Element of surprise!

[Nightmare45]

Dress around your gun? Never occured to me. I carry a North American Arms 22magnum mini-revolver. Unless Im naked it is no problem to hide it. And even IF I am without clothing I could, well never mind. I had a Ruger Redhawk 44magnum with a 7 1/2 inch barrel and managed to conceal it. But it was just as good to open carry it. Does anyone have some popcorn?

Not bragging, but that's good.

 

[NavyLCDR]

WOW! NAVYLCDR a GENIUS here but he just hasn't used his BRAIN yet!

I appreciate the attention!

Ahhhhh, yes. The textbook reply of a troll who has no legitimate answer to offer to the question that was asked.

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

Not bragging, but that's good.

That IS Good! Orville Redenbacher Buttered served up!

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

If a person has not been attacked, than what threat of IMMEDIATE grave bodily harm exists? If the immediate threat does not exist, resulting from an attack already begun, than how can the concealed firearm be used to prevent the attack?

This is the LAST bit of spotlight I'm gonna give you...
There is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY of GRAVE BODILY HARM BEFORE and DURING a violent encounter because you DON'T KNOW what the ATTACKER is capable of doing OR what weapons they have CONCEALED on their person!

So the question to you NAVYLCDR is DO YOU RULE OUT the fact that there is or could be NO IMMEDIATE threat of GRAVE BODILY HARM?

NOW...
Using YOUR hypothetical situation.... If someone APPROACHES you in a THREATENING manner meaning that your reactionary response is either to stand guard and fight or flee, it can and usually WILL BE be CONSIDERED an ATTACK!

Therefore...
If one DOES NOT APPEAR to be ARMED and the ATTACKER is approaching the person in a THREATENING MANNER then the ELEMENT OF SURPRISE kicks in when you BRANDISH your firearm that the ATTACKER DID NOT know you had on you!

THEREFORE...
PREVENTING THE ATTACKER from doing ANY physical harm!
(rocket science I tell you...)

 

[Firefighterchen]

If a person has not been attacked, than what threat of IMMEDIATE grave bodily harm exists? If the immediate threat does not exist, resulting from an attack already begun, than how can the concealed firearm be used to prevent the attack?

This is the LAST bit of spotlight I'm gonna give you...
There is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY of GRAVE BODILY HARM BEFORE and DURING a violent encounter because you DON'T KNOW what the ATTACKER is capable of doing OR what weapons they have CONCEALED on their person!

So the question to you NAVYLCDR is DO YOU RULE OUT the fact that there is or could be NO IMMEDIATE threat of GRAVE BODILY HARM?

NOW...
Using YOUR hypothetical situation.... If someone APPROACHES you in a THREATENING manner meaning that your reactionary response is either to stand guard and fight or flee, it can and usually WILL BE be CONSIDERED an ATTACK!

Therefore...
If one DOES NOT APPEAR to be ARMED and the ATTACKER is approaching the person in a THREATENING MANNER then the ELEMENT OF SURPRISE kicks in when you BRANDISH your firearm that the ATTACKER DID NOT know you had on you!

THEREFORE...
PREVENTING THE ATTACKER from doing ANY physical harm!
(rocket science I tell you...)

Clinical Diagnosis: Tourettes with slight otism. Lol get it?

 

[NavyLCDR]

NOW...
Using YOUR hypothetical situation.... If someone APPROACHES you in a THREATENING manner meaning that your reactionary response is either to stand guard and fight or flee, it can and usually WILL BE be CONSIDERED an ATTACK!

Therefore...
If one DOES NOT APPEAR to be ARMED and the ATTACKER is approaching the person in a THREATENING MANNER then the ELEMENT OF SURPRISE kicks in when you BRANDISH your firearm that the ATTACKER DID NOT know you had on you!

THEREFORE...
PREVENTING THE ATTACKER from doing ANY physical harm!
(rocket science I tell you...)

But, but, but......you are now saying that I draw my gun and "brandish" it in response to an attack which you said previously that the element of surprise was going to prevent:

I NEVER SAID rely upon ELEMENT OF SURPRISE when a criminal has already attacked you NAVYLCDR.
Let me break it down to you ...

It's... meant... to... PREVENT them... from... ATTACKING YOU! (do you understand the words in this post?)

You can't seem to make up your mind Mr. Not-So-Swift.

Clinical Diagnosis: Tourettes with slight otism. Lol get it?

PERFECT description! Spot on!

 

[NavyLCDR]

It appears as if our OP has no concept of the difference between prevention and responsive action. Concealed carry and the "element of surpise" prevents nothing. The concealed handgun cannot be lawfully used for self defense until such a time that the defender has already come under attack. At that time, the handgun is drawn as a responsive action to an attack that has already begun. It is a responsive and reactionary use of force, a counter-attack, in response to an attack that has already begun. Yes, I will concede that the "element of surprise" will enhance the effectiveness of the counter-attack. However, the movement to draw the gun from concealment may very well be a tip-off to the attacker that defensive action is about to be taken allowing the attacker to take actions to prevent the counter-attack. Concealed carry and the "element of surprise" will do nothing to prevent the inital attack of the criminal upon the defender.

Now, if the potential victim is openly carrying a firearm, and the criminal sees that firearm and chooses to let the potential victim go on by, without taking any action against them, and wait for a seemingly unarmed victim to come along - THAT is prevention also known as deterrence.

 

[eagleeyes]

since i've been carrying with an iwb supertuck type holster i still can't tuck my shirt in without printing badly or looking bad ..i carry at 3;30 and that butt sticks out when i try to tuck the shirt in
i even tried to keep it loosely tucked on that side but it still don't look right or concealed well that way
so i just keep the shirt out

 

[NavyLCDR]

since i've been carrying with an iwb supertuck type holster i still can't tuck my shirt in without printing badly or looking bad ..i carry at 3;30 and that butt sticks out when i try to tuck the shirt in
i even tried to keep it loosely tucked on that side but it still don't look right or concealed well that way
so i just keep the shirt out

Just curious... does that prevent the criminal from attacking you, or allow you to defend yourself once the criminal has attacked you?

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

How about this pointer:

Don't presume to know and tell everyone else what is best for them not to do. I mean, come on... at least throw a "IMHO" at the beginning of your "instruction".

IMHO, of course.

I am contributing what COULD BE useful for other firearm carriers. I'm not telling anyone what to do.

F.Y.I.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Actually, I will retract a statement I made... when there is an option available to the criminal, the ability to carry concealed actually can prevent crime. Many criminals choose to gravitate to states like Illinois, New York and New Jersey where there is LESS likely chance and ability for Joe Citizens to carry firearms for self defense. However, that is not really a function of concealed carry as much as it is a funtion of the government creating an atmosphere rich in the number of unarmed victims.

That was exactly the reason "Big" Tim Sullivan enacted the first pistol permit system in New York in 1911. He was a mob boss and enacted the pistol permit system to reduce the amount of armed resistance the criminals paying him off were experiencing.

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

It appears as if our OP has no concept of the difference between prevention and responsive action. Concealed carry and the "element of surpise" prevents nothing. The concealed handgun cannot be lawfully used for self defense until such a time that the defender has already come under attack. At that time, the handgun is drawn as a responsive action to an attack that has already begun. It is a responsive and reactionary use of force, a counter-attack, in response to an attack that has already begun. Yes, I will concede that the "element of surprise" will enhance the effectiveness of the counter-attack. However, the movement to draw the gun from concealment may very well be a tip-off to the attacker that defensive action is about to be taken allowing the attacker to take actions to prevent the counter-attack. Concealed carry and the "element of surprise" will do nothing to prevent the inital attack of the criminal upon the defender.

Now, if the potential victim is openly carrying a firearm, and the criminal sees that firearm and chooses to let the potential victim go on by, without taking any action against them, and wait for a seemingly unarmed victim to come along - THAT is prevention also known as deterrence.

It appears that NAVY just wants to debate... Which is cool but make it worth while.

Simply put... If a weapon (concealed or open) is used to DETER an ATTACKER whether they SEE IT or were FORCED from CONCEALMENT to see it OR SAW IT attached to your hip FOR THEMSELVES and there is NO RESULT of PHYSICAL ATTACK or BODILY HARM then the ELEMENT OF SURPRISE has WORKED! (What's so hard to figure out about that?)

How does it NOT help to PREVENT a VIOLENT ENCOUNTER NAVY?

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

since i've been carrying with an iwb supertuck

Whats the price range on your holster?

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

But, but, but......you are now saying that I draw my gun and "brandish" it in response to an attack which you said previously that the element of surprise was going to prevent:

NOT-SO-NAVY...

READ AGAIN! I said to PREVENT what could be considered as an attack! Not DURING! You keep trying to say DURING...
You can't seem to make up your mind Mr. Not-So-Swift.

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

Actually, I will retract a statement I made... when there is an option available to the criminal, concealed carry actually can prevent crime.

Thank You Sir...

 

[Bikenut]

It appears as if our OP has no concept of the difference between prevention and responsive action. Concealed carry and the "element of surpise" prevents nothing. The concealed handgun cannot be lawfully used for self defense until such a time that the defender has already come under attack. At that time, the handgun is drawn as a responsive action to an attack that has already begun. It is a responsive and reactionary use of force, a counter-attack, in response to an attack that has already begun. Yes, I will concede that the "element of surprise" will enhance the effectiveness of the counter-attack. However, the movement to draw the gun from concealment may very well be a tip-off to the attacker that defensive action is about to be taken allowing the attacker to take actions to prevent the counter-attack. Concealed carry and the "element of surprise" will do nothing to prevent the inital attack of the criminal upon the defender.

Now, if the potential victim is openly carrying a firearm, and the criminal sees that firearm and chooses to let the potential victim go on by, without taking any action against them, and wait for a seemingly unarmed victim to come along - THAT is prevention also known as deterrence.

There is something the proponents of the "element of surprise" do not understand.... the advantage of the "element of surprise" is all in favor of the criminal because the concealed carriers is going to be "surprised" that he is being attacked and now it is necessary to respond to an attack already in progress....

Food for thought for those who disparage open carry and think concealed carry is some kind of mystical super ninja "element of surprise" magical spell...

Scenario #1...

A bad guy attacks a concealed carrier and the concealed carrier whips out his "element of surprise" .. the bad guy sees the gun, stops the attack, and runs away...

Scenario #2...

A bad guy is contemplating attacking but sees an open carried gun.... calls off his attack ... and nothing happens.

What is the commonality between the two scenarios?

When the bad guy saw a gun he stopped his attack... but...

With concealed carry the attack is stopped after it starts...

and..

With open carry the attack is stopped before it even begins.

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

I thought we were just friendly bantering....

However, to seriously address the OPs, ummmm, "instruction":



I open carry 90% of the time, if not more, and 90% of the general population never notices or shows no indication that they notice. When I choose to conceal my gun, I move my shirt from behind my gun to over it and nobody has ever said anything about my gun, except for my wife or daughter who might comment, "No gun today?" Reply, "Yes, I have it right here." I carry a stainless steel Taurus PT-145 in a Fobus OWB Paddle holster.

So, EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to dress around the gun?!? Really? Not in real life. I find it sadly humorous the great lengths that some people will go to bury their gun so deep under clothing while sacrificing the ability to rapidly deploy the gun - without a whole lot of noticeable movement - to convince themselves that nobody has any possibility of noticing their gun.

Just because no one says anything doesn't mean that they don't notice it.
The whole purpose of concealment is to APPEAR as if there's NOTHING on your person... Not to have a bulge showing under your shirt. DRESS AROUND YOUR FIREARM!

It's different from where I'm from. If you're not a Police Officer, Security Guard, ATF, CIA, FBI or Border Patrol Agent who USUALLY carries it in plain sight, then it usually brings negative attention to you from either "OH MY GOD! HE's GOT A GUN!" to the police stopping and harassing you or someone might be plotting on you to try to take it off your waist!(in very few cases will the last situation happen) It's BEST to keep it concealed to keep the negative attention from off of you as well as not giving people the "UP's" on you.

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

There is something the proponents of the "element of surprise" do not understand.... the advantage of the "element of surprise" is all in favor of the criminal because the concealed carriers is going to be "surprised" that he is being attacked and now it is necessary to respond to an attack already in progress

So even according to your hypothetical situations the Mystical Super Ninja Element Of Surprise was effective and that's the MAIN THING... To be EFFECTIVE!

 

[NavyLCDR]

It appears that NAVY just wants to debate... Which is cool but make it worth while.

Simply put... If a weapon (concealed or open) is used to DETER an ATTACKER whether they SEE IT or were FORCED from CONCEALMENT to see it OR SAW IT attached to your hip FOR THEMSELVES and there is NO RESULT of PHYSICAL ATTACK or BODILY HARM then the ELEMENT OF SURPRISE has WORKED! (What's so hard to figure out about that?)

How does it NOT help to PREVENT a VIOLENT ENCOUNTER NAVY?

NOT-SO-NAVY...

READ AGAIN! I said to PREVENT what could be considered as an attack! Not DURING! You keep trying to say DURING...
You can't seem to make up your mind Mr. Not-So-Swift.

Saying that the element of surprise prevents or deters an attack is like saying that wearing a seat belt will deter or prevent an automobile accident.

The concealed handgun and the seat belt are worn for the occasion when a violent attack or an accident has already occurred. The concealed handgun and the seat belt are worn and used in the hopes of preventing or minimizing the bodily injury or death that could occur during a violent attack or during an automobile accident.

It is illegal in almost all states to draw and "brandish" a handgun at another person unless they are ALREADY committing an ACT OF VIOLENCE against you and you are protecting yourself from the ACT OF VIOLENCE they are ALREADY in the process of committing.

So...now it appears that you are advocating using your "element of surprise", which means drawing a handgun and "brandishing" it at someone BEFORE they commit an act of violence against you - which would be an illegal act. It is only legal in almost every state to draw and "brandish" a handgun at someone when the defender has reasonable knowledge to believe that the "criminal" has the capability and intention to immediately inflict grave bodily harm or death. And in some states, the "brandishing" of the firearm is only legal AFTER the defender has exhausted all possibilities of escape!

Just because a person is briskly walking towards me, giving me the "evil eye" does not justify drawing my gun and "brandishing" it. It is not until the person takes action to reasonably cause me to believe that their intention is to commit a violent criminal act against me, and I have reasonable expectation that they have the means to accomplish the violent criminal act that I can be legally justified in "brandishing" my firearm.

So even according to your hypothetical situations the Mystical Super Ninja Element Of Surprise was effective and that's the MAIN THING... To be EFFECTIVE!

But the element of surprise cannot be legally effective to prevent the attack - it can only be legally effective to minimize or prevent an injury or death resulting from the attack that already took place.

It's different from where I'm from. If you're not a Police Officer, Security Guard, ATF, CIA, FBI or Border Patrol Agent who USUALLY carries it in plain sight, then it usually brings negative attention to you from either "OH MY GOD! HE's GOT A GUN!" to the police stopping and harassing you or someone might be plotting on you to try to take it off your waist!(in very few cases will the last situation happen) It's BEST to keep it concealed to keep the negative attention from off of you as well as not giving people the "UP's" on you.

First, you claim that it's different where you are from.... then you go on to tell everyone what is best for them. QUIT TELLING ME WHAT IS BEST FOR ME! Stick with what is best for you and carry your gun the way you think is best for you but quit trying to tell everyone here what is best for all of us because there is no possible way that you can know what is best for all of us!

 

[Bikenut]

Just because no one says anything doesn't mean that they don't notice it.

It's different from where I'm from. If you're not a Police Officer, Security Guard, ATF, CIA, FBI or Border Patrol Agent who USUALLY carries it in plain sight, then it usually brings negative attention to you from either "OH MY GOD! HE's GOT A GUN!" to the police stopping and harassing you or someone might be plotting on you to try to take it off your waist!(in very few cases will the last situation happen) It's BEST to keep it concealed to keep the negative attention from off of you as well as not giving people the "UP's" on you.

Ummmm.... I'm from Saginaw Michigan and I open carry everyday everywhere it is legal to do so... including in my bank, the Secretary of State's office, while voting, in many businesses, and to municipal council meetings demanding illegal gun bans in/on municipal property be revised to follow State law.. And there haven't been any "Oh MY GAWD! He's got a gun!" incidents...

In fact... I was at a local park when a woman asked me to put my gun in the car because, even though she knew it was legal, she didn't like it. I told her "No." and she called the cops. An officer arrived and explained to HER that not only did I have the legal right to openly carry a gun but SHE had no right to expect me not to. So much for your assertion about police harassment.

Now if you are intellectually honest Sir... may I suggest you follow the link below and read the more than 4000 posts concerning where folks have open carried in Michigan without incident?

Link Removed