BC1
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He's not destroying anyone. Let him take a ghetto walk. They'll kill him for his wallet alone. Forget the gun.
Open carry confrontations
- Thread starter vernsimpson
- Start date
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Bikenut
Guest
I did not misread your post... here it is again...
you used an example of how many LEO's are shot with their own gun as an implied comparison that civilian OC'ers will suffer the same fate. Do not attempt to evade or redirect... it is insulting. And there isn't any need to reference emotional maturity unless you are hoping to use ridicule to strengthen your argument.
And it is disingenuous to suggest using a google search to prove your point yet say that a google search isn't reliable enough to prove that your point doesn't apply.
Can a gun grab/shot with own gun happen to a civilian? Of course it can. But to try to imply that just because it happens to a large number of cops it will also happen to a large number of OC'ers.... is nothing more than fear mongering against OC using a red herring for an example.
When incidents of gun grabs/shot with their own gun incidents happen to civilian OC'ers in any number approaching the incidents involving LEO ... THEN your implied comparison would be credible. But since that is not the case using the LEO implication just doesn't work and is really a back handed scare tactic hoping to show that OC'ers will get shot by their own guns just as often as the cops do.
The implied comparison is a faulty premise.
If what you hoped to convey is that there are bad guys out there who aren't scared of civilians openly carrying guns then again.... please provide cites and/or links to how often that happens to civilians so folks can have fact based data upon which to decide if OC presents a statistically significant possibility of a bad guy taking their gun and shooting them with it.
Hmmm... if they will kill me for my wallet alone doesn't that mean I wasn't targeted for my openly carried gun?
By the way... trying to redirect the conversation into how much of a bad ass I'm not if I don't intentionally go into the bad part of town at O dark 30...implying that if I'm not some kind of bad ass then my argument is not valid...........is just another false premise and is not going to help with your argument.
tricolordad
Banned
Yeah yeah quote the ghetto walk crap. Where you grow up? I grew up in Staten. Didn't nobody bother me when I tucked a .38 in the front of my pants every day and walked down the halls past the crackhouse, past the gangstas who charge you to use the elevator, past the pimp who kept his women in the stairway on their "breaks" and past every other thug on the way to school. Things ain't quite as bad as they were then. Your "ghetto" excuse is played out. Thus, it is invalid.
tricolordad
Banned
Once again, I'm gonna say it: if you choose to OC, the only people who will ever have a problem with it are of two types...
1. The anti. He does not own a gun, has never used one and knows nothing about them. He backs up his wild claims with insults and makes death threats.
2. The CC only guy. He will walk across the room to tell you all about how he conceals his gun so nobody will know he has it, thus invalidating the concept of conceal carry.
Yet, we never see an OC guy harrassing a CC guy...
1. The anti. He does not own a gun, has never used one and knows nothing about them. He backs up his wild claims with insults and makes death threats.
2. The CC only guy. He will walk across the room to tell you all about how he conceals his gun so nobody will know he has it, thus invalidating the concept of conceal carry.
Yet, we never see an OC guy harrassing a CC guy...
BC1
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What the hell are you talking about? Comprehension. Focus on the statements, not what they infer to you. Once again you're saying I inferred that just because it happens to a cop it WILL happen to a civilian. I did not say it WILL happen. I inferred it CAN happen. To argue anything else is absurd. Once again I'm telling you the cop thing illustrates how nuts people are, not whether OC is a good or bad idea. Personally I don't care how people carry. OC or CC doesn't matter to me. I don't offer an opinion of which is better. It's purely a personal decision.
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The emotional maturity thing is in response to your uncalled-for statement "Well... I was unaware that I was responding to the biggest bad ass ever to post about his prowess on an internet forum." That's a hell of a thing to say to someone you don't know, especially with my credentials. I'm not argueing with you about OC being a good or bad idea. Do you understand this?
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And if they'll murder you for the wallet, they'll murder you for the gun, or your car... or to rape your daughter or molest your little boy. They're friggin animals, don't ever forget that.
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Dad, don't want to burst your bubble but Staten Island isn't a bad place. In my opinion it never was. Neither is Manhattan or even harlem for that matter. The local organized crime element made it (as well as Bay Ridge Brooklyn) quite safe. You don't screw around too much in those neighborhoods. The cops don't get called, perps just get handled. But try that one in East NY, particularly in New Lots or Bushwick back when you lived here. The ghetto walk is done by all of us everyday. Because hoodrats shop at Walmart too. The mentality of these people applies because they're all around us, not just in the hood. Pimps and drug dealers aren't disrupting neighborhood business by indiscriminantly attaking people. Pimps don't bother anyone unless they don't pay the ho. And they don't generally allow rampant crime in their area beause of the undue attention it brings from police. It disrupts business.
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To all... when I see the heat in posters' responses it seems the conversation has hit a nerve. When a poster throws an insult it shows me an emotional lability that calls into question their ability to keep their head in the heat. Perhaps temperment not suitable to carrying a gun. Never act on emotion. Keep your heads. Don't insult ANYONE over their opinion. One thing I've learned is that anything can happen at anytime to anyone. Learned it the hard way with the murder of a small child. What are the chances that a deranged sex-offender will enter from the woods in a quiet farming community, abduct a child into the woods, molest and stab him to death? Next to zero. Don't generalize and NEVER assume you know a man or what's in his heart and mind, why he thinks a certain way or why he may protect his family with an ugly vengeance. Experiences will change you, reshape how think. And don't go anywhere near the death of this child in your response. It' was merely stated to help you understand a mindset. I trust no one. NO ONE. Ever. And the death of that little angel is precisely why. So I would advise everyone to assume anything can happen. As I was taught, be nice and kind to all... and have a plane to "off" everyone you meet.
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The conversation is really a dead issue because I don't disagree with any of you regarding your decision to OC.
whodat2710
New member
You know, all debates aside, if a state allows open carry most store owners are aware of this. If they would rather not have you carrying at all and post a sign requesting this you are being an ass by testing it. Think about the struggles small business owners have gone through with the present administration and it's policies. If they don't want your business because you want to exercise your right to carry, let them feel the pain of you taking your business elsewhere. If you choose to carry concealed in the establishment, you are stomping on the right of the business owner to have it his way in his own damn business. Hell, you could even ask for the owner and let them know that you would have spent your money there if they weren't anal retentive about the states laws. Personally I carry openly (in VA) if I am going somewhere to shoot. It's easier than carrying a big box of guns.
tricolordad
Banned
Let me clarify a few things for you. First, the cops don't get called because nobody wants to be a witness. What's in it for them? A beating? A driveby? A few stabs in the neck and back and a nice cold trip to the bottom of the harbor? It's called the No Snitchin Rule. Second, just like the Marcy is famous for crack dealers and Jay-Z, every hood got a few buildings the unfortunate must live in with the decay of society. Nobody expects to see you there backing up your claims. I also don't see you telling me that you feel safe on the corner of 105 & Broadway, I don't see you telling me queensbridge aint that bad, and I don't see the words bedstuy or Soho in your posts. You out of touch with reality. Last time I went to NYC, 2006 to bury my uncle, I was walking out of the Canal St station and watched a dude who had nothing to do with these two dudes argument get shot 19 times. They both turned and shot HIM. Coulda been me. He was walking on the sidewalk on the other side of the street right outside the UN. There was still beat cops standing around. Next day, I was crossing the street by the Apple Store to walk through central, a dude jumps out of the back of a taxi and lights up a green SUV and runs. In front of beat cops. So you right about the cops not arresting dudes, but it's not for the reasons you say. It's self preservation. They'd rather sit back and watch ESU unload a few 30 round mags on TV instead of earn their pay.
Your walk through a walmart is nothing like a walk through the hood unless that walmart is in that hood. Just a grain of truth to anything you say on this subject.
You say that we shouldn't insult anyone over their opinion, yet you been doing that the whole time. You insult me by pretending to know what it was like where I grew up. Like I said before, you base it all on a grain of truth.
Edit: And you're wrong about that pimp, he used to throw me down the stairs. He used to take little girls into the bathroom and rape them. Nobody could do nothing about it. That's why I stole that .38. I was sick of limping to school. You know how hard it is for a little arab boy to limp to school in a black neighborhood?
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Bikenut
Guest
When I see someone evade and avoid providing cites and/or links I know that person has nothing to support their argument/premise.
When I see someone set themselves up as judge as to who shouldn't have a gun I know I'm seeing someone who purports to support the right to keep and bear arms but really thinks only those who meet their standards should have guns.
BC1
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Dad, I know exactly what it's like where you grew up because I grew-up there too. And I'm still in NYC at least twice per week. I went to college there. Hung-out in every neighborhood. Best friend is from New Lots. I've owned a business in Manhattan for over 20 years. Areas like Bedford Stuy, Bushwick and New Lots are now good places to live. East NY has seen a re-emergence of new housing, cleanups and upper-class residents. And SoHo? Among the trendiest, most sought-ater places to live. Beautiful lofts built in old warehouses. JFK Jr. lived there for many years before his death. You claim I don't mention 105th and B-way? I get off the train at 125th (Harlem) and walk to appointments regularly. No trouble. Street-level dealers? Yes. Trouble? Not much anymore. NYC crime rates have declined significantly since you left. The big trouble cities in NY are now Newburgh, Poughkeepsie, Middletown, Monticello, etc. The crime rates (especially homicide and gang-related) are much higher than NYC per capita. I believe Newburgh is now number one.
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If my opinion insults you please accept my apologies as it's not meant to do so. Opinions are the basis of healthy discussions. All are welcome to me.
BC1
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Question... will you give a gun legally to the person who murdered our little guy? Or yours? After his release he did it again and once again he's been released. Want to give him a gun legally? Just because he paid his debt to society? He didn't owe a debt to society. He owed it to his victim.s No, I've read a lot of your posts and they're very sound, good contributions. I can't imagine you wanting to leglly arm the worst of society. I think at times we all want to remove constitutional rights of certain people because our justice system is failing. And again, I support your right to OC. Just be careful, that's all.
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Bikenut
Guest
Quite frankly I would not remove any person's right to keep and bear arms... However, I would remove any violent person from society.
It isn't about the gun... it is all about the violent person because if that violent person didn't have a gun they would use something else, anything else, to commit their violence.
The only sure way to prevent a violent person from inflicting more violence is to remove the opportunity to find a victim.
The problem isn't the right to keep and bear arms... the problem is our judicial system definition of what constitutes a "dept to society". What should be done with violent criminals is to lock them up and never let them out.
Even though we may not agree on some things my heart aches for your pain. But please understand no gun caused that terrible tragedy... the evil person who used the gun caused it. Please focus your pain, your sorrow, your need for closure, onto the criminal who did the crime... and upon a judicial system that is nothing more than "catch and release".
UrbanArmed
New member
Why on earth would you walk around downtown Detroit at 1:00 AM? If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
golddigger14s
SFC At Fort Lewis, WA
Nothing like admitting to a felony as a minor online for all to see. Something to be proud of.
BC1
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In understand completely. And thanks for your kind words. He should be removed from society. It's that damn liberal, touchy-feely element that keeps releasing these people back on all of us.
BC1
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Originally Posted by tricolordad: And you're wrong about that pimp, he used to throw me down the stairs. He used to take little girls into the bathroom and rape them. Nobody could do nothing about it. That's why I stole that .38. I was sick of limping to school. You know how hard it is for a little arab boy to limp to school in a black neighborhood?
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A good book for all of us that grew up in NY during those times is "Brooklyn Bounce" by Joe Poss. He was a cop in the 75th around East New York who started out with good intentions and eventually turned. A particularly funny part is where he goes to a call and there's this pimp who's been beating/raping an underage girl. He threw the guy down the stairs into the waiting arms of CPS and detectives. EMS took him away, CPS and the detectives laughed it off. Street justice from cops who know the system doesn't work. Some people chastise this but we're talking about a place so dangerous and crime ridden that cops didn't stop at red lights for fear that the car would be shot at.
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A good book for all of us that grew up in NY during those times is "Brooklyn Bounce" by Joe Poss. He was a cop in the 75th around East New York who started out with good intentions and eventually turned. A particularly funny part is where he goes to a call and there's this pimp who's been beating/raping an underage girl. He threw the guy down the stairs into the waiting arms of CPS and detectives. EMS took him away, CPS and the detectives laughed it off. Street justice from cops who know the system doesn't work. Some people chastise this but we're talking about a place so dangerous and crime ridden that cops didn't stop at red lights for fear that the car would be shot at.
Casinos, Greektown, Red Wings, Cobo Hall, the riverfront.
Same reason you would walk around downtown Chicago, New York, Miami, LA or any of a hundred other big cities. Night life.
Just because it is Detroit doesn't mean the entire downtown is bad. It is the criminal element that exists everywhere that is the problem.
kwimby
Banned
Of course it "is" credible because the numbers are representative samples of the relative populations. Count the number of uniformed LEOs compared to the number of OC'ers you see next time you are out and about. Then do the math.
No, it is an absolutely true and reasonable premise, see comment above, then do some more math.
Figures don't lie, but liars do figure. If you figure numbers that don't exist might make or break your point, maybe you are the one who should be looking for them. Common sense holds up the other end, thank you very much. Sometimes they don't even need a bad guy to bork it up:
Bangor incident shows problem with open carry | Sun Journal
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Bikenut
Guest
As for the "figures don't lie but liars do figure" thing..... got some to support your premise or will you just rely on hoping the concept of "common sense" will suffice?
Let's not depend on any individual's definition of what constitutes "common sense"... let's go with cold hard facts. Got some to support your premise? One more time... how many OC'ers have had their guns taken away and been shot with it? Please provide cites and/or links to those incidents.
Now compare those exceedingly rare incidents with how many hours, nay... decades, of OC is represented by folks in just Arizona and then compare that with the paucity of incidents where OC'ers have had their guns taken away and were shot with them in the entire country.
Now do the math... and compare those extremely rare OC by civilian incidents with the multitude of incidents involving LEO's.
Let's see some numbers to support the premise that civilian OC'ers will have their guns taken and get shot with them because cops get their guns taken and get shot by them.... so folks can do the math and decide for themselves instead of just throwing out statements unsupported by facts and expect folks to just accept that "common sense" says so.
Facts.... let's try dealing with facts!!!
Oh.. and that article you linked to does not say if the guy was OCing or CCing when he showed his gun to someone else on the bus but it carefully led folks to believe there was a connection between OC and the guy on the bus......and then the article implies (there is that "implying" thing again) that OC is the terrible villain that will cause all the other scary scenarios listed. Not to mention that all of those scenarios could be applied to CC'ers too... yet other than the legal OC'ers in the beginning of the article who did nothing wrong!!!! there aren't any facts whether folks are OCing or CCing in any of it...
Actually I commend the author for being able to take the legal open carrying of guns that resulted in absolutely no harm to anyone and use implication and careful misdirection to present the "common sense" premise that if people are allowed to carry guns blood will run in the streets!! MY GOD!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
I recommend folks actually read that article and see how adroitly the author leads them from legal OC to a scary blood will run in the streets conclusion.
kwimby
Banned
Stupid guy OC'ing on a bus in Bangor lucky he didn't kill somebody.
That "fact" enough for ya? It's called opportunity. Give a dumb arse the opportunity and he'll use it.
Even if it is to just spout rhetoric in a web forum.
tricolordad
Banned
Sometimes what's wrong is right. I would not be alive today had I not done that. Jump off a bridge if it bothers you so much.
