I've never gotten hate-mail, so here's my chance.

[Unfettered Might]

If you truly take 2A with a literal meaning then you would not exclude nukes and bios. With that statement you have agreed that 2A does in fact have limit and there is a line over which one should not cross. The discussion then becomes where that line is drawn. Some have a line much more restrictive than you and some less. However it does appear that you are in agreement that a limit on arms is possible under 2A.

God this is such an asinine argument. Look....I don't do the "well if your willing to set limitations, then it's just about where the limitations are set" argument, because i am not setting the limitations, that was done over 200 years ago.

The founders wanted us to have the power to SAVE ourselves from a tyranny, so obviously something that killed more people than it would save WAS NOT WHAT THEY HAD IN MIND!

Ya know, the weapons to perform a conventional war......ground, air and sea....troop armaments....etc

Get it now?

 

[twogunwilly]

Actually that was one judge's dissenting opinion was it not?

Not. Justice Scalia is one of the five sane justices.

 

[NavyLCDR]

But I think threatening the overthrow of our government because you don't like the current status of a SCOTUS ruling is treason.

So, certainly, you will be able to point out in this thread where someone threatened the overthrow of our government?

Actually the treason lies in any government official who chooses to ignore the Constitution or the written works that already existed before and during the founders' time to define the ideologies that were present in our founders minds.

ABSOLUTELY!

Now here are some interesting words written by treasonists:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

 

[Unfettered Might]

Not. Justice Scalia is one of the five sane justices.

I stand corrected, but my feelings about his inaccurate opinion stand as well.

At least he himself even admitted, that this was not an exhaustive and final decision on the 2A. What does he mean by "confrontation"? If he is referring to the whole "tyranny" thing, then he is so off his rocker he should be removed from the position.

I implore anyone to find historical evidence contrary to what I say the intentions of the 2A are, because LT just posted one that supports it.....

 

[gvaldeg1]

Way Back When

Way back when I was a kid in Utah (about 60 years ago); it didn't even seem to have occurred to anyone that we should need a permit for open or concealed carry. I used to go into any local hardware store and buy all the ammo that I wanted for my 22 rifles so that I could go rabbit hunting. (And yes, we did eat them.) However, my uncle brought back a 1908 Luger and a Model 1913 J.P. Sauer & Sohn 7.65 mm Browning (32 ACP) pocket pistol from World War II. He let me borrow them anytime I wanted and I'd go to any of the hardware stores that carried 9 mm Luger (Parabellum) or 32 ACP and by ammo without a problem. Sometimes they'd ask "what are you going to do with this kid?" and I'd tell them "a little plinking at cans" which was true since neither was a good hunting weapon but they were fun to shoot.

Anyway...in spite of what would be considered permissiveness or laxity in weapons laws and practices the crime rate in Salt Lake City was very low (I know because I'd hear my parents and relatives talking about it.) There certainly was no blood running in the streets which some liberals think goes hand in hand with non-restrictive gun laws. Also, nobody seemed to give a second thought of a 14-year old walking around with a gun strapped to his hip.

Of course that was then...and this is now. It was back in the days when "AXE" referred to an implement for chopping wood. I liked it better back then. :smile:

 

[FN1910]

God this is such an asinine argument. Look....I don't do the "well if your willing to set limitations, then it's just about where the limitations are set" argument, because i am not setting the limitations, that was done over 200 years ago.

The founders wanted us to have the power to SAVE ourselves from a tyranny, so obviously something that killed more people than it would save WAS NOT WHAT THEY HAD IN MIND!

Ya know, the weapons to perform a conventional war......ground, air and sea....troop armaments....etc

Get it now?

ROTFLMAO at the absurdity of this explanation. How about mustard gas and hollow point bullets since neither are allowed in conventional war. And air.... I don't think the founding fathers used any airplanes.

 

[nogods]

Way back when I was a kid in Utah (about 60 years ago); it didn't even seem to have occurred to anyone that we should need a permit for open or concealed carry. I used to go into any local hardware store and buy all the ammo that I wanted for my 22 rifles so that I could go rabbit hunting. (And yes, we did eat them.) However, my uncle brought back a 1908 Luger and a Model 1913 J.P. Sauer & Sohn 7.65 mm Browning (32 ACP) pocket pistol from World War II. He let me borrow them anytime I wanted and I'd go to any of the hardware stores that carried 9 mm Luger (Parabellum) or 32 ACP and by ammo without a problem. Sometimes they'd ask "what are you going to do with this kid?" and I'd tell them "a little plinking at cans" which was true since neither was a good hunting weapon but they were fun to shoot.

Anyway...in spite of what would be considered permissiveness or laxity in weapons laws and practices the crime rate in Salt Lake City was very low (I know because I'd hear my parents and relatives talking about it.) There certainly was no blood running in the streets which some liberals think goes hand in hand with non-restrictive gun laws. Also, nobody seemed to give a second thought of a 14-year old walking around with a gun strapped to his hip.

Of course that was then...and this is now. It was back in the days when "AXE" referred to an implement for chopping wood. I liked it better back then. :smile:

Did you live near Mountain Meadows?

 

[Unfettered Might]

ROTFLMAO at the absurdity of this explanation. How about mustard gas and hollow point bullets since neither are allowed in conventional war. And air.... I don't think the founding fathers used any airplanes.

ROTFLMAO at the absurdity of your comprehension.

There's three kinds of warfare.

Conventional
Biological/Chemical
Nuclear

The weapons of conventional warfare will always be the weapons of conventional warfare.

I'm not talking about limitations by the Geneva convention, seeing as they were not involved in the Constitutional Congress and obviously I've made it clear I wasn't talking about chemical, biological or nuclear warfare.

 

[NavyLCDR]

ROTFLMAO at the absurdity of this explanation. How about mustard gas and hollow point bullets since neither are allowed in conventional war. And air.... I don't think the founding fathers used any airplanes.

The founding fathers used the same weapons that the government that they were overthrowing had. The battlefield was equal as far as weaponry. Would that be the same situation today?

 

[S&WM&P40]

Did you live near Mountain Meadows?

What does that have to do with this topic? Are you trying to make a reference to the "Mountain Meadows massacre" that took place September 11, 1857? 120 men, women, and children killed by the Utah Territorial Militia and local Indians.

Does this go back to your claims that we need more gun laws? Becasue things like this are bound to happen again? If more laws are not added to the books to regulate firearm ownership?

What's your feelings on the massacre at "Wounded Knee?" 150+ men, women, and children of the Lakota Sioux shot dead in COLD blood by federal troops (AKA, our own government).

Should we not also place regulations on government use and ownership of firearms as well? Or do you feel they are above such laws becasue they are "the government" and can do no wrong.

Feelings on the "post Katrina" killings on the part of the New Orleans police department (10+ shot, 4 dead)?

Yet again an example of members of government sworn to uphold the law and PROTECT us. Breaking those very laws and murdering citizens in cold blood and trying to cover it up.

Your views of wishing to restrict ownership of firearms by private citizens out of fear "We can handle it." While the same people who hold the power have shown they are not above "going on shooting sprees".

Restict across the board or it's not worth talking about.

 

[Itstjs]

Ya know, in some ways I can see where youre comming from. But then again, its called Natural Seletion. Sometimes you have to weed out the idoits, survival of the fittest. In many ways, schools have brought the shootings on themselves [sad to say] keeping it a "Pistol Free Zone" might as well have painted a target on themselves and said "come on, were all unarmed"
Its time to let Law Abiding citizens, BE law abiding citizens. Whats the point in issuing a CPL, CCW, CWP or what ever your state calls it, if they cant trust the people you allow to carry, to carry free of restriction? Makes no sense to me.

I dont blame you for thinking in some of the ways you do, but again, it comes to freedom of expression, if someone wants to walk around with a Ruger 10/.22 let them, if the state allows it. If someone wants that kind of attetion, let them get it.

 

[B2Tall]

I return from vacation and find the lunatics have taken over the asylum. At least this wing of it. Too many posts to respond to each one individually so I'll leave this thread with a few thoughts:

The Constitution was not written by God. It was written by men....men who had faults and shortcomings and who definitely didn't have a crystal ball. The document doesn't cover everything and it never will considering our ever-evolving society. 74 years....that's how long it took for an amendment to be added to the Constitution that abolished slavery yet we didn't need a piece of paper to know that slavery was wrong on so many levels. The great majority of people knew it was wrong long before the 13th amendment was put to paper. 129 years for women to have the right to vote? Again, most people knew that prohibiting women from voting was wrong long before the 19th amendment. We don't need to see something in writing just to know it's wrong. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say "Leave your common sense at the door". Kids with guns at school.....your next door neighbor with WMDs......violent criminals legally allowed to carry.....that's just blithering idiocy at it's highest level and I don't need the Constitution to tell me that.

Nobody's ability to defend themselves and their family is realistically compromised by not being allowed to have fully-functional military weapons like tanks, rocket launchers, nukes, etc.

If you're not happy with state or federal firearm laws then lead a political campaign for change and stop the silly "I'm gonna overthrow the government" keyboard saber-rattling. You're not gonna do squat except sit behind your computer and whine.

Some of you little dictators need to have a little more respect for this country's system of laws and the due process by which those laws come into being. Gun laws in NY, Illinois, Hawaii, NJ, etc??? Apparently that's the way the majority of the people in those states/cities like it, otherwise they'd have done something about it like electing pro-gun politicians. Don't like it?? Don't go to those places. You and I may not approve of those laws but at least I respect the process. I live in Florida and I've made my support for OC known to the relevant law makers.

Gun restrictions = racism?? How desperate and weak....throwing the race card. This ain't 1837. What next....gun laws pollute our fresh water supply?? Gun laws kill dolphins?? And some of you suddenly "socially conscious" sloganeers conveniently forget that many of the men who wrote the Constitution were slaveholders, and lets not forget those of you who'd like to see felons executed. That's a curious point of view for a supposedly racially-sensitive person when you consider the racial makeup of our prison system. Can't get more two-faced than that.

Everybody's entitled to their opinion. I'm thankful that not everybody is entitled to turn their opinions into reality.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Too many posts to respond to each one individually so I'll leave this thread with a few thoughts.

Promise? Cross your heart and hope to die, stick a needle in your eye? :big_boss:

Some of you little dictators need to have a little more respect for this country's system of laws and the due process by which those laws come into being. Gun laws in NY, Illinois, Hawaii, NJ, etc??? Apparently that's the way the majority of the people in those states/cities like it, otherwise they'd have done something about it like electing pro-gun politicians.

May I simply point to Obama's Health Care "Reform" to show the flaw in that argument? Politicians pass laws against the wishes of the majority of the people all the time.

BTW, If you don't like the way the 2nd Amendment reads...the answer is to amend the Constitution, not to legislate it away.

 

[Deanimator]

I return from vacation and find the lunatics have taken over the asylum. At least this wing of it. Too many posts to respond to each one individually so I'll leave this thread with a few thoughts:

Ad hominems are a sign of a weak or nonexistent argument.

Nobody's ability to defend themselves and their family is realistically compromised by not being allowed to have fully-functional military weapons like tanks, rocket launchers, nukes, etc.

VPC feels the same way about handguns.

iGun restrictions = racism?? How desperate and weak....throwing the race card.

History doesn't go away because it makes you feel bad.

The history of gun control in North America is the history of White supremacism. All of the hand waving and sophistry in the world won't change that.

 

[S&WM&P40]

I return from vacation and find the lunatics have taken over the asylum. At least this wing of it. Too many posts to respond to each one individually so I'll leave this thread with a few thoughts:

The Constitution was not written by God. It was written by men....men who had faults and shortcomings and who definitely didn't have a crystal ball. The document doesn't cover everything and it never will considering our ever-evolving society. 74 years....that's how long it took for an amendment to be added to the Constitution that abolished slavery yet we didn't need a piece of paper to know that slavery was wrong on so many levels. The great majority of people knew it was wrong long before the 13th amendment was put to paper. 129 years for women to have the right to vote? Again, most people knew that prohibiting women from voting was wrong long before the 19th amendment. We don't need to see something in writing just to know it's wrong. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say "Leave your common sense at the door". Kids with guns at school.....your next door neighbor with WMDs......violent criminals legally allowed to carry.....that's just blithering idiocy at it's highest level and I don't need the Constitution to tell me that.

Nobody's ability to defend themselves and their family is realistically compromised by not being allowed to have fully-functional military weapons like tanks, rocket launchers, nukes, etc.

If you're not happy with state or federal firearm laws then lead a political campaign for change and

stop the silly "I'm gonna overthrow the government" keyboard saber-rattling.

You're not gonna do squat except sit behind your computer and whine.

Some of you little dictators need to have a little more respect for this country's system of laws and the due process by which those laws come into being. Gun laws in NY, Illinois, Hawaii, NJ, etc??? Apparently that's the way the majority of the people in those states/cities like it, otherwise they'd have done something about it like electing pro-gun politicians. Don't like it?? Don't go to those places. You and I may not approve of those laws but at least I respect the process. I live in Florida and I've made my support for OC known to the relevant law makers.

Gun restrictions = racism??

How desperate and weak....throwing the race card. This ain't 1837. What next....gun laws pollute our fresh water supply?? Gun laws kill dolphins?? And some of you suddenly "socially conscious" sloganeers conveniently forget that many of the men who wrote the Constitution were slaveholders, and lets not forget those of you who'd like to see felons executed. That's a curious point of view for a supposedly racially-sensitive person when you consider the racial makeup of our prison system. Can't get more two-faced than that.

Everybody's entitled to their opinion. I'm thankful that not everybody is entitled to turn their opinions into reality.

Wow, yet another person with megical powers to pull nonexistent posts from the thin air and claim they have been said. Where can I get some of those powers??? Again I will say POINT TO ONE POST that a member "THEM SELFS" stated they intend to over throw the government??? Cant find it can you? Kinda hard to find things that aren't there isn't there ah! The only thing members have done is QUOTED the words of our founding fathers,nothing more nothing less!

You get all this racism from where? People pointed out that the first gun control laws on the books were in fact put in place to keep colored slaves from owning firearms.

 

[S&WM&P40]

I return from vacation and find the lunatics have taken over the asylum. At least this wing of it. Too many posts to respond to each one individually so I'll leave this thread with a few thoughts:

The Constitution was not written by God. It was written by men....men who had faults and shortcomings and who definitely didn't have a crystal ball. The document doesn't cover everything and it never will considering our ever-evolving society. 74 years....that's how long it took for an amendment to be added to the Constitution that abolished slavery yet we didn't need a piece of paper to know that slavery was wrong on so many levels. The great majority of people knew it was wrong long before the 13th amendment was put to paper. 129 years for women to have the right to vote? Again, most people knew that prohibiting women from voting was wrong long before the 19th amendment. We don't need to see something in writing just to know it's wrong. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say "Leave your common sense at the door". Kids with guns at school.....your next door neighbor with WMDs......violent criminals legally allowed to carry.....that's just blithering idiocy at it's highest level and I don't need the Constitution to tell me that.

Nobody's ability to defend themselves and their family is realistically compromised by not being allowed to have fully-functional military weapons like tanks, rocket launchers, nukes, etc.

If you're not happy with state or federal firearm laws then lead a political campaign for change and stop the silly "I'm gonna overthrow the government" keyboard saber-rattling. You're not gonna do squat except sit behind your computer and whine.

Some of you little dictators need to have a little more respect for this country's system of laws and the due process by which those laws come into being. Gun laws in NY, Illinois, Hawaii, NJ, etc??? Apparently that's the way the majority of the people in those states/cities like it, otherwise they'd have done something about it like electing pro-gun politicians. Don't like it?? Don't go to those places. You and I may not approve of those laws but at least I respect the process. I live in Florida and I've made my support for OC known to the relevant law makers.

Gun restrictions = racism?? How desperate and weak....throwing the race card. This ain't 1837. What next....gun laws pollute our fresh water supply?? Gun laws kill dolphins?? And some of you suddenly "socially conscious" sloganeers conveniently forget that many of the men who wrote the Constitution were slaveholders, and lets not forget those of you who'd like to see felons executed. That's a curious point of view for a supposedly racially-sensitive person when you consider the racial makeup of our prison system. Can't get more two-faced than that.

Everybody's entitled to their opinion.

I'm thankful that not everybody is entitled to turn their opinions into reality.[/

QUOTE]

But just that is happening now with the largest lose for the Dems in years. More and more Pro Freedom laws and being passed around the country.

 

[NavyLCDR]

^^^^^ Need to edit your quote tags!

 

[Kasper]

Nobody's ability to defend themselves and their family is realistically compromised by not being allowed to have fully-functional military weapons like tanks, rocket launchers, nukes, etc.

If you're not happy with state or federal firearm laws then lead a political campaign for change and stop the silly "I'm gonna overthrow the government" keyboard saber-rattling. You're not gonna do squat except sit behind your computer and whine.

Some of you little dictators need to have a little more respect for this country's system of laws and the due process by which those laws come into being.

I am sure as hell glad that our founding fathers didn't think like you or we would still be under British Law.

You are forgetting that they had to over throw the British government and break British laws to win our freedom. And they had the same weapons as the British government and that is what helped them win.

Now to put an end to your use of nuclear weapons by citizens That will not happen due to our government would never be willing to use one against it's own citizens due to the after effects caused by the use of one.

The same goes for the other countries that have them and know of the effects of using it. As for the religious terrorist they would use it thinking that their god will save them. as for the rest of us that are sane we only have them to keep the other countries in check. that is why America and Russia started to destroy most of them but leave some for the we still have some so don't get any ideas.

As for the Biological/Chemical weapons our government has I say that the citizens should have them too. The now can make a Biological/Chemical weapon that only infects certain target that the want to destroy or incapacitate.

Riot control agents are less-lethal lachrymatory agents used for riot control. Most commonly used riot control agents are pepper spray and various kinds of tear gas. These chemicals disperse a crowd that could be protesting or rioting, or to clear a building. They can rapidly produce sensory irritation or disabling physical effects which usually disappear within 15 minutes (for tear gas) and up to 2 hours (for pepper spray) following termination of exposure. They can also be used for chemical warfare defense training, although their use in warfare itself is a violation of Article I.5 of the Chemical Weapons Convention. Article II.9 of the CWC specifically authorizes their use for civilian law enforcement [1].

Low frequency sound cannons are weapons of various types that use sound to injure or incapacitate subjects using a focused beam of sound or ultrasound. Active denial systems (ADS) are a non-lethal, directed-energy weapon developed by the U.S. military. The ADS directs electromagnetic radiation, specifically, high-frequency microwave radiation, at a frequency of 95 GHz, which causes the water in the upper epidermis to boil, stimulating a "burning" sensation in the nerve endings and generating intense pain. Dazzler lasers are directed-energy weapons that use intense light to cause temporary blindness or disorientation of rioters.

Biological warfare can also specifically target plants to destroy crops or defoliate vegetation. The United States and Britain discovered plant growth regulators (i.e., herbicides) during the Second World War, and initiated an herbicidal warfare program that was eventually used in Malaya and Vietnam in counter insurgency. Though herbicides are chemicals, they are often grouped with biological warfare as bioregulators in a similar manner as biotoxins.[citation needed] Scorched earth tactics or destroying livestock and farmland were carried out in the Vietnam war (cf. Agent Orange)[7] and Eelam War in Sri Lanka.[citation needed]

Now given the leaps and bounds made in science in the last 20 years you can bet your ass that they have figured out a way to make a Bio weapon that can incapacitate or kill off all the people occupying the area of land that they want to control.

So this is why us citizens should have the same weapons as the government. As we all will agree a nuclear bomb has effects that are to great to justify its use, That is why the USA only dropped them twice on Japan and after seeing the effect it had no other country has used them . So please stop trying to use a dirty bomb in a suitcase as justification for disarming the citizens of the USA.

 

[Treo]

As compelling as I find this disscussion to be I have to voice some concern over the fact that our OP has not logged back in here once since he posted his magnum opus. Wonder what other fora he may be trolling today (Enquiring minds and all that....)