GREAT STORY!!! Bigg Up's to the cashier!
Question...
Do SOME or MOST people open carry in Saginaw? If so then that's the reason that there's no big deal about seeing an open firearm being carried around by regular civilians.
Very few folks open carry in Saginaw. An open carry dinner/picnic will draw about 20 people from the Flint/Saginaw/Owosso area and one or two from Lansing. So open carry in the Saginaw area is NOT being done by very many people.
The reason open carry all over Michigan is not a big deal is because folks open carried, got hassled, sued, won, and the media hoping to sensationalize open carry spread the word all over the State. And ordinary folks learned that open carry was not only legal and the police could be sued if they messed with an open carrier... they learned open carry is legal without a permit too.
I spoke against Firefighterchen because he told me that my FACTS were BS and how can he tell me ANYTHING about open carrying here in Michigan when he's not here to make a VALID opinion.
I NEVER deflected to offer information. I just won't banter back and fourth with someone who is trying to tell me about my experiences when they are only offering their opinion and as far as insults, I've been insulted since I first posted and I jab back when jabbed at with ANYBODY!
Sorry... but insults and ridicule, from either side no matter who starts it, are pointless and counterproductive. And folks who use insults and/or ridicule as an argumentative technique do not offer facts that would support their argument... generally, when someone resorts to insults and ridicule it means they have no facts. So no matter who said what to whom... facts, not opinion, is what will determine what the truth is.
This is the first time I've seen your links and I CAN'T argue against that because it's substantial and as far as the police supposedly laying off the harassment of people with open firearms... lets just say it's nothing more than a link! (something that they're SUPPOSED to do!) It STILL doesn't disregard the FACTS of MY EXPERIENCES and what I've seen and heard from others from teaching them as well as seeing actual situations as well as going through personal situations myself in regards to open carry.
I'm not saying that you, or others, have not had any negative experiences. What I, and others, are saying is just because you have had negative experiences or you have heard about others who have had negative experiences doesn't mean that is what is happening, or what will definitely happen, to everyone who open carries.
The reason I said that people have "freaked out" when they saw a open carried firearm is because I PERSONALLY went through that situation when I was open carrying before I obtained my CPL. Like I said... if people ARE NOT used to seeing REGULAR CIVILIANS with open firearms on the regular besides Police, Security Guards and Government Officials they will have a NEGATIVE REACTION to it.
And people not being used to seeing ordinary folks legally openly carrying is a very good reason for...... ordinary folks to legally open carry until seeing guns in public becomes as commonplace as seeing tattoos in public. But if folks are too scared to open carry because they heard they will be hassled... then the right to bear arms is lost and the only thing left is the government's permission to carry concealed. You do realize that a carry "permit" is the very infringement that "shall not be infringed" in the 2nd Amendment refers to because you must have the government's "permission" to do it?
Besides, people talk TOO MUCH and your business will be all over about what kind of firearm you're carrying. I'd rather catch em unknowingly! So in NO WAY is it BS because I've seen it AND gone through it! That's why I SUGGEST that people CONCEAL their firearms in order to avoid the negative attention because REALLY who has time for that kind of BS? I know I don't!
Well... if you don't have time for possible negative attention then... DON'T OPEN CARRY! Make that decision for yourself but kindly do not try to convince others to do as you say... not do as they might decide for themselves. Although I ardently defend open carry you don't see me bashing concealed carry and advocating folks should only open carry do you?
There was a situation a while back in Birmingham, MI in which a young man was harassed by the police when he was walking down the street with a 1942 military-issue semiautomatic rifle on his back JUST to exercise his right to open carry and was arrested unjustly. They said they arrested him because he wasn't cooperative and didn't show any ID when they asked him to but we all know that was the OVERPLAY for the UNDERLAY.
So, if they did that in Birmingham what do you think they'll do in Detroit? (The link pertaining to this article has been removed from the Detroit News free section. Look for yourself---->
Link Removed) Here's another forum about it here---->
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Heres another link about the story--->
Sean Combs Could Sue City After Winning Open Carry Gun Case | Video | TheBlaze.com
Yep... Sean got arrested... but are you aware that in Michigan you are NOT required to provide ID unless engaged in an activity that requires a license? And open carry in public, even of a rifle, in Michigan does NOT require a license.
So... Sean actually made great strides forward for the right to bear arms because HE DID NO WRONG, his innocence was upheld in court, and he has grounds for a civil suit.
Now... about a civil suit... it was open carriers bringing suit against police depts. that caused the State Police to issue that legal update #86 I mentioned. Without folks having the courage to actually force the issue open carry would still be thought of as illegal yet now nearly everyone in the State of Michigan is aware that it is legal. And the reason folks now know open carry is legal is because....... folks open carried.
And regardless of what some folks might think of, or have an opinion about, openly carrying a rifle in public... it is still "the right to bear arms". And when we start expecting a right to be subject to someone's opinion then we don't have a right.... we only have control according to opinions.
Until you come here and do it yourself and experience harassment OR NO harassment is when it can REALLY be substantiated from your OWN experience
and I'm NOT taking ANYTHING away from or disregarding your posts.
And I'm not disparaging your personal experiences either. I am only saying that your experiences are not the norm anymore. And they are not the norm because some folks were not afraid to stand up and experience the negative reactions from the police.
And the open carriers won all the way around.
Times have changed. Being hassled for legally openly carrying in Michigan (I strongly suggest folks know the applicable laws before open carrying) has now become a rarity. But that wouldn't have happened if everyone took your advice to be afraid to actually do it.
There is NO FEAR of fitting in or standing up for my right to bear arms or peoples view of me. My concern is that one will have to thwart a possible violent confrontation from someone trying to STILL approach them and trying to take their firearm from them...
Again... if you are standing up for the concealed carry permit you are NOT standing up for the right to bear arms because a "permit" is the government requiring you to have "permission"... and "permission" is NOT a "right".
Please provide cites and/or links to incidents where open carriers were attacked by someone trying to take their firearm from them. And you can use the entire U.S., including Arizona where open carry has been the norm for decades, as your data base. Bear in mind the number of actual factual verifiable incidents must be balanced against the decades that open carry has been practiced.
MAINLY WOMEN and SENIOR CITIZENS as they are the easiest potential victims. So as an instructor I think that the correct thing to do is to guide people in a direction of less turbulence. My instructor taught me the same thing and it makes GOOD SENSE to me so why not carry the torch and lead people down a easy path? It's a matter of perspective really on that.
Which looks like an easy victim? An old fart doddering along pushing a grocery cart across the parking lot? or.. An old fart doddering along pushing a grocery cart across the parking lot with a Glock on his hip? Which one would YOU go mess with? Would you really take the chance of getting shot thinking you can take the old fart's gun? Or would you wait and attack the old fart without a gun?
In short, Saginaw is MUCH different from Detroit my friend! Open Carry IS a cool thing but not according to my experiences here in the city and I will stick by my guns and CONTINUE to SUGGEST that people at least HERE in the city to conceal to avoid the unnecessary negative attention from the police and civilians based on my personal experiences.
And as long as you suggest folks be afraid to open carry then folks will be afraid to open carry and you have done them a disservice by instilling in them your own fear.
And Detroit is coming around because of a few courageous folks (including an African American gentleman who routinely openly carries 2 pistols in plain sight as he rides his bicycle around Detroit's bad areas) who are willing to not let the fear of negative encounters with the police intimidate them.
And if you were to actually read the posts at the link below you would read about the experiences the guy on the bicycle has had... and how his (and other people's) encounters have changed the Detroit police's perspective about open carry:
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I know there are more than 4000 posts.. yet anyone who wishes to discover the truth would take the time to do the research.
Once again.. BIG UP's to the cashier!!!