A missed educational possibility. You might consider carrying copies of the state statute that demonstrates you do not need a permit for open carry and present it RESPECTFULLY to the LEO that would approach in regard to you OC. You may be surprised at how many LEO's do not know the statutes of the states and counties they serve. You would be doing the next OCer a big favor.
Just stoped for open carry in ihop
- Thread starter Llamaminimax
- Start date
A missed educational possibility. You might consider carrying copies of the state statute that demonstrates you do not need a permit for open carry and present it RESPECTFULLY to the LEO that would approach in regard to you OC. You may be surprised at how many LEO's do not know the statutes of the states and counties they serve. You would be doing the next OCer a big favor.
Too bad in Indiana that state law DOES require a permit to open carry! The statute is quoted in post #36.
Treo
Bullet Proof
If a permit is required to carry then we need to know what the permit statute(that I can't find)say.
As an example, in Colorado IAW CRS 18-12-204 I must carry my permit w/ a valid ID and surrender both on demand. So, If I were open carrying and a cop asked for my permit I think I'd have to show it.
I can't find anything in Indiana statutes that requires the person to carry the license on their person or to display a license to a police officer on demand. The statute only says the person carrying the gun must be licensed. That would lead me to believe their is even less justification for an officer to demand to see a license if they see a gun because there appears to be no statute requiring the person to carry the license.
SouthernBoy
New member
Not true. Possibly could fall under RAS only if the state requires a permit to carry open or concealed, but even then, that's pushing it.
longslide10
New member
First of all I doubt a convicted felon will be OC'ing in an IHop and many LEO's love to throw their weight around just because.
SouthernBoy
New member
And the arrest would be illegal, making the department, the good citizens of the locale, and the arresting officer(s) liable.
Instead of asking, "Am I being detained?" one should ask, "Why am I being detained?". If an answer is not forth coming, you could ask "Am I free to go [or leave]?". If still no answer, leave.
Some of you folks need to get a handle on your employees (read that as public servants) and keep them in their place. I'm not saying or suggesting that one will never leave without being physically accosted by a rouge cop and if that happens, nail their butts to the wall. Otherwise, they quickly learn to believe that it is THEY who are the law and not us. Control them, lest they control you.
If you live in a state where there is no permit required to carry openly and an officer asks to see an ID, it is no different that if you were just taking a walk and an officer asked for your ID. The gun makes no difference since it is perfectly legal to carry it out in the open. You do not have to show and ID. And you do not have to show a concealed carry permit when carrying openly. If he IS detaining you because there is a BOLO out and you fit the description, that is an entirely different situation. You will have to show an ID, but still not a CCW.
The open carrying of a firearm, when a legal action, is not grounds for being stopped in and of itself. They must have an articulable reason for stopping you that is within the law.
SouthernBoy
New member
And if your actions are within the law, the police are going to be in hot water for doing this... and that is how it should be. I live in Virginia and on the morning of December 23rd, I was in a crowded upscale grocery store looking for a few items. That store is patronized by a fair amount of out-of-staters and most likely transplants to our state from places north. The county police received a MWAG call and it was me. The responding officer was clearly and obviously embarrassed when he approached me at a register in the wine section (only him, myself, and the cashier were present). He asked me three questions, never asked for any sort of ID, then conversation quickly turned to wine and other things. It was so obvious to me that the last thing he wanted to do was to even interrupt me.
So much for being carted off to jail, eh? But then again, this IS Virginia.
SouthernBoy
New member
Not true. Read U.S.Code 18,921 and 18,922, specifically the latter.
SouthernBoy
New member
We can do this in my state as long as there is no suspect holding area or jail in the facility. I been present at meetings in a county police precinct with as many as nearly 100 openly armed citizens. No problem and no questions asked.
SouthernBoy
New member
Boy are you right with this. I can't count how many times I have heard people say and have read people write that very thing. "If you have nothing to hide [or have done nothing wrong], then what is there to worry about?". What there IS to worry about is the camel's nose under the tent inching further in until he and his entire family are squeezing out the owner. This is how rights are lost.
A police officer can most certainly ask for an ID. But that doesn't mean you have to show it. Don't give them incentive to go on a fishing expedition. "You don't mind if I look in your car, do you?".
Suggested reading for our friends from states where this sort of police behavior seems to be acceptable to them. "You & The Police" by Boston T. Party. Read it and refer to it.
Firearms carry laws are generally written in one of two ways (if carry is regulated). The majority of laws are written such that it is only illegal to carry the gun (OC or CC does not matter) without the proper license. In this case, the mere sight of the firearm provides no RAS or probable cause that any statute is being violated, unless the officer has specific knowledge that the person does not have the required license.
Some states' laws are written such that carrying the firearm is an illegal act and the permit provides an exception to the prohibition. In these states the mere sight of the firearm does provide RAS for a detainment long enough for the officer to determine that the person falls under an exception.
SouthernBoy
New member
Good clarification, Navy. I should have added "where such is legal" or some facsimile thereof.
When I read posts such as some of the ones on this thread where the writers have made comments to the affect that if an LEO saw you OC'ing or received a MWAG call, you could expect to possibly be arrested and taken to jail, or made to eat dirt or similar atrocities to your person, I make it a point to see where they're from. And more often than not, they tend to reside in states with strict gun laws and next to impossible carry laws. This tells me that these folks have been brought up believing police abuse is to be expected when they try to exercise their rights... such as being expected to show an ID. In the more lenient states, I tend not to see so much of this.
Rather interesting I would say.
I could not agree more!
Indiana, BTW, is a state where it is only illegal to carry a gun without the license, thus the mere sight of a gun does not provide RAS or probable cause that the law is being broken.
There won't be changing anyone's mind on this matter, but think of it this way. If you are swerving all over the road while driving you will get pulled over and probably asked "have you been drinking", if you are walking around the mall in "tactical" clothing and keep looking over your shoulder, you may get stopped and asked "sir may I help you", if you are sitting in a park with no children of your own in very close proximity to children and look strange, you may be approached and asked sir, "how are you today, are you meeting someone here?"
The point of all these situations is, you are doing something out of the ordinary. When you do something out of the ordinary, that is probable cause to investigate. If you see someone walking down your street and you are pretty dang sure they don't live in the neighborhood, you may go to investigate.
Like it or not, open carrying or even concealing a firearm, is not ordinary by most people's standards. Out side of a gun store or range, I've only seen 2-5 people open carry, oddly one was in IN a LONG time ago and while it caught my eye and I asked someone about it, I wasn't uncomfortable, I thought it was cool, but then again I grew up with guns.
So if the officer's attitude was actually as depicted by the OP (I'm not doubting it was), then he acted in an unprofessional manner. Perhaps he's always an ass, perhaps he was having a really bad day and took it out on the OP....But if you engage in any behavior that is not the norm, expect attention. How you deal with it is far more important than why you are being asked. I'm not suggesting that you bow to the "man" but if you react in a professional manner, perhaps that will rub off on the officer and the next time he has a similar encounter he will react differently as well. Most cops are not power hungry asses...there are some but most are not.
The logic from, can I see you permit, to papers please doesn't add up. What if I were walking down the street smoking a joint, how do the cops know that I'm not licensed to smoke it for medical reasons, they don't, that's why I'd be asked....I actually don't smoke weed for either reason so I'm not worried about that one.
Navy, in MN we have very good guns laws (that means carry and open friendly) police abuse here is what I would consider well below the "average." So my opinion with regards to my words posted here are not out of becoming accustom to being abused, but in fact quite the opposite. In general I've had very positive interactions with law enforcement throughout my life. Sure there are have been some encounters where the officer was less than polite, but most of the time very professional. My favorite (or not so favorite), was I got pulled over in IA for speeding, I rolled down my daughters window as well, she had to see the cop, and he eventually gave me a ticket for speeding but threw in some stickers for my daughter. She asked "daddy what should I put them on?" My reply, somewhere you won't lose them, those stickers cost about $50.00 each LMAO....
The point of all these situations is, you are doing something out of the ordinary. When you do something out of the ordinary, that is probable cause to investigate. If you see someone walking down your street and you are pretty dang sure they don't live in the neighborhood, you may go to investigate.
Like it or not, open carrying or even concealing a firearm, is not ordinary by most people's standards. Out side of a gun store or range, I've only seen 2-5 people open carry, oddly one was in IN a LONG time ago and while it caught my eye and I asked someone about it, I wasn't uncomfortable, I thought it was cool, but then again I grew up with guns.
So if the officer's attitude was actually as depicted by the OP (I'm not doubting it was), then he acted in an unprofessional manner. Perhaps he's always an ass, perhaps he was having a really bad day and took it out on the OP....But if you engage in any behavior that is not the norm, expect attention. How you deal with it is far more important than why you are being asked. I'm not suggesting that you bow to the "man" but if you react in a professional manner, perhaps that will rub off on the officer and the next time he has a similar encounter he will react differently as well. Most cops are not power hungry asses...there are some but most are not.
The logic from, can I see you permit, to papers please doesn't add up. What if I were walking down the street smoking a joint, how do the cops know that I'm not licensed to smoke it for medical reasons, they don't, that's why I'd be asked....I actually don't smoke weed for either reason so I'm not worried about that one.
Navy, in MN we have very good guns laws (that means carry and open friendly) police abuse here is what I would consider well below the "average." So my opinion with regards to my words posted here are not out of becoming accustom to being abused, but in fact quite the opposite. In general I've had very positive interactions with law enforcement throughout my life. Sure there are have been some encounters where the officer was less than polite, but most of the time very professional. My favorite (or not so favorite), was I got pulled over in IA for speeding, I rolled down my daughters window as well, she had to see the cop, and he eventually gave me a ticket for speeding but threw in some stickers for my daughter. She asked "daddy what should I put them on?" My reply, somewhere you won't lose them, those stickers cost about $50.00 each LMAO....
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
This falls under the latter portion of navy's view on the two ways laws are written. Smoking weed is illegal unless you are an exception (and is completely illegal federally). So while some states a joint and a firearm are illegal to carry unless there is an exception, most states are not that way.
Comparing something that is illegal with something that is legal, and saying they have reason to question both, is wrong. Comparing a drunk driver to an open carry is far fetched as well. Swerving in your vehicle is on par with waving your gun around, but is in no way the same as carrying a holstered firearm in your everyday life. If you are waving your firearm around in public, or swerving in your car, then yes they would have a reason to confront you, Compare two legal aspects of life, such as driving a vehicle properly and carrying a firearm properly. If you are driving and not doing anything against the law, the police have no RAS to stop you. If you are carrying and not doing anything against the law, the police have no RAS to stop you.
BravoSierra2012
New member
Not trying to argue with you here, where I live if you do not cross the yellow or the white line you are not supposed to be pulled over. I've heard of cases from my LE friends of officers giving dui's and the offender getting away clean because there was no cause for the stop when the tape was played back. Just saying that we as well as officers should know the law to protect us both
SouthernBoy
New member
Yes sir. What so many folks on these websites fail to understand or see is that different states are populated by people with different ideas about all manner of things. And this colors the eyes of these people who post on websites such as this because they view the idea of carrying openly through their own opinions, ideas, and experiences in their states rather than taking into consideration how it might be in a "friendly" state. Just look at posts made by our friend here from New York.
For example, suppose New Jersey somehow managed to pass a law removing any impediments to openly carrying a loaded sidearm on one's person in public. While the law might now exist permitting this, I would bet a month's pay that most of the folks in New Jersey would be doing the wide-eyed dance. We don't see anything like this in Virginia.
Openly carrying a sidearm is no cause for concern. In the entire time I have been carrying a sidearm on a regular basis, since 1995, I have never had a negative encounter with an LEO and only one with a citizen who claimed he was a retired LEO. And judging from his accent he was from someplace up north.
B
Bikenut
Guest
The logic is quite simple... when people come to believe that they MUST provide proof they are engaged in a legal activity then they will have swallowed the idea that ... instead of LE being required to have a legal reason to suspect them they must provide proof to LE there is no reason to be suspected.
And that is how folks are indoctrinated into believing they MUST "show their papers" and prove they are innocent instead of the onus being on LE proving, or having legitimate legal reason to suspect, someone is guilty.
And... a carry permit IS ... "your papers". Think about that for a while.
1. An investigation does not have to involve a detainment. Officer shows up, sees nothing constituting RAS of a crime, signs it off and leaves.
2. I am glad that in Washington State, the WA State Supreme Court has ruled that "something out of the ordinary" does NOT rise to the level of probable cause or reasonable suspicion, even when that "something out of the ordinary" is a person carrying a firearm:
State v. Casaad:
Link Removed
BTW, Casaad was a convicted felon carrying two rifles in his arms down a public street on a Saturday on his way to sell them when he was UNLAWFULLY stopped and UNLAWFULLY detained. In this case, the criminal actions of the police outweighed the criminal actions of the subject because Casaad's actions of carrying rifles in his arms in public did not rise to the level of reasonable suspicion that a crime was about to be committed, in Washington state, YMMV.
