I've never gotten hate-mail, so here's my chance.

So, tell us nogods what law would you pass to ensure Tucson never happens again?
But is that REALLY the goal?

I recall years ago, Senator Howard Metzenbaum (D-OH) being asked about CRIMINALS and CRIMINAL use of firearms. His reply? Something to the effect of:

"I don't care about the crooks, I just want to get the guns!"

Anti-gunners aren't afraid of criminals with guns.

They're afraid of NON-criminals with guns.

A lot of them have BIG plans that wouldn't be so easy to implement if people had the ability to resist...
 
Everyone has the right to defend them selves.

Yep everyone has that right and it cannot be taken away from them until you put them in a grave. There is a difference between right and ablility and everytime I hear someone say that they have taken away the right of self-defense by taking away their gun it makes me want to puke. Even Charles Manson has the right to defend himself from other inmates just as the the 90 year old little old lady shopping at the grocery strore. The drunk who is finally out of jail after killing three people while DUI has the right to defend himself as well as the father of three who has never been in trouble with the law but is an expert in martial arts and a Navy Seal. The difference between these is the methods that they can use to defend themselves. The right cannot be taken, only the methods that they can use. Does a person lose the right to travel if they lose their drivers license?
 
Does a person lose the right to eat if you only let them eat ball bearings?

Is it possible to so restrict a right that it becomes meaningless?

Yes it is. I mean look at the huge anti gun states(CA,NY,MA,NJ,CT etc..) In Ma you have your door broken down and your dragged off to jail if you have "To much ammo stock piled". Look at what they tried but failed to do in CA with ammo sales. Only being allowed to buy from a ammo dealer on a approved state list, no more internet or mail order ammo. Only being allowed to buy a set amount of ammo at a time. Needing to give your finger print to buy the ammo.
 
Why should public school teachers be paid more then private sector ones? Why should someone be force to join a ******** thug ring (labor union) or have no right to work? Want to talk about insane? It's looking at all of us in the face. This country is going down fast! Unless we take control! Scott Walker is on the front lines of the battle.

Why should they be able to hold their employers (the tax payers) hostage with the threat of a strike. If the employer does not give to their every demand!

All you keep saying is how our point of views are outdated and not with the times. Yet our own government is backing up our point of views. If our point of view is so wrong and (insane and uneducated) as some like to cry. In a effort to discredit our view and make theirs look right. Please tell me why it is that all the educated SANE people in office who run this country, time and time again support our view points? Not only supporting it but taking it a step further and adding. That the second amendment gives people the right to own handguns.

My wife is finishing up a BA in social study's,special education. Why should she have no right to work in the land of the FREE unless she becomes a slave to a union?

To answer your question. Public school teachers have to teach students whose parents don't raise them to behave well. Also I have yet to hear of a private school shooting like the one at Columbine.

The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 03/03/11 - Video Clip Part 1]

- Teachers and Wall Street - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 03/03/11 - Video Clip Part 2| Comedy Central]


As for the Unions they are what made the middle class as the unions decreased in size so has the middle class. If you look at the data it shows exactly what I have typed.

Link Removed
Link Removed

Now far as having to pay the union dues That is the cost of having a higher paying job then those who are not represented by an union.

Even if you have to join a union for the job you don't have to let the union due money go to union, you can instead have it go to a charity.

Yes it sucks that you don't get to keep the cash but without the union representing you the wages you would be earning would be lower.

So I am willing to pay $5 dollars a day to the union if that is what was asked for instead my union was asking for $1.10 a day. That $1.10 was worth it to me to be making $19.50 an hour instead of $11. So a difference of $8.50 an hour times that by 160 hours and you will see why I thought it was worth the price of $1.10 a day.

So all the crap Fox and the Republicans say about unions is ignored by me due to when it comes to paying to bail out the Wall street workers who caused this economic mess and the amount they get paid for letting this happen and the amount they get when fired is more then most of us will ever earn in our life time.

Sorry for going of topic.
 
I'm not sure I see the relevance of labor unions to this discussion.

At least the AHSA talking points being presented had SOMETHING to do with guns and [a hatred of] gun owner rights.
 
Wow, I'm late to the party!

Oh well, looks like a few of the same (IMO) Fuds are still trying and FAILING to argue their ignorant viewpoints........ Also, we have a couple of new members (some from other forums and well versed in freedom) to help keep the TRUTH alive......

I thought of suggesting all of us just put certain mega-trolls (you know who) on ignore , but they will just think that they won and we are running away scared, lol............


Oh well.... life goes on..... at least until it hits the fan.........
 
Wow, I'm late to the party!

Oh well, looks like a few of the same (IMO) Fuds are still trying and FAILING to argue their ignorant viewpoints........ Also, we have a couple of new members (some from other forums and well versed in freedom) to help keep the TRUTH alive......

I thought of suggesting all of us just put certain mega-trolls (you know who) on ignore , but they will just think that they won and we are running away scared, lol............


Oh well.... life goes on..... at least until it hits the fan.........[/QUO

:offtopic::offtopic:
LOL, it still goes on after it hits the fan. But it's a huge mess and the clean up job is huge.
 
Yep everyone has that right and it cannot be taken away from them until you put them in a grave. There is a difference between right and ablility and everytime I hear someone say that they have taken away the right of self-defense by taking away their gun it makes me want to puke. Even Charles Manson has the right to defend himself from other inmates just as the the 90 year old little old lady shopping at the grocery strore. The drunk who is finally out of jail after killing three people while DUI has the right to defend himself as well as the father of three who has never been in trouble with the law but is an expert in martial arts and a Navy Seal. The difference between these is the methods that they can use to defend themselves. The right cannot be taken, only the methods that they can use. Does a person lose the right to travel if they lose their drivers license?

So since we are law abiding, we are better then everyone else. We can use a gun but everyone else has to use sticks and stones.

A gun is a tool nothing else. We do not have the right to say " I can but you can't because you don't deserve this right.

Young man kills his whole family with a hammer, do they take away his right to have a hammer? NO! He can have all the hammers he wants but not a gun.

Guns are not special. If you a going to make laws about guns then you need to make it for all tools.

The reason we have gun laws is because of people that think like you.(Guns are bad and only very special people should have them.)
 
Guns are not special. If you a going to make laws about guns then you need to make it for all tools.
If I had a dime for every saucer eyed loon who not only thought (and indeed SAID) that a firearm could literally CONTROL a person's actions, I'd buy up every last remaining American Eagle Luger in the world with coinage.

You can judge the [lack of] maturity of anti-gunners by their treating of a hunk of steel and plastic like the ray gun in the low budget scifi movie "Laser Blast". They actually seem to think that holding a gun in your hand will literally turn you into a monster. Strangely, they can explain neither how alternatively, this DOESN'T affect LEOs, OR how if it DOES, it's a GOOD thing.
 
So since we are law abiding, we are better then everyone else. We can use a gun but everyone else has to use sticks and stones.

A gun is a tool nothing else. We do not have the right to say " I can but you can't because you don't deserve this right.

Young man kills his whole family with a hammer, do they take away his right to have a hammer? NO! He can have all the hammers he wants but not a gun.

Guns are not special. If you a going to make laws about guns then you need to make it for all tools.

The reason we have gun laws is because of people that think like you.(Guns are bad and only very special people should have them.)

Young man kills his whole family with a hammer because they didn't have a gun? You mean they had to sit there and let him hammer away because one of the family was a felon and his rights to have a gun were taken away. How about if the young man was a felon and coulnd't have a gun and that was why he found an alternate weapon, a hammer. I really dont't understand why someone is no longer allowed to defend themselves because they don't have a gun? Are guns that magical that without one you have to sit a let someone beat you in the head with a hammer? That is the part I do not understand that when your rights to own a gun are taken away you now have to sit while someone kills your family and you.

The 9-11 attacks were caused by men without guns. Yes if someone on the plane had been able to carry his gun on the plane it may have turned out different but those hijackers did not use or need guns. Did everyone else on the plane sit back and cry because they didn't have a gun and were defenseless. No, some fought back but evidently not enough. There have been several other attempts and the other passengers were aboe to prevent it because they didn't sit back and complain about not having a gun. They took action with what was available. They weren't defenseless but may have been less defenseless if they had been carrying a gun. Either way their right to self-defense wasn't taken away, maybe their methods restricted but not taken away.

If your are caught for the fifth time DUI and you license taken away your method of travel is restricted but not your right to travel
If you are charged with certain crimes you are no longer allowed to work in certain places or jobs. Your right to work is not taken away but it is resticted.
your right to eat is restricted that you will be arrested for eating human flesh. Your right to eat is not taken away but it is restricted.
If you commit certain crimes your right to own a gun is taken away. Your right to defend yourself is not taken away but it is restricted.
 
Why should a first grader not be allowed to bring his 22 to school? They did it for decade's with no problems. School shootings did not really become a problem in the USA till the 1960's (1966,University of Texas Massacre.)

Your kidding right? First graders with guns? While were on the subject should they be allowed to smoke, drink & drive? WOW! your bringing crap to a whole new level. You want to know why states bust balls and treat law abiding citizens like untrustable idiots? Because of statements like that. Which will make ALL guns owners look like the idiots they think we are. Stupid statements like that set us back years.
 
Yes it is. I mean look at the huge anti gun states(CA,NY,MA,NJ,CT etc..)

Upstate New York has the highest percentage of conceal carry permit holders in the United States. NYS CC permits are issued for life, there is no renewal fee or renewal filing. NYS CC holders can carry in taverns and restaurants that serve alcohol.
 
So, tell us nogods what law would you pass to ensure Tucson never happens again?

Is that your best rehtorical question you can come up with?

No law "ensures" that crime won't happen. Laws against DWI persuade people not to drink and drive, but there are still people who will drink and drive. By your logic we should eliminate DWI laws because they don "ensure" DWI will never happen?

Over the past 30 years mandatory hunter safety courses have had a dramatic impact on decreasing hunting accidents. Such courses have not eliminated hunting accidents and will never totally eliminate them. That alone is not reason enough to abandon the mandatory courses.

Properly focused gun laws can help prevent unqualified people from possessing a gun. Such laws could never "ensure" that either unintentional or intentional shootings would not occur. But that alone is not reason enough to abandon the effort.
 
Your kidding right? First graders with guns? While were on the subject should they be allowed to smoke, drink & drive? WOW! your bringing crap to a whole new level. You want to know why states bust balls and treat law abiding citizens like untrustable idiots? Because of statements like that. Which will make ALL guns owners look like the idiots they think we are. Stupid statements like that set us back years.

How is that a stupid statement? As many a member has said 'They them self's did it". We have done it for years in this country with no problems at all. It's only nuts now because the anti gun nuts and the media say it is. Now a days in this great time of "FEAR" kids are treated like an Al Qaeda operative if they bring a nail clipper to school.

The idea that we implant this overwhelming fear of firearms into our kids heads is NUTS!

We have become this huge nation of consumers who are helpless to do anything on our own.

It use to be the kids responsibility to go hunting and bring back dinner with dad. So in the event dad was not there they could still survive.

I have seen children who have acted more mature and responsible then some so called adults I have meet. But yet they should not have the right to bear arms? Why is that? Because a group of adults says at that age they are not mature enough?

Yet in the 1800-1950's(and before) kids have been entrusted with firearms and even allowed to bring them to school. Yet strangely enough they did not shoot them self's or anyone else. The idea of a child who has been shown how to use a firearm and treat it with respect. Is not nuts it's as American as the Constitution.

Will all children be able to handle it? No, but why should the ones who can be denied simply because of those who cant?
 
Upstate New York has the highest percentage of conceal carry permit holders in the United States. NYS CC permits are issued for life, there is no renewal fee or renewal filing. NYS CC holders can carry in taverns and restaurants that serve alcohol.

Outstanding for them! So can many other states!
 
Is that your best rehtorical question you can come up with?

No law "ensures" that crime won't happen. Laws against DWI persuade people not to drink and drive, but there are still people who will drink and drive. By your logic we should eliminate DWI laws because they don "ensure" DWI will never happen?

Over the past 30 years mandatory hunter safety courses have had a dramatic impact on decreasing hunting accidents. Such courses have not eliminated hunting accidents and will never totally eliminate them. That alone is not reason enough to abandon the mandatory courses.

Properly focused gun laws can help prevent
unqualified people from possessing a gun.
Such laws could never "ensure" that either unintentional or intentional shootings would not occur. But that alone is not reason enough to abandon the effort.

Just who would the "unqualified people" be? Those who refuse to pay a another person,state,or federal government money in order to use their rights?

Or would the unqualified people be the "criminals"? Because we all know how well that works now.

How about making the people willing to roll over and surrender their rights the ones who are unqualified?

How about on the third strike we make it mandatory that the criminals are lobotomized and castrated?

Or maybe we can round them all up and dump them on a island? Such as in escape from LA.

Gun laws are not the problem, it's our inability and or unwillingness to keep the criminals locked up. I think the time has come to bring back the chain gangs and remove the TV's from cells and the AC. Remember when doing "Hard time" meant something in this country?

Now it's a taxpayer funded hotel stay with all the amenity's included. Free hot meals,AC,TV,free health care,Free dental etc..
 
No law "ensures" that crime won't happen. Laws against DWI persuade people not to drink and drive, but there are still people who will drink and drive. By your logic we should eliminate DWI laws because they don "ensure" DWI will never happen?
In order for there to be any equivalence to the history of gun control in this country, you'd have to ban liquor, cars or both... but only for "those people", be they Blacks, Indian, Jews or Italians.
 
Just who would the "unqualified people" be? Those who refuse to pay a another person,state,or federal government money in order to use their rights?

As for the economic issue, maybe the day will come when the court rules that the government must provide a self-defense weapon for use in one's home to those who can't otherwise afford one, similar to the way government has to provide an attorney to a person charged with a crime if the person cannot afford one.

As to your other questions, to give up a right you have to have a right in the first place. The SCOTUS has made it very clear that the definition of the right to bear arms does not mean "everyone, everywhere, any gun, all the time."

As for "qualified" people it is more a matter of determining who is "not qualified" for constitutional purposes, or more accurately, who is not covered by the scope of the Second Amendment right to bear arms. Those "unqualified" people simply don't have a right under the Second Amendment to be "given up." One can't give up what they don't have in the first place.

People with a history of violence, drug abusers, and alcoholics might be some of those who don't have a right to bear arms. Moreover, even if they were within the scope of the right to bear arms, they might be deemed "unqualified" under one of the other three criteria identified by Eugene Volokh in his writings on assessing the constitutionality of gun laws post-McDonald:

1. Limited Scope: A restriction might not be covered by the constitutional text, the original meaning of the text, the traditional understanding of the text’s scope, the background legal principles establishing who is entitled to various rights, or the categorical exceptions set forth by binding precedent (such as Heller’s statement that bans on gun possession by felons, bans on concealed carry, and several other kinds of gun controls are constitutional).

2. Slight Burden: A restriction might only slightly interfere with rightholders’ ability to get the benefits that the right secures, and thus might be a burden that doesn’t rise to the level of unconstitutionally “infring[ing]” the right

3. Reducing Danger: A restriction might reduce various dangers (in the case of arms possession, chiefly the dangers of crime and injury) so much that the court concludes that even a substantial burden is justified.

4. Government as Proprietor: The government might have special power stemming from its authority as proprietor, employer, or subsidizer to control behavior on its property or behavior by recipients of its property.

As Volokh points out, these are not simplistic issues resolved by shouting "shall not be infringed" because under the first criteria there is nothing to be infringed. It is only if we reach the second, third and fourth criteria where "infringement" becomes and issue.
 

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