Homeowner charged with attempted murder.


Didn't present any problems for Zimmerman. No witnesses - still not guilty.

Zimmerman had injuries to show. I believe that they contributed to his contention that he feared for his life or severe bodily injury. His screams for help were heard by the neighborhood, and the scuffle was witnessed. Is there any doubt that these factors influenced the jury? The case we are discussing has no such evidence to support the homeowner, and that is why he will have a much tougher time in court, I fear.
 

This is not about shooting to protect property, as a few have said, it is about shooting to protect one's life and the lives of one's family.

Here is an overview of Louisiana's Castle Doctrine (frankly, BC1, I don't give a good rip about what SC law has to say about this one; this shooting didn't take place in SC):

Castle Doctrine

"Louisiana’s castle law permits the use of physical force to protect one’s self and property from 'forcible crimes' and the use of deadly force in situations where circumstances are sufficient 'to excite the fear of a reasonable person that there would be serious danger to his own life or person if he attempted to prevent the felony without the killing.' The statute has a 'stand your ground' clause in that it does not require victims to retreat before using force, whether they’re inside their home or any other place they have a right to be," emphasis added. Louisiana Gun Rights - An Overview of Gun Laws in Louisiana

So what do we have here?

A professional thief (his brother's words) posts a sentry outside of a fenced property at around 1:40 or so in the AM (he is in violation of New Orleans' curfew ordinance, BTW) and then climbs over the fence (this was taped by a neighbor's security system).

The homeowner's dog begins barking.

The homeowner goes outside to see what is causing his dog to bark at 1:45 in the morning.

In one photo, there is what appears to be a single soffit-mounted light near the rear gate where the vehicle was located and it appears to be on in the photo, so we know that there was probably SOME lighting available (which should provide at least SOME deterrence to a would-be bad guy).

The vehicle was parked near the rear door of the house.

At this point, we don't know if the homeowner looked out a window to see what was causing his dog to bark or not. Even if he did, there is no guarantee that he would have seen what was causing the dog to bark.

He is armed. So am I.

He sees a person who has no legal right to be on his property within feet of his rear door, which also happens to be near his vehicle. Does he know how old this person is? I sincerely doubt it. And as I know from my own area, kids that young have been involved in shootings, stabbings, and other acts of physical violence on a fairly regular basis.

Now, the Louisiana law says that the use of deadly force is allowed "in situations where circumstances are sufficient 'to excite the fear of a reasonable person that there would be serious danger to his own life or person..."

Let's think this through.

A reasonable person hears his dog barking. Is his first thought to call the police? No. His first thought is to see what is causing the ruckus. He probably looks out the window, sees nothing, then goes outside to investigate further, tell his dog to be quiet. We have probably all been in similar situations many times ourselves.

On the off chance that the ruckus may be caused by the presence of a person, the reasonable person takes his firearm with him. Most of us here carry, and I think we would all agree that having one's firearm in this situation, however innocuous it may actually turn out to be, is a reasonable thing to do.

Upon investigation, the reasonable person finds a bad guy within feet of the rear door of his house, which also happens to be near his vehicle. At this point, does the reasonable person know whether the bad guy is going after his back door or his vehicle? No. Even if the bad guy IS targeting the vehicle initially, there is no way of knowing if he will try to access the house next. Given today's criminals, it is reasonable to assume the worst and hope to be proven wrong.

The reasonable person observes that the bad guy is there despite the barking of the dog, the presence of a soffit-mounted light, and, now, the presence of the reasonable person.

A reasonable person is not stopping to think at this juncture about the age of the bad guy. Why? Because the reasonable person knows that bad guys of all ages have committed violent crimes, and he now knows that the bad guy has seen him. To retreat into his home now may be to bring danger directly into his house, where his pregnant wife and young daughter are sleeping.

Having been confronted in his own fenced yard at 1:45 AM, the reasonable person is now in fear of what such a person will do to him and his family. The circumstances are sufficient to excite fear.

The reasonable person observes that the bad guy, at this point, is making no effort to flee the yard, despite the presence of the reasonable person.

The reasonable person, now fearful for his life and the lives of his family given the actions of the bad guy to this point, has drawn his firearm.

Instead of fleeing, the bad guy makes a motion that can be interpreted by a reasonable person as reaching for a weapon of some sort - not raising his hands in surrender or turning around to flee.

Now, I ask you, does the reasonable person at this juncture wait to see what kind of weapon the bad guy will produce, giving the bad guy the opportunity to get off the first shot or charge him with a knife?

THAT WOULD BE UNREASONABLE.

Now, the older brother is angry that his professional thief kid brother has been shot. He is angry because justice has not been done.

He's right - but not for the reasons he would like everyone to believe.

If justice had been done, his professional thief brother would have had his butt thrown in jail long before this incident took place, or the older brother and his mother would have turned him over to the courts themselves when it became obvious that his criminal activities could not be curbed. So once again we find ourselves faced with a situation in which the family is attempting to push responsibility for their own failures onto someone else - and that is where the similarity to the Zimmerman case stops.

PS -- I wonder where the sentry disappeared to?
 
The "I'm not responsible crowd" and the ambulance chasers love situations like these, especially if they can create a race issue with it.

Just proves IMHO that the honest guy WILL get screwed, aka no good deed will go unpunished in today's society of cry babies.
 
The Home Defense Foundation of New Orleans (hdfnola.org) is pushing for fixes to Louisiana's self defense laws to include a presumption defense addition to their castle law. They are also pushing to get the charges against the home owner dropped. You folks from LA might want to check them out.

     Home Defense Foundation of New Orleans - Home
 
Night or day come past my no trespassing signs, cameras and dog and you will be considered a life threat. Texas has castle doctrine any place I am legally allowed to be, this punk was not in a place he could legally be as such you will not have to worry about being robbed or attacked by a Thug.
 
I agree the kid was probably looking for something to steal. But gun owners have to realize that if the persons not in your house and doesn't present an immediate physical threat, you can't fire. Simple as that.
 
I agree the kid was probably looking for something to steal. But gun owners have to realize that if the persons not in your house and doesn't present an immediate physical threat, you can't fire. Simple as that.

Wrong. Laws differ from state to state, know yours and respond accordingly.
 
Deadly force may not be used in ANY state to protect property (except in the case of arson), only lives and to prevent SERIOUS bodily injury. I know of no state that permits deadly force (even by LE) to protect property.
 
Then you sir don't live in Texas. With just about any forcible Felony action it is legal to use deadly force to protect your property. This applies especially to the house and vehicle. If you see someone stealing your $400 worth of tires or radio out of your car, you can shoot their butt, even if you aren't IN the vehicle.
 
Then you sir don't live in Texas. With just about any forcible Felony action it is legal to use deadly force to protect your property. This applies especially to the house and vehicle. If you see someone stealing your $400 worth of tires or radio out of your car, you can shoot their butt, even if you aren't IN the vehicle.

Same in Washington, deadly force can be used to stop a felony.
 
This is New Orleans we are talking about, a little island of New York and Kalifornia liberal mentality in the south.
 
Then you sir don't live in Texas. With just about any forcible Felony action it is legal to use deadly force to protect your property. This applies especially to the house and vehicle. If you see someone stealing your $400 worth of tires or radio out of your car, you can shoot their butt, even if you aren't IN the vehicle.

No, I do not live in Texas, but I do have a Texas CCW permit. The instructor of my class (taken earlier this year) would not agree with your statement. Texas Penal Code states:

Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.
(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

Note that it does not say DEADLY force, and it says "to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary." Is it necessary to shoot someone stealing $400 tires?

At the following blog http://che,aperthandirt.com/blog/?p=23805 you will find the statement: "as a general rule, robbery, burglary, and any other felony that would be punishable with the death sentence is justified reason to use deadly force against another human being." I really doubt that even in Texas a thief would be sentenced to death for stealing a $400 tire.

Deadly force is different from force. Taking a life for a $400 tire is not reasonable in civilized society. Even Sharia law only mandates removing the hand of a thief, not the death penalty.
 
Deadly force may not be used in ANY state to protect property (except in the case of arson), only lives and to prevent SERIOUS bodily injury. I know of no state that permits deadly force (even by LE) to protect property.

Then before tonight, you have never actually looked for various states' code sections on the use of deadly force. I don't know the exact number right now, I want to say it's like 26 states that have a Castle Doctrine law, which in most, if not all instances, gives the green light to a property owner/occupant to use deadly force to prevent forcible burglary or robbery in any degree, and my state, Alabama, is one such state. Alabama Code Section 13A-3-23 states unambiguously in part:

A person may use deadly physical force, and is legally presumed to be justified in using deadly physical force in self-defense or the defense of another person pursuant to subdivision (4), if the person reasonably believes that another person is:

(1) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force.


(2) Using or about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling while committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling.


(3) Committing or about to commit a kidnapping in any degree, assault in the first or second degree, burglary in any degree, robbery in any degree, forcible rape, or forcible sodomy.


Try again. Oh, wait, you already did, and you completely misconstrued and selectively quoted Texas' Castle Doctrine verbiage as well:

Texas Penal Code states:

Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

<snip>

Note that it does not say DEADLY force, and it says "to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary." Is it necessary to shoot someone stealing $400 tires?

Why did you leave out the part that I put in bold above? The legal standard is not how much the property is worth or what the property actually is, the standard is the reasonable belief by the property owner/occupant that there is no other way for them to stop the property crime. Simple trespass is all the justification for the use of deadly force that is needed by the property owner/occupant in the section you quoted. They don't have to be stealing, vandalizing or otherwise harming property at all according to that code!

BTW, selective quoting is very bad form.

At the following blog http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=23805 you will find the statement: "as a general rule, robbery, burglary, AND any other felony that would be punishable with the death sentence is justified reason to use deadly force against another human being." I really doubt that even in Texas a thief would be sentenced to death for stealing a $400 tire.

I'm sorry, I really should take it easier on you, because it's obvious that you're not understanding what you're reading at umm....the Cheaper Than Dirt website! LOL Do you get all of your legal advice from Cheaper Than Dirt? Anyway, the "general rule" is that any burglary or robbery, and any other felony punishable by the death penalty justifies the use of deadly force. It's not either/or, all three types of crimes qualify as justifying deadly force.

Deadly force is different from force.

Prove it with definitions cited from the Texas Code. Best of luck with that.

Taking a life for a $400 tire is not reasonable in civilized society.

That is your opinion that is quite obviously not supported by the very code section you cited. I generally agree with you that tangible property is not worth taking a life over, but you're citing law, then selectively quoting it to make your point that what is, shouldn't be, and then you make up out of thin air that TX lawmakers intended the word "force" to only mean getting in a fist-fight (or whatever you fantasize it means) and that the word "deadly" must precede it for it to actually mean deadly force. It is impossible to decipher where the law begins, your opinion kicks in, and your fantasies end! Really man, it's not as hard as you're making it. Deadly force is presumed by the law to be justified in or on your own or rented property when someone is breaking or has broken in in most, if not all, of the states with a Castle Doctrine law, regardless of if they're there to steal something, hurt or kidnap you or assault or kill you, or just to use your commode and then be on their way! If they're uninvited and have already committed the crime of breaking and entering, the law allows you to presume their threatening and potentially deadly intentions in those jurisdictions.

Even Sharia law only mandates removing the hand of a thief, not the death penalty.

Maybe you'd feel more "civilized" moving to a country that is Sharia-compliant then.
_shrug__or__dunno__by_crula.gif


Stealing $400 worth of tires is a felony in Washington??? Can you point me to that section of the Washington Penal Code?

If Washington's Castle Doctrine law is as plainly-worded and unambiguous as Alabama's, then any degree of burglary and/or robbery justifies the use of deadly force.

Stick around man, you might actually learn something. However, people will get tired of doing your homework for you pretty quick. If you're going to make unequivocal statements of fact which are provably false, the best thing you can do for yourself to keep from being embarrassed in public is do your homework before making the statements to verify that your WAGs are correct. (BTW, "WAGs" = "Wild Ass Guesses" just in case you aren't familiar with that common shorthand.)

Have a good'un....

Blues
 
No, I do not live in Texas, but I do have a Texas CCW permit. The instructor of my class (taken earlier this year) would not agree with your statement. Texas Penal Code states:

Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property....

You need to re-read that section of the law. The level of force required to terminate trespass (that word, terminate, should have given you a clue) is determined by the owner of the property. It places no limit on level of force the property owner determines to be necessary. If the author of the law had wanted to stipulate a limitation on the kind of force that could reasonably be used, he/she would have limited the type of force to less than lethal. My great grandfather (this is in Michigan during the depression) had an employee who was stealing from him, but he could never catch him in the act. He rigged the wheels of his truck with an electrical wire. One morning he came out to find a dead employee - he was electrocuted as he tried to steal the wheels from the truck. The principle was simple: the theft of the tires equalled theft of my great-grandfather's ability to do business. Stealing those tires today equals the same thing - my ability to get to work, bring my kids to school, get to the hospital in case of an emergency. As it happens, Michigan law today doesn't allow the use of deadly force to prevent a property crime, but that doesn't mean that other states don't allow it.
 
You guys are cops aren't you? Is that why you have your heads stuck something?

You're replying to a quote I made weeks ago? Way to catch up. I couldnt even remember what this thread is about. And no, I work in sanitation.

Sent from my hand-held mind distractor
 
I don't know what laws are for homeowners. But from story I see he still in a safe area. I have all ways been told " Do not go search for trouble. You've no no backup with you.
Everybody in the house was in not in any inanimate threat.
Should have stayed put in the safe area call and wait for PD to arrive then if perp did get in to house the threatening danger orlife then defensive. Shooting I mightbe justified.
Sent from my LG-VM696 using USA Carry mobile app

huh ?
 

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