The trial of George Zimmerman

[ricardo900]

GZ & TM are both losers in this case! No matter what the outcome of the trial. If Zimmerman doesn't go to jail, his life and future will be forever changed, he'll have a virtual Scarlet letter on his chest. He'll be a prisoner in his own house, unable to freely go where ever he wants without the fear of being molested by the angry public. What about work? Career? And for what? Really for what?? Police officers get jammed up all the time being overzealous with these worthless perps. Zimmerman should have stayed in the car and reported what he sees. The "Eyes and Ears". Police just don't carry guns? They carry stun devices, batons and spray. Because every situation does not justify the use of deadly force. Call the police and let them handle it.

 

[ezkl2230]

Monitoring many news outlets. Nearly all are running with the line that (because his previous troubled history has been left out of deliberations) Martin has been demonized and was a misunderstood, innocent kid who was the victim of a racist, trigger happy, paranoid gun nut. Business Insider was blatant in their support for the prosecution case (Zimmerman is the "wannabe cop"). The New Black Panthers are getting quite a bit of exposure, with even their "national minister of education" being quoted by the outlets. The groundwork has been laid for riots. I live in Michigan, and I'm waiting to see how a verdict of anything less than 2nd degree murder is received. I think Detroit, Flint/Saginaw will explode; I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Sir Diealotz]

Epic

 

[ezkl2230]

Epic

Sad but true. The media are going all out to create the news here. It's too bad that they won't be held responsible for any damages or deaths that may occur as the result of their efforts to keep the pot stirred.

 

[ricardo900]

Sad but true. The media are going all out to create the news here. It's too bad that they won't be held responsible for any damages or deaths that may occur as the result of their efforts to keep the pot stirred.

The only job of the media is to make money! I mean the ONLY job of the media is to sell newspapers, sell online subscriptions and sell advertisement. The Media is not for you. The Media is a product that is sold, no better or other than Playboy or Penthouse Magazine. They only print what they can sell. They bring u the news because bringing the news will increase ratings and entice the advertisers. The only station out there for the people is PBS - Public Broadcasting System. They will always stir the pot, because that's ratings or otherwise, money in their pockets.

 

[Kramer1113]

Do any of you have Neighborhood watch groups in your area? We do here in the town I live in. In fact, they are given Patrol cars that are marked *Citizens On Patrol* (Right out of Police Academy Right?) I have seen them do some pretty cool stuff like direct traffic when they are first on the scene of an accident, give that extra patrol past the house when your on vacation, and I have seen some pretty dumb stuff to. Like coming into my place of business and having us call out a license plate and car type and color because they are not pulled far enough into a parking place.
But, In My Humble Opinion If I am a Neighborhood watch and I see a stranger or suspect someone is behaving oddly, I'm going to watch them. Imagine if you didn't and they hurt someone? Generally I would rather feel silly for having "Followed" or observed a harmless person than to have someone get hurt.
Mr. Zimmerman chose to "Get Involved". Many of us have stated that we would get involved if we witnessed a woman being dragged from a Dinner. I don't remember the thread but if you wrote it or posted on it, you remember.
Is it about race? Sometimes it is. My town is something like 97% White, 2% Hispanic and 1% "Other". If I see a Black man, woman, or child walking down the street or cutting through someones yard, guess what? It will get my attention. Does this make me a racist? I don't think so. I served in the United States Army with some of the finest soldiers that ever enlisted. Black, White, Brown, Yellow, Orange, Blue, but we were all Green.
So Why Scream Racist? Do you want me to be honest here or blow smoke up your butts?
When the word racist is gone, so is the biggest excuse to allow yourself to fail. Does anyone ever encounter a racist? Yep, But guess what? Get over it, move on.
Just like the new born pup, if you don't get any milk out of one tit, move on to the next.
When I moved to Florida from Toledo Ohio, and in particular to my small little town, A Damn Yankee didn't get hired. I went through over $30,000.00 in 9 months supporting my family and trying to get a Job. Finally a New manager took over a local Box Store (Not Walmart) and she was the daughter of the Mayor in the town my Military base was in (I rescued many a G.I. From Her Daddy, He knew me). Yes, Finally a job! It was discrimination of some kind, but I just kept trying until I found a tit with Milk.
All in All, Mr. Zimmerman started out that night to buy groceries from Target, and ended up facing a very long stretch in prison. He had every good intent in the world.
I hate that it turned out this way. Was it racist of him? I don't think so. I think George was trying to do some good for the Neighborhood.

 

[BluesStringer]

I agree wholeheartedly about his intentions, they were good. His instincts, however, could use some work. I'd say the same about Trayvon if he had survived. George should've, at some point before the fight started, or even during the fight, identified himself as the neighborhood watch guy. Preferably, when he first saw the guy in the rain, he should've calmly offered him a lift to where he was going, or at least said he was with NW and could he help the stranger find an address or something. He was still in his car, still protected from being assaulted, and seriously, it was raining, it would've just been the nice thing to do. Maybe Trayvon would've told him to F-off, or maybe, just maybe, he would've just said nah, my dad's girlfriend lives right around the corner. I'll be fine, but thanks for the offer.

His instincts never inspired him to be helpful instead of being openly suspicious, unfriendly, and it's not unreasonable to think that his following and looking around could've been misconstrued as aggressive and threatening to Trayvon. It doesn't excuse Trayvon's response, but neither does the belief that the shot being fired was legitimate, legal self defense, absolve Zimmerman of his failures that night. It bugged me in the Hannity interview when he was asked if he regretted anything that night, and he said no. Doesn't sound like he went to work on the instincts and human foibles that led to a young man's death, no matter how inappropriate his actions were too. I'd regret having to shoot and kill someone no matter what the circumstances. If it's "God's plan" that someone die so that I can stay alive, I'll find that out in the Great By and By, between me and the Lord. I would never say something like that in public though. His apology to Trayvon's parents seemed rather hollow in light of the fact that he put the responsibility for the events off on God. Maybe I'm over-thinking it, but that's what I thought the second I heard it. That was my instinct.

Blues

 

[S&W645]

The only job of the media is to make money! I mean the ONLY job of the media is to sell newspapers, sell online subscriptions and sell advertisement. The Media is not for you. The Media is a product that is sold, no better or other than Playboy or Penthouse Magazine. They only print what they can sell. They bring u the news because bringing the news will increase ratings and entice the advertisers. The only station out there for the people is PBS - Public Broadcasting System. They will always stir the pot, because that's ratings or otherwise, money in their pockets.

Sorry but PBS is just as biased and is in it for the money. PBS has always had a leftwing slant.

 

[ricardo900]

Sorry but PBS is just as biased and is in it for the money. PBS has always had a leftwing slant.

Jeeesh! I guess there's nothing out there for the people.

 

[Kramer1113]

I agree wholeheartedly about his intentions, they were good. His instincts, however, could use some work. I'd say the same about Trayvon if he had survived. George should've, at some point before the fight started, or even during the fight, identified himself as the neighborhood watch guy. Preferably, when he first saw the guy in the rain, he should've calmly offered him a lift to where he was going, or at least said he was with NW and could he help the stranger find an address or something. He was still in his car, still protected from being assaulted, and seriously, it was raining, it would've just been the nice thing to do. Maybe Trayvon would've told him to F-off, or maybe, just maybe, he would've just said nah, my dad's girlfriend lives right around the corner. I'll be fine, but thanks for the offer.

His instincts never inspired him to be helpful instead of being openly suspicious, unfriendly, and it's not unreasonable to think that his following and looking around could've been misconstrued as aggressive and threatening to Trayvon. It doesn't excuse Trayvon's response, but neither does the belief that the shot being fired was legitimate, legal self defense, absolve Zimmerman of his failures that night. It bugged me in the Hannity interview when he was asked if he regretted anything that night, and he said no. Doesn't sound like he went to work on the instincts and human foibles that led to a young man's death, no matter how inappropriate his actions were too. I'd regret having to shoot and kill someone no matter what the circumstances. If it's "God's plan" that someone die so that I can stay alive, I'll find that out in the Great By and By, between me and the Lord. I would never say something like that in public though. His apology to Trayvon's parents seemed rather hollow in light of the fact that he put the responsibility for the events off on God. Maybe I'm over-thinking it, but that's what I thought the second I heard it. That was my instinct.

Blues

Hey Blues,
I agree with much of your statement. The only area that wasn't addressed was the emotional aspect of this.
Mr. Zimmerman had an emotional attachment to his neighborhood. He gave a fine example of the pride he took in it by becoming a member of the neighborhood watch.
We don't know what is Normal for his neighborhood, but he does. This is why Mr. Martin looked out of place, Abnormal if you will. You know what is normal in your neighborhood and what is not.
I feel as though Mr. Zimmerman took the high number of break-ins in his neighborhood personally. As he stated in the 911 call "These ******* Always get away with it". If it wasn't personal that statement alone would never have been said.
I knew my days of "Cop" (And yes, Military Police I know, I know, its different) were over when I was apprehending a shop lifter and as we were struggling I lost my peripheral vision and I tunnel visioned out on the guy.
Any cop will tell you, you had better not tunnel vision on the perp, because as soon as you lose sight of whats around you one of his buddies will come up and jack you.

 

[gejoslin]

Jeeesh! I guess there's nothing out there for the people.

If you want the truth of a story you really have to listen to all the stories, printed or reported. Every news org has their own slant and their own agenda. Every reporter has their own point of view and they're going to report it the way they see it. Then there's the truth. Just the way it is.

 

[BluesStringer]

Hey Blues,
I agree with much of your statement. The only area that wasn't addressed was the emotional aspect of this.

It wasn't addressed for a reason though, Kramer. Zimmerman has the law on his side from all the evidence. The jury can't be able to imagine any reasonable hypothesis that points to self defense and still convict him.

On the other hand, the law is nowhere to be found in the prosecution's case, and it showed in their closing arguments. It was nothing but emotional tearing at the heartstrings. Not one single element of 2nd degree or manslaughter was proven beyond a reasonable doubt, nor was self defense proven to be illegitimate under FL state law.

I have tried to stick like glue to the facts and the law, and leave emotional arguments out of it, thus, I didn't address it, and will try to continue not to, at least until a verdict is in and the public opinion is all that's left to talk about.

Mr. Zimmerman had an emotional attachment to his neighborhood. He gave a fine example of the pride he took in it by becoming a member of the neighborhood watch.

And how has his emotional pride worked out for the reputation of the Retreat at Twin Lakes now? Better instincts would've gone a lot further in protecting his neighborhood's reputation than shooting and killing a young man who, likewise, had poor instincts on that night. That premise is inherent in what I've been saying.

We don't know what is Normal for his neighborhood, but he does. This is why Mr. Martin looked out of place, Abnormal if you will. You know what is normal in your neighborhood and what is not.

I've not questioned whether or not noticing someone as being out of place was appropriate, I have only questioned his response after taking that note. I think asking the kid if he could help him find an address or something would've deescalated the situation before it ever began. That would've been my instinct to try first. It would not have either expressed an abundance of suspicion on Zimmerman's part, nor automatically triggered an aggressive response on Martin's part. Both of their instincts were not thinking two or three steps ahead of the actions they took on that night though. Their emotions and tunnel vision got the better of them both. I think what Zimmerman did was legal, but I hardly think he is above criticism or scrutiny for not thinking far enough ahead to avoid having to do it.

I feel as though Mr. Zimmerman took the high number of break-ins in his neighborhood personally. As he stated in the 911 call "These ******* Always get away with it". If it wasn't personal that statement alone would never have been said.

Well, not to get too awful nit-picky, but that's not exactly what he said, nor is it in the context in which his similar statement was uttered. First, there was no "...with it" at the end of his statement. It was, "These ********** always get away," and the context was that they always got away because the cops' response time was always too long. He said, "Get an officer over here." The dispatcher replied, "Yeah, we got someone on their way." And that's when GZ said what he said, and he clarified either on Hannity or in the cop interview that he was referring to response time, and not really personalizing it towards Martin. It's a minor point, but if we're going to discuss it, we might as well get both the words and the context as accurate as we can, right?

I knew my days of "Cop" (And yes, Military Police I know, I know, its different) were over when I was apprehending a shop lifter and as we were struggling I lost my peripheral vision and I tunnel visioned out on the guy.

Don't you think Zimmerman had tunnel vision about who/what Martin was from the instant he saw him though? He called the cops within seconds of seeing him, and he started out with way more exaggerated levels of suspicion than was warranted just because a guy with a hoodie is walking down the street on a rainy night. At least two of Zimmerman's neighbors who testified are black. Tracy Martin's fiance is black. Presumably those aren't the only three blacks in the neighborhood, and kids with khaki pants and hoodies on is not all that unusual. His instinct was to hyper-drive his suspicion instead of just offering his aid to a visitor to his neighborhood. The evidence all points to George Zimmerman being anything but a racist, but whatever his instinctual rationale for being suspicious of Martin was, it was wrong. Not illegal mind you, but wrong nonetheless, and I personally don't see how anyone who identifies with the neighborhood watch "mindset" (which I definitely do) could see it as inappropriate to criticize him for not foreseeing how bad things could go when he was so wrong in both thought and deed.

Bottom line for me, Kramer, is that I am actively trying to take emotion out of it and just scrutinize the whole thing as objectively as I can. If the jury comes back with a guilty verdict, I will express some anger at the system for whatever went wrong that it didn't allow those jurors to apply the law as-written and intended. Likewise, I will see Zimmerman as a victim of a corrupt system that never had a legal rationale to bring the case to begin with, and I'll express some sympathetic outrage on Zimmerman's behalf because of that. What I won't do though, is succumb to the emotional response that, because his intentions were good, that he did nothing wrong, or worthy of criticism, or his actions can't be scrutinized in the exact same way I would scrutinize my own actions if I had to shoot someone legally, but upon objective scrutiny, realize that there were things I could've done differently to have avoided the need to. Every engagement gets an after-action analysis, and like I said before, it seems to me that George is oblivious to the usefulness and need for such self-scrutiny when he says he doesn't regret anything that happened that night because, he said, it was all in "God's hands" or something close to that.

Blues

 

[Kramer1113]

It wasn't addressed for a reason though, Kramer. Zimmerman has the law on his side from all the evidence. The jury can't be able to imagine any reasonable hypothesis that points to self defense and still convict him.

On the other hand, the law is nowhere to be found in the prosecution's case, and it showed in their closing arguments. It was nothing but emotional tearing at the heartstrings. Not one single element of 2nd degree or manslaughter was proven beyond a reasonable doubt, nor was self defense proven to be illegitimate under FL state law.

I have tried to stick like glue to the facts and the law, and leave emotional arguments out of it, thus, I didn't address it, and will try to continue not to, at least until a verdict is in and the public opinion is all that's left to talk about.



And how has his emotional pride worked out for the reputation of the Retreat at Twin Lakes now? Better instincts would've gone a lot further in protecting his neighborhood's reputation than shooting and killing a young man who, likewise, had poor instincts on that night. That premise is inherent in what I've been saying.



I've not questioned whether or not noticing someone as being out of place was appropriate, I have only questioned his response after taking that note. I think asking the kid if he could help him find an address or something would've deescalated the situation before it ever began. That would've been my instinct to try first. It would not have either expressed an abundance of suspicion on Zimmerman's part, nor automatically triggered an aggressive response on Martin's part. Both of their instincts were not thinking two or three steps ahead of the actions they took on that night though. Their emotions and tunnel vision got the better of them both. I think what Zimmerman did was legal, but I hardly think he is above criticism or scrutiny for not thinking far enough ahead to avoid having to do it.



Well, not to get too awful nit-picky, but that's not exactly what he said, nor is it in the context in which his similar statement was uttered. First, there was no "...with it" at the end of his statement. It was, "These ********** always get away," and the context was that they always got away because the cops' response time was always too long. He said, "Get an officer over here." The dispatcher replied, "Yeah, we got someone on their way." And that's when GZ said what he said, and he clarified either on Hannity or in the cop interview that he was referring to response time, and not really personalizing it towards Martin. It's a minor point, but if we're going to discuss it, we might as well get both the words and the context as accurate as we can, right?



Don't you think Zimmerman had tunnel vision about who/what Martin was from the instant he saw him though? He called the cops within seconds of seeing him, and he started out with way more exaggerated levels of suspicion than was warranted just because a guy with a hoodie is walking down the street on a rainy night. At least two of Zimmerman's neighbors who testified are black. Tracy Martin's fiance is black. Presumably those aren't the only three blacks in the neighborhood, and kids with khaki pants and hoodies on is not all that unusual. His instinct was to hyper-drive his suspicion instead of just offering his aid to a visitor to his neighborhood. The evidence all points to George Zimmerman being anything but a racist, but whatever his instinctual rationale for being suspicious of Martin was, it was wrong. Not illegal mind you, but wrong nonetheless, and I personally don't see how anyone who identifies with the neighborhood watch "mindset" (which I definitely do) could see it as inappropriate to criticize him for not foreseeing how bad things could go when he was so wrong in both thought and deed.

Bottom line for me, Kramer, is that I am actively trying to take emotion out of it and just scrutinize the whole thing as objectively as I can. If the jury comes back with a guilty verdict, I will express some anger at the system for whatever went wrong that it didn't allow those jurors to apply the law as-written and intended. Likewise, I will see Zimmerman as a victim of a corrupt system that never had a legal rationale to bring the case to begin with, and I'll express some sympathetic outrage on Zimmerman's behalf because of that. What I won't do though, is succumb to the emotional response that, because his intentions were good, that he did nothing wrong, or worthy of criticism, or his actions can't be scrutinized in the exact same way I would scrutinize my own actions if I had to shoot someone legally, but upon objective scrutiny, realize that there were things I could've done differently to have avoided the need to. Every engagement gets an after-action analysis, and like I said before, it seems to me that George is oblivious to the usefulness and need for such self-scrutiny when he says he doesn't regret anything that happened that night because, he said, it was all in "God's hands" or something close to that.

Blues

Agree, Agree, Agree, and Agree. Emotion has No Place in Law Enforcement and it is difficult to keep it out. Generally the suppression of emotion is why a lot of cops find themselves at the bottom of a bottle.
You See, Zimmerman couldn't help himself. He was emotionally charged going in, so clear judgement is out the window.
And I am sure he tunnel visioned on Martin, again, Tunnel Vision has no place in Law Enforcement. Failing #2.
*Thank you for the correction on the statement. None the less it was said because of his emotional attachment.

Hindsight is a great thing. I am sure Mr. Zimmerman second and third and fourth guessed himself until he just had to accept that it was as it was and there was no going back.

It, Being in Gods hands, then and now are rather interesting statements.
We to often forget there is a Devil at play.
It is in Gods hands, everything always is.
One day Mr. Zimmerman will stand before the Lord no matter what the Jury comes back and says, and he will answer for what is in his heart.

Despite his faults I find Mr. Zimmerman to be credible, In My Humble Opinion. Other do not. No matter what the Jury comes back with I am pretty sure things went down a lot like what Mr. Zimmerman has said. Just My Opinion.

I also agree to many stupid things came together that night and added up to a 17 year old laying face down dead in the rain. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.

 

[ezkl2230]

Here is a rundown of the women on the jury; see if any details in the descriptions of these women give you cause for concern about Zimmerman's ability to get a fair trial:

Link Removed

BTW, here are the instructions given to the jury regarding a charge of manslaughter:

MANSLAUGHTER
To prove the crime of Manslaughter, the State must prove the following two elements beyond a reasonable doubt:
1. Trayvon Martin is dead.
2. George Zimmerman intentionally committed an act or acts that caused the death of Trayvon Martin.

George Zimmerman cannot be guilty of manslaughter by committing a merely negligent act or if the killing was either justifiable or excusable homicide:
Each of us has a duty to act reasonably toward others. If there is a violation of that duty, without any conscious intention to harm, that violation is negligence.
The killing of a human being is justifiable homicide and lawful if necessarily done while resisting an attempt to murder or commit a felony upon George Zimmerman, or to commit a felony in any dwelling house in which George Zimmerman was at the time of the killing.

The killing of a human being is excusable, and therefore lawful, under any one of the following three circumstances:
1. When the killing is committed by accident and misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means with usual ordinary caution and without any unlawful intent, or
2. When the killing occurs by accident and misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or
3. When the killing is committed by accident and misfortune resulting from a sudden combat, if a dangerous weapon is not used and the killing is not done in a cruel or unusual manner.

In order to convict of manslaughter by act, it is not necessary for the State to prove that George Zimmerman had an intent to cause death, only an intent to commit an act that was not merely negligent, justified, or excusable and which caused death.

If you find George Zimmerman committed Manslaughter, and you also find beyond a reasonable doubt that during the commission of the Manslaughter, George Zimmerman carried, displayed, used, threatened to use, or attempted to use a firearm, you should check the appropriate box on the verdict form which I will discuss with you later in these instructions.

Zimmerman jury asks for 'clarificaton' on manslaughter charge

 

[BluesStringer]

I'm listening to some pundits say that the jury is likely "past" the murder 2 charge, and on to the manslaughter charge because of taking the instructions in chronological order. They say that it's possible that they don't understand that if self defense applied to murder 2, it likewise applies to manslaughter. I thought O'Mara was as clear on that point as he could be, even if the instructions weren't. I seriously doubt that self defense is still on the table. I hope I'm wrong, but if it is still on the table, that necessarily means that they don't fully understand the law. I don't see how that can help Zimmerman.

Blues

 

[Kramer1113]

OH MY, Did you just hear that Guy on FOX news say that he has "Insight" on this and he said its 5 to 1, 5 for acquittal and one is now looking at manslaughter. I sure hope this guy just didn't poop on this case.

 

[recithree]

nothing against nancy grace as a person but she just said it again. "what was he doing carrying a gun ,loaded, with bullets" she finds it so unusual to carry a gun out running errands.are we suppose to carry only when we are going somewhere dangerous?you avoid those areas and carry whenever you can.period.

 

[Bigcarlover]

nothing against nancy grace as a person but she just said it again. "what was he doing carrying a gun ,loaded, with bullets" she finds it so unusual to carry a gun out running errands.are we suppose to carry only when we are going somewhere dangerous?you avoid those areas and carry whenever you can.period.

Nancy Grace is a complete moron.

 

[BIGJOHN621]

OH MY, Did you just hear that Guy on FOX news say that he has "Insight" on this and he said its 5 to 1, 5 for acquittal and one is now looking at manslaughter. I sure hope this guy just didn't poop on this case.

We are ready for the riots to hit should he be acquitted. The verdict coupled with an ethnic parade and celebration that always causes a lot of issues once the liquor soaks in should make tomorrow the worst day on my calendar. Hope it is a one shift day as scheduled but something tells me I'm not going home at 3 like I think I am.....

 

[ezkl2230]

nothing against nancy grace as a person but she just said it again. "what was he doing carrying a gun ,loaded, with bullets" she finds it so unusual to carry a gun out running errands.are we suppose to carry only when we are going somewhere dangerous?you avoid those areas and carry whenever you can.period.

I would think it more unusual if he had been carrying a gun, unloaded, without bullets.

But that's probably just me.