from the gun on my belt!
My sweatshirt says, "DADD: Dad's Against Daughters Dating, shoot the first one and the rest will get the message" My daughter got it for me for a Father's day present.

 

[Firefighterchen]

The problem with open carry is that once you have it then you have some idiot that wants to push it to the limit. Oh if I can open carry a pistol let me take my shotgun to Starbucks, you get rid of those idiots and you won’t have problem with open carry.

I've heard that argument before, it came from an anti gunner who had no foundation for such a claim so they turned to ridicule and name calling...oh and they were taking about ALL gun owners.

Not surprising. It seems you're new to the forum, and your stereotypes on Caucasian white man and open carry has clearly jaded you.

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[Bikenut]

The problem with open carry is that once you have it then you have some idiot that wants to push it to the limit. Oh if I can open carry a pistol let me take my shotgun to Starbucks, you get rid of those idiots and you won’t have problem with open carry.

The problem with concealed carry is that, except for a very few States, carrying a firearm concealed is illegal without a permit.

And... the problem with a permit is that when the government is in control of who is allowed and, more importantly, who is NOT allowed to have a permit then carrying a gun is not a right but is a government controlled privilege only available to those who can meet the qualifying criteria... and that includes being able to afford all fees connected to that permit.

The following is a general comment not directed at you personally kennyredhill...

I personally think it is terrible there are those who do not understand that the right to bear arms is not limited to pistols nor is it limited by the opinions of those who don't like how other people exercise that right... and that a concealed carry permit is the exact government control that "shall not be infringed" was intended to stop.

If permission must be asked for (must first have a permit) then a person does NOT have the right to bear arms... they only have a privilege the government controls.

 

[kennyredhill]

Who says I'm not pretty?

Link Removed

And it's amazing... nobody ran in terror from the gun on my belt!
My sweatshirt says, "DADD: Dad's Against Daughters Dating, shoot the first one and the rest will get the message" My daughter got it for me for a Father's day present.

See now that's not bad but what do you think would happen if you chose to pull you pistol and use it for a prop in the picture? would that still be OK? Whether you like it or condone it the extremeists are the face of open carry and open carry is the face of gun owners to the world

 

[kennyredhill]

I've heard that argument before, it came from an anti gunner who had no foundation for such a claim so they turned to ridicule and name calling...oh and they were taking about ALL gun owners.

Not surprising. It seems your new to the forum, and your stereotypes on Caucasian white man and open carry has clearly jaded you.

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I’m sorry if this sounds racist but even if I have nothing against you personally you cannot deny the historical fact that at one time the American government made it national policy to remove my entire race from the face of the earth. I was born on what you call a reservation but was in reality a concentration camp, I grew up with your nation’s policy of genocide against my people in my face every day and I will never ever ever forget it and I will never ever ever ever forget that human beings in the 21st century are capable of committing every atrocity their ancestors did in the 19th ro in the 20th. In my opinion any Native American who is anti gun is as foolish as any African American or any Jew who is anti gun

 

[Firefighterchen]

I’m sorry if this sounds racist but even if I have nothing against you personally you cannot deny the historical fact that at one time the American government made it national policy to remove my entire race from the face of the earth. I was born on what you call a reservation but was in reality a concentration camp, I grew up with your nation’s policy of genocide against my people in my face every day and I will never ever ever forget it and I will never ever ever ever forget that human beings in the 21st century are capable of committing every atrocity their ancestors did in the 19th ro in the 20th. In my opinion any Native American who is anti gun is as foolish as any African American or any Jew who is anti gun

Because only Native Americans, Africans, and Jews have had persecution in their cultures history...

Get real. Every culture has had hardships. Including the Asian culture, who actually did go to concentration camps in the US. Extremists only represent open carriers to bigots. Same goes for those who stereotype Muslims, Christians, feminists, native Americans, Asians, etc based on their extremists.

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[kennyredhill]

Open carry is legal in South Dakota but I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen it. I double checked the tribal law and according to the tribal law on Pine Ridge Indians are prohibited from carrying concealed without a tribal license. The tribal law only applies to residents of the reservation any foreigners found in possession would fall under the exclusion rule which seems to mean that once they prove they aren’t tribal members they get kicked of the res.

 

[kennyredhill]

Because only Native Americans, Africans, and Jews have had persecution in their cultures history...

Get real. Every culture has had hardships. Including the Asian culture, who actually did go to concentration camps in the US. Extremists only represent open carriers to bigots. Same goes for those who stereotype Muslims, Christians, feminists, native Americans, Asians, etc based on their extremists.

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If you don't think a reservation is aconcentration camp you've never been to one

I think extremists represent open carriers to the guy that owns Starbucks too.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Open carry is not why they are requesting firearms to not be brought into their shops.

Wrong!

First of all, it is all about OC, as in the CEO's letter there are only references to OC in his stores. In fact it is mentioned 7 or 8 times in his letter and CC is NOT mentioned at all.

Tuesday, September 17, 2013

Posted by Howard Schultz, Starbucks chairman, president and chief executive officer
Dear Fellow Americans,

Few topics in America generate a more polarized and emotional debate than guns. In recent months, Starbucks stores and our partners (employees) who work in our stores have been thrust unwillingly into the middle of this debate. That’s why I am writing today with a respectful request that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas.
From the beginning, our vision at Starbucks has been to create a “third place” between home and work where people can come together to enjoy the peace and pleasure of coffee and community. Our values have always centered on building community rather than dividing people, and our stores exist to give every customer a safe and comfortable respite from the concerns of daily life.
We appreciate that there is a highly sensitive balance of rights and responsibilities surrounding America’s gun laws, and we recognize the deep passion for and against the “open carry” laws adopted by many states. (In the United States, “open carry” is the term used for openly carrying a firearm in public.) For years we have listened carefully to input from our customers, partners, community leaders and voices on both sides of this complicated, highly charged issue.

Our company’s longstanding approach to “open carry” has been to follow local laws: we permit it in states where allowed and we prohibit it in states where these laws don’t exist. We have chosen this approach because we believe our store partners should not be put in the uncomfortable position of requiring customers to disarm or leave our stores. We believe that gun policy should be addressed by government and law enforcement—not by Starbucks and our store partners.

Recently, however, we’ve seen the “open carry” debate become increasingly uncivil and, in some cases, even threatening. Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of “open carry.” To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-gun activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners.

For these reasons, today we are respectfully requesting that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas—even in states where “open carry” is permitted—unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

I would like to clarify two points. First, this is a request and not an outright ban. Why? Because we want to give responsible gun owners the chance to respect our request—and also because enforcing a ban would potentially require our partners to confront armed customers, and that is not a role I am comfortable asking Starbucks partners to take on. Second, we know we cannot satisfy everyone. For those who oppose “open carry,” we believe the legislative and policy-making process is the proper arena for this debate, not our stores. For those who champion “open carry,” please respect that Starbucks stores are places where everyone should feel relaxed and comfortable. The presence of a weapon in our stores is unsettling and upsetting for many of our customers.

I am proud of our country and our heritage of civil discourse and debate. It is in this spirit that we make today’s request. Whatever your view, I encourage you to be responsible and respectful of each other as citizens and neighbors.
Sincerely,
Howard Schultz

Do you mind posting where Starbucks said they would still serve gun owners carrying firearms, openly or concealed?

And he said that those the choose to continue to ignore the request will be served.

Schultz hopes people will honor the request not to bring in guns but says the company will nevertheless serve those who do.

Link Removed

This easy research is provide free of charge, this time, next time you are on your own.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Wrong!

First of all, it is all about OC, as in the CEO's letter there are only references to OC in his stores. In fact it is mentioned 7 or 8 times in his letter and CC is NOT mentioned at all.




And he said that those the choose to continue to ignore the request will be served.


Link Removed

This easy research is provide free of charge, this time, next time you are on your own.

I see you conveniently left out the the part of the letter that addresses the problem. Yes the letter tries, and fails, to try and explain open carry laws. That's not the problem, they have always held that the local laws were to be followed. This is the problem:

"Recently, however, we’ve seen the “open carry” debate become increasingly uncivil and, in some cases, even threatening. Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of “open carry.” To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-gun activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners.

For these reasons, today we are respectfully requesting that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas—even in states where “open carry” is permitted—unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

Notice the bold. Pro gun activists (concealed and opened) and anti gun activists were staging EVENTS that were getting out of hand. He reiterates, they want to follow local laws, but they do not want the EVENTS in their store.

He then requests firearms to not be brought into his store. If it was truly about open carry they would not allow OC guns, right? Apparently not, he doesn't want firearms in his stores at all. All this in an attempt to stop the EVENTS.

Thank you for the link. It's amazing how he could muster the guts to publish this letter, and yet not understand how carry laws work and still act like gun owners are on the verge of chaos, so much so, his employees shouldn't confront an armed person.

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[NavyLCDR]

If you don't think a reservation is aconcentration camp you've never been to one

I drive by several reservations every day. They have Casinos and hotels that make millions of dollars of profit per month. If the "common" Indians are living in "concentration camps" today, it's not the American government's fault any longer.

 

[wolf_fire]

So how many of the OC'ers here walk down the street in a city with an AR-15 ?
We just had two do it here. They were detained, questioned, released.
It did prompt several 911 calls.

I would question whether the two that you report of are actually OCers on a day-to-day basis. Or, could it be, that they were trying to make a point that LEO's will stop someone openly carrying a firearm in a state that it's legal to do so, when it actually is not legal for them to stop you solely for that reason. If your facts are indeed correct, then the officer was negligent in his duty for detaining anyone solely on the basis of openly carrying. The officer could approach, talk, ask questions... however, that officer could not detain them. In other words, the best that officer could do was have a mere encounter, once he steps that mere encounter to a detainment situation, he better have better reasoning then "the actor has an openly displayed firearm in a state where it was legal".

 

[wolf_fire]

Open carry is not why they are requesting firearms to not be brought into their shops.

Misguided media rallies, which involved open and concealed carriers, and uncivil arguments between gun owners and anti gunners are what drove them to pick a side.

Do you mind posting where Starbucks said they would still serve gun owners carrying firearms, openly or concealed?

And no, I will no longer go to Starbucks. I didn't go before because they were pro gun, or to "flaunt" my Right, I went because they followed local laws and didn't give in to anti gun pressure. That's changed, so I will no longer go there.

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http://www.starbucks.com/blog/an-open-letter-from-howard-schultz/1268

Here's a link to the letter. Go to the paragraph that is completely underlined and also the following paragraph. This is where Howard Schultz says Starbucks will still serve them... you know right after he requested they don't come in at all.

 

[wolf_fire]

Open carry is legal in South Dakota but I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen it. I double checked the tribal law and according to the tribal law on Pine Ridge Indians are prohibited from carrying concealed without a tribal license. The tribal law only applies to residents of the reservation any foreigners found in possession would fall under the exclusion rule which seems to mean that once they prove they aren’t tribal members they get kicked of the res.

In other words you are quoting law from a region that is not under Federal or State law, yes? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't tribal land sovereign and separate from the US? So if on tribal land if they banned open carrying (except with a privilege card), how in the world does that play a factor into the Constitution of the United States?

 

[wolf_fire]

IMO when you OC you do run the risk of someone lifting the weapon from you. It may be a small risk but not out of the question. I tend to agree that that OC in a public place is not a good thing. Hunting, hiking, 4 wheeling, etc but in a supermarket or walking down the street, I don't think so. Again just my opinion.

Have you heard of retention holsters?

 

[kelcarry]

Sounds like common sense should rule. If you live in an area or town, where it is common practice to see many, if not most, firearm owners OC, then , IMO, OC is just a common way of being public 24/7. It is when you stand out from the crowd as being the one OC person among hundreds that you see during a day that could be uncomfortable and dangerous. I am sure there are areas of the country that no matter where you go what you do, OC residents are all over the place--it is when you are the only one that I would rethink being OC.

 

[kennyredhill]

I see you conveniently left out the the part of the letter that addresses the problem. Yes the letter tries, and fails, to try and explain open carry laws. That's not the problem, they have always held that the local laws were to be followed. This is the problem:

"Recently, however, we’ve seen the “open carry” debate become increasingly uncivil and, in some cases, even threatening. Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of “open carry.” To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-gun activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners.

For these reasons, today we are respectfully requesting that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas—even in states where “open carry” is permitted—unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

Notice the bold. Pro gun activists (concealed and opened) and anti gun activists were staging EVENTS that were getting out of hand. He reiterates, they want to follow local laws, but they do not want the EVENTS in their store.

He then requests firearms to not be brought into his store. If it was truly about open carry they would not allow OC guns, right? Apparently not, he doesn't want firearms in his stores at all. All this in an attempt to stop the EVENTS.

Thank you for the link. It's amazing how he could muster the guts to publish this letter, and yet not understand how carry laws work and still act like gun owners are on the verge of chaos, so much so, his employees shouldn't confront an armed person.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

I can’t read his mind, he clearly says no fire arms but he references open carry over and over. It seems like the events were tied to open carry and open carry is what’s visible and what causes extremist dumbasses to walk into Starbucks with a shot gun.
I don’t think he cares if you conceal in his store he just doesn’t want you parading your long gun.
The nearest Starbucks to me is in Chadron and no one’s coffee is that good

 

[kennyredhill]

In other words you are quoting law from a region that is not under Federal or State law, yes? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't tribal land sovereign and separate from the US? So if on tribal land if they banned open carrying (except with a privilege card), how in the world does that play a factor into the Constitution of the United States?

I happen to live on tribal land there for I am subject to tribal law

 

[Bikenut]

Sounds like common sense should rule. If you live in an area or town, where it is common practice to see many, if not most, firearm owners OC, then , IMO, OC is just a common way of being public 24/7. It is when you stand out from the crowd as being the one OC person among hundreds that you see during a day that could be uncomfortable and dangerous. I am sure there are areas of the country that no matter where you go what you do, OC residents are all over the place--it is when you are the only one that I would rethink being OC.

The only way for OC to become common enough so that it doesn't stand out in a crowd is if more people OC instead of being afraid to be the only one standing out from the crowd.

For decades open carry being legal in Michigan was largely unknown by the general population. But in just a few short years after several people took it upon themselves to "stand out from the crowd" and open carry pistols...and long guns in a few instances... the resulting media attention of those who stood out from the crowd by open carrying educated the public about the legality of open carry. And open carry of a pistol in Michigan has become pretty much accepted even when the carrier is the only one in a crowd... although carrying a long gun still creates controversy in much the same manner that carrying a pistol did in it's beginning.

Point being... if no one is willing to "stand out from the crowd" because they are afraid of being different, or shunned, or laughed at, or thought poorly of, then folks are willingly allowing the right to bear arms be held hostage by the mere opinions of other people.

 

[kennyredhill]

I drive by several reservations every day. They have Casinos and hotels that make millions of dollars of profit per month. If the "common" Indians are living in "concentration camps" today, it's not the American government's fault any longer.

Let’s say I show up at your house tonight, being the nice guy you are you invite me for dinner. Once I’m done eating I decide to take your kitchen and move you into the living room, then I decide to take the living room and move you up stairs. I then take the den but promise you the bedrooms are yours forever, until I find out you keep your gold in there. By the end of it all I have taken every thing but the bathrooms, I leave you the bathrooms and tell you, you can fix them up any way you please but you have to allow me access any time I want it. I also promise you millions of dollars for this but you never see a dime of it. Oh and while moving you I wiped out most of your family and left the rest in abject poverty. How do those bathrooms look now?