Just stoped for open carry in ihop

[KCD1974]

I do want to make something clear, I'm not getting rocked by negative responses or anything, but I'm against all of this as well. I think every state should have constitutional carry and "castle doctrines" that extend to any where I happen to be. So while I did bring up the other side of the coin, it is NOT because I don't feel OC'ing is a bad idea or because I'm a slightly liberal gun owner that happens to carry.

I FULLY support anyone's decision to carry in what ever manner is legal. My point was, don't be surprised (correct action or NOT) if you get questioned by the police when you do OC. I don't think you should get questioned but odds are you will, as wrong as it may be. Knowing that, you can choose to conceal and most likely avoid more situations like this or OC and carry yourself in a more professional manner than those that are questioning your right to do so incorrectly.

I don't want to get tagged as a lefty gun man lol

 

[NavyLCDR]

KCD1974,

I think what raised the red flag with some of us is your use of the words "probable cause" in relation to someone doing something out of the ordinary. Probable cause is a legal term that means that actual evidence has been gained from an investigation that would cause a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been/is/about to be committed. Probable cause means that enough evidence exists to arrest or issue a citation to the person for a violatiion.

To us, it sounded like you were saying that the mere presence of a firearm JUSTIFIES an investigation. While police may certainly investigate whatever they want to, they must have reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime is afoot in order to detain a person for the purpose of investigation. In most states, the mere presence of a firearm does not provide RAS to detain a person.

That is why it is so vitally important, when approached by a LEO in a situation such as the OP presented to immediately ask, "Officer, are you detaining me?"

 

[M1911a1lvr]

Link Removed

KIDNAPPER!

I would have to say that you need to be arrested for forgery, copy right infringement, indecent exposure and vandalism. Since that isn't maple syrup you have there. It is a false representation, imitation, product substitute for the real thing. It's maple flavored from chemicals and it is corn syrup on top of that. In Vermont it is ILLEGAL to even call it maple syrup.....lol....

 

[BC1]

Does anyone have citations on this issue? Has any LE agency ever been successfully sued because they asked for a license or ID?

 

[BC1]

You've been behind enemy lines far too long.

If the Officer is stupid enough to conduct a false arrest I'll gladly take the payday. I wore a badge long enough I'm not afraid of an idiot wearing one.

For false arrest yes. Just for asking for my ID? Not enough money in it. The effort expended can't justify the payout. Citations would be nice to see.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Does anyone have citations on this issue? Has any LE agency ever been successfully sued because they asked for a license or ID?

Only if the LEO unlawfully detained the person in order to obtain the license and/or ID. Again, "Am I being detained?" is a very important question to ask.

Link Removed

Link Removed

This was the unlawful detention that resulted in the court case win against the police department:

Once outside, Officer McColley continued to restrain Mr. St. John's left arm while
Defendants removed the gun from Mr. St. John's holster, removed the gun's magazine and cleared
a chambered bullet. Defendants then instructed Mr. St. John to place his hands on a nearby wall
and proceeded to pat him down. No contraband or additional weapons were found on Mr. St.
John and a police database check revealed that he possessed the gun lawfully.
Having taken the weapon, Officer McColley informed Mr. St. John that he could return to
the movie if he left the gun in his truck. Mr. St. John agreed and led officers to his truck, where
they placed the unloaded gun. Mr. St. John reloaded and recocked the weapon before leaving it in
the truck and returning to the Theater for the remainder of the movie. Throughout the incident,
which Mr. St. John estimates took approximately thirty minutes, St. John Depo. 118:22, Mr. St.
John was, as Officer McColley recalls, "respectful and cooperative."

In this case, due to the totality of circumstances, the court ruled that the police did detain Mr. St. John. However, asking if you are being detained removes that initial question that must be settled by the court.

 

[BC1]

Only if the LEO unlawfully detained the person in order to obtain the license and/or ID. Again, "Am I being detained?" is a very important question to ask.

After careful thought I took your advice on this some time ago. Passed it on to my wife. Sure enough she became the victim of an overzealous LEO in September 2011 who wanted to search her car. She parked crooked far away from the store, but within a single parking spot. He tried to claim probable cause saying he thought she was drunk. My wife hasn't drank since our college days. He said she took too long to exit the car. He said she was evasive when questioned.

She held fast to the advice. She refused to answer his questions. She refused to consent to search. She asked if she was being detained and he replied "yes." Our best friend (attorney) and I went to the parking lot and our friend pulled the LEO aside. A few minutes later he apologized to her and left. Took the parking ticket with him too. When I asked ny friend what he said to the LEO he replied, "I told him to arrest her for DUI. When the blood tests show no alcohol or drugs in her system we'll move forward with a federal law suit... violation of civil rights (she's disabled from a bad auto accident and still walks on double French crutches. He wanted her to do the drunk walk without her crutches... she refused), and detaining/searching without probably cause."

Navy's advice worked very well in this case. That cop had her scared when we arrived at the scene. Although I generally wouldn't care about being asked for ID. This LEO was way out of bounds... it was worth fighting. BTW, I was providing his department a range to work their drills free of charge. I rescinded the range-use offer the very next day. Told the Chief exactly why.

 

[SouthernBoy]

After careful thought I took your advice on this some time ago. Passed it on to my wife. Sure enough she became the victim of an overzealous LEO in September 2011 who wanted to search her car. She parked crooked far away from the store, but within a single parking spot. He tried to claim probable cause saying he thought she was drunk. My wife hasn't drank since our college days. He said she took too long to exit the car. He said she was evasive when questioned.

She held fast to the advice. She refused to answer his questions. She refused to consent to search. She asked if she was being detained and he replied "yes." Our best friend (attorney) and I went to the parking lot and our friend pulled the LEO aside. A few minutes later he apologized to her and left. Took the parking ticket with him too. When I asked ny friend what he said to the LEO he replied, "I told him to arrest her for DUI. When the blood tests show no alcohol or drugs in her system we'll move forward with a federal law suit... violation of civil rights (she's disabled from a bad auto accident and still walks on double French crutches. He wanted her to do the drunk walk without her crutches... she refused), and detaining/searching without probably cause."

Navy's advice worked very well in this case. That cop had her scared when we arrived at the scene. Although I generally wouldn't care about being asked for ID. This LEO was way out of bounds... it was worth fighting. BTW, I was providing his department a range to work their drills free of charge. I rescinded the range-use offer the very next day. Told the Chief exactly why.

Good for you !!!

And well done for your wife. There is absolutely no excuse for this sort of behavior from our employees.

 

[Rocketgeezer]

My wife and I go to the indoor range every couple of weeks, usualy sat morning, then go to IHOP afterward, we keep our guns on us, she generaly has her G-26 and Taurus 380, i would have one of our 1911s, G-31, and XD-9, under our shirts, they are concealed, but just, never/ever had we any kind of issue there, LEOS are in and out the whole time one of the managers even shoots at the same indoor range, I even gave one of the girls a half a box of 9mm ammo for a tip, her and her husband both shoot, I have been stopped while in the car and on the motorcycle, only time the gun was mentioned i when first stopped they asked where's your handgun I most likely said in its holster, making no move for it whatsoever, they said fine don't touch it, then I ether got a warning or a ticket and was on my way

 

[NavyLCDR]

When I asked ny friend what he said to the LEO he replied, "I told him to arrest her for DUI. When the blood tests show no alcohol or drugs in her system we'll move forward with a federal law suit... violation of civil rights (she's disabled from a bad auto accident and still walks on double French crutches. He wanted her to do the drunk walk without her crutches... she refused), and detaining/searching without probably cause."

During my one unlawful detainment for open carrying that is exactly how I got it to end as well. I called the officer's bluff and told him to just write me the citation for the law he thought I was breaking, and with or without the citation I was going back into the restaurant and finish my dinner. He said, "Fine, go back inside."

 

[SouthernBoy]

In the 17 years that I have been carrying on a regular basis, with the last nearly five years almost all openly, I have never had a negative encounter with an LEO. I have walked up to them while they were in their patrol cars, standing on sidewalks, in stores, and even in police precincts. Not once have I experienced any of the stuff some of the members here seem sure will happen when they see a MWAG out in the general public.

 

[tommy62]

Get a CCW badge and show that off too.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Is this the new G50AE? Can't wait!

 

[jabatam]

You might want to read up a bit. Indiana IS an OC state, but you are still required to have a permit regardless of how you carry. If your license is from out of state, you're required to abide by the laws of the state that issued

 

[Firefighterchen]

You might want to read up a bit. Indiana IS an OC state, but you are still required to have a permit regardless of how you carry. If your license is from out of state, you're required to abide by the laws of the state that issued

Who are you addressing?

 

[jabatam]

You might want to read up a bit. Indiana IS an OC state, but you are still required to have a permit regardless of how you carry. If your license is from out of state, you're required to abide by the laws of the state that issued

Who are you addressing?

Mea culpa...addressing OP

 

[Firefighterchen]

You might want to read up a bit. Indiana IS an OC state, but you are still required to have a permit regardless of how you carry. If your license is from out of state, you're required to abide by the laws of the state that issued

Who are you addressing?

Mea culpa...addressing OP

Est denique....I don't see where he states he doesn't need a license to carry, OC or CC....just that he doesn't need to give it on demand.

 

[jabatam]

You might want to read up a bit. Indiana IS an OC state, but you are still required to have a permit regardless of how you carry. If your license is from out of state, you're required to abide by the laws of the state that issued

Who are you addressing?

Mea culpa...addressing OP

Est denique....I don't see where he states he doesn't need a license to carry, OC or CC....just that he doesn't need to give it on demand.

Ok I posted that after being up all night so I must have missed that fine distinction but, seriously, you guys are splitting hairs here. Indiana requires an LTC, so go ahead and tell an LEO that you don't have to show it to him if you decide to OC and see what happens

 

[SouthernBoy]

Get a CCW badge and show that off too.

I wouldn't be caught dead with one of these things. I'm not a show off. My interactions with police have all been incidental, even when deliberate on my part, such as seeking information. I never go out of my way to goad police or seek them out just to get a rise from them. Frankly I think that is not only childish, but it works against us, unless there is a valid and specific reason.

 

[BravoSierra2012]

Get a CCW badge and show that off too.

I wouldn't be caught dead with one of these things. I'm not a show off. My interactions with police have all been incidental, even when deliberate on my part, such as seeking information. I never go out of my way to goad police or seek them out just to get a rise from them. Frankly I think that is not only childish, but it works against us, unless there is a valid and specific reason.

I don't have a cc badge but I do have an ep badge. We wear them just in case shtf and Leo has a split second decision of who to trust. Always under the suit jacket along with everything else until needed though