Element of surprise!

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

There is a difference between promoting CC and bashing OC in favor of CC.

And the CC guys get all annoyed when they are asked to provide actual proof that the reasons they promote CC over OC are facts and not myth.

Just to clear the air... I wasn't bashing open carry.
I DO AGREE with you about the permit/permission.

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

Let me try and point a different light on the subject.

According to said logic, someone who had a child kill themselves with a firearm can say, "fact, all guns should be banned because kids kill themselves with them." Now, we all know the rarity of such occurrences and the fact guns are used 2.5 million times in self defense. This shows that guns should not be banned, because a family who lost their child was basing their opinion not on reality, but on an anomaly. Or does personal experience trump the big picture?

Facts are stronger when they have substantial evidence behind it. I can google open carry in Detroit and find hundreds of stories on open carriers doing just fine. Look at LAID: legally armed in Detroit.

I won't dismiss your personal experience. But at the same time, I know that it's not fact open carriers are getting negative attention on a grand scale. I don't need to physically be in Detroit to experience the weather or experience how open carriers are being responded to, not in this day and age of information sharing. The information is out there, saying, "because I said so," just doesn't cut it anymore.

I appreciate that and at the same time I can't tell you that whatever you say is BS in Washington State because I'm not there. I can look up positives AND negatives from anywhere in the world when it comes from the internet. One can only draw logical conclusions from what they've personally experienced.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I can look up positives AND negatives from anywhere in the world when it comes from the internet. One can only draw logical conclusions from what they've personally experienced.

Unfortunately, 95% of what you obtain from the internet is going to be the negative....and the extreme negative at that. So, you are correct, one can only draw logical conclusions from what they've personally experienced. That is why it is bothersome to some us when those that have not had our personal experiences attempt to say what is right or best for everyone. :blink: Universal statements such as open carry WILL draw unwanted attention and cause panic just do not hold true for most of us that open carry in our daily lives.

 

[Treo]

I guess Navy is a little off his game

 

[Firefighterchen]

Let me try and point a different light on the subject.

According to said logic, someone who had a child kill themselves with a firearm can say, "fact, all guns should be banned because kids kill themselves with them." Now, we all know the rarity of such occurrences and the fact guns are used 2.5 million times in self defense. This shows that guns should not be banned, because a family who lost their child was basing their opinion not on reality, but on an anomaly. Or does personal experience trump the big picture?

Facts are stronger when they have substantial evidence behind it. I can google open carry in Detroit and find hundreds of stories on open carriers doing just fine. Look at LAID: legally armed in Detroit.

I won't dismiss your personal experience. But at the same time, I know that it's not fact open carriers are getting negative attention on a grand scale. I don't need to physically be in Detroit to experience the weather or experience how open carriers are being responded to, not in this day and age of information sharing. The information is out there, saying, "because I said so," just doesn't cut it anymore.

I appreciate that and at the same time I can't tell you that whatever you say is BS in Washington State because I'm not there. I can look up positives AND negatives from anywhere in the world when it comes from the internet. One can only draw logical conclusions from what they've personally experienced.

First I'd like to apologize for throwing the first jab.

A mind willing to learn does not need to physically experience a phenomena to understand it. If that was not the case, everything I learned in paramedic school would be useless to me as I have never experienced for example, a diabetic emergency, a life threatening trauma, or a hundreds of other medical emergencies.

Nearly every study I learn from in medicine is from another state, another city, being done by completely different paramedics doing different protocols. That doesn't mean I can't understand it or learn from it.

All it takes is a mind willing to open up. I have personally experience dozens of people say what you say, and I have personally experience none of it coming true. Not just in my town, but in my neighboring cities, and neighboring states.

Like bikenut has been saying, we aren't bashing concealed carry and we aren't saying everyone should open carry, we are fighting a stigmata that plagues open carry that just isn't true when you look at the big picture.

 

[eagleeyes]

I guess Navy is a little off his game

that looks like adrianna cole??? perhaps a few years back???

 

[BC1]

B-O-R-I-N-G!!!!!

This subject has been beaten like a red-headed stepson.

 

[fudo]

That was one of the fastest draws I have ever seen on TV, I remember that one.

I saw an episode of "I Spy" where Robert Culp is sitting at the counter in a diner, and some idiot pulls a knife on him. Culp draws what looked like a S&W J frame from an OWB holster to stick it in the punks face. You get to see the whole draw start to finish, including the sweeping of the cover jacket. Robert Culp was blindingly fast. I wouldn't mind seeing that again.

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

First I'd like to apologize for throwing the first jab.

A mind willing to learn does not need to physically experience a phenomena to understand it. If that was not the case, everything I learned in paramedic school would be useless to me as I have never experienced for example, a diabetic emergency, a life threatening trauma, or a hundreds of other medical emergencies.

Nearly every study I learn from in medicine is from another state, another city, being done by completely different paramedics doing different protocols. That doesn't mean I can't understand it or learn from it.

All it takes is a mind willing to open up. I have personally experience dozens of people say what you say, and I have personally experience none of it coming true. Not just in my town, but in my neighboring cities, and neighboring states.

Like bikenut has been saying, we aren't bashing concealed carry and we aren't saying everyone should open carry, we are fighting a stigmata that plagues open carry that just isn't true when you look at the big picture.

Apologies for another long post but here goes....

I understand the fact that CC DOES allow the "Powers That Be" to have and angle of control over what "WE" (the citizens) should have as a natural right according to the 2nd Amendment. So your stance is TOTALLY PRO OC in a NO HOLDS BARRED fashion and I respect that.

I didn't understand what you guy's angle was until after we DISCUSSED it instead of attacking each other. At the same time, the comment of my experience wasn't a generalized comment in saying that EVERYONE in Michigan or Detroit has a negative reaction towards OC but according to my experience the negative reactions is something that actually happened because in Detroit SOME (political correctness) people don't see regular civilians OCing on the regular. You don't even see it SOME of the time here in the inner city.

Case and point...
I went to the gas station last night about 1:30am and I was OCing and as soon as I pulled up to the pump and looked at the patrons standing inside the gas station and the attendant behind the glass. They were looking at me with eyebrows raised and eyes bucked and you could see that they were clearly talking about the firearm on my waist because one guy turned to another and 3 other guys including the attendant all turned around and focused their attention on me just as I hopped off my bike and was approaching the entrance of the gas station. My ONLY assumption of logical thought was that these guys MUST be thinking that I'm coming to rob the place due to the fact that it happens quite frequently here in the city. When I got inside, all BULGED eyes were on me and there was a brief moment of silence until I approached the end of the line when one of the guys said to me... "you just lettin' it all hang out huh?" I replied to him that Michigan is an OC state and from there him and the other patrons started asking me questions about OCing and CCing and you could feel the tension start to die down. I presume it was because they could see that I was there to purchase gas and not rob the place.

Had I done this in an area where I am familiar with the people, there would have been conversations about me carrying a firearm which I'm NOT comfortable with due to the fact that here in Detroit, there are SOME(political correctness) criminals who will get the "UP's" on you and try to steal your firearm from your house or even try to rob you for your firearm. Unfortunate but true!

Case and Point...
A young guy in his 20's who stays across the street from me was robbed in his own driveway in broad daylight a few weeks ago and the guy who robbed him KNEW that he was a CCW holder who usually carries his firearm because he was always bragging on it. During the robbery along with taking the keys to his truck, his watch, glasses and money the guy asked him "where is your gun? RUN IT!" and just so happened that he didn't have it on him that day. This was told to us by the guy who was robbed directly after the encounter as he came to us to seek refuge and he asked if there was a firearm available that he could use.

 

[BC1]

A young guy in his 20's who stays across the street from me was robbed in his own driveway in broad daylight a few weeks ago and the guy who robbed him KNEW that he was a CCW holder who usually carries his firearm because he was always bragging on it. During the robbery along with taking the keys to his truck, his watch, glasses and money the guy asked him "where is your gun? RUN IT!" and just so happened that he didn't have it on him that day. This was told to us by the guy who was robbed directly after the encounter as he came to us to seek refuge and he asked if there was a firearm available that he could use.

There are no hard and fast rules on what any perp will do. Sometimes Flaco is tweeked out, doesn't see the gun or knows it's there and doesn't care. See Flaco was born with fetal-alcohol syndrome because his mother drank, smoked dope and tweeked while she was pregnant. So Flaco lacks frontal lobe development. He cannot control impulses, fits of rage or anger and his judgment ability is severely impaired. Flaco doesn’t know what planet he's on. And despite where he lives, he shops in the same Wally-World as we do.

One case that comes to mind is currently unfolding in Newburgh, NY. In the case of Michael Lembhard, a 22-year-old father or two, police were seeking him on a warrant for failure to appear. Lembhard was awaiting an appearance for attacking someone with a knife. Police saw him and he ran. They chased him right into his sisters house (they are legally allowed to chase him into the premises so long as they never lost sight of him during the chase). WHen confronted in the kitchen he became violent. Police drew their weapons. Lembhard then picked up a kitchen knife and lunged at three police officers who had guns drawn. The presence of the gun had zero affect on this perp with a long violent history. He was shot dead. Now his family blames police. Watch the video of them disrupting the city council meeting --> Chaos Erupts Following Police Shooting Of Father Of 2 In Newburgh « CBS New York.Governor Cuomo's staff reviewed the facts of the case and decided the actions of the police were not wrong considering the level and severity of the attack in a fifteen foot room. The request for a special prosecutor was denied by the governor. BTW, when I say I was raised in the ghetto? This is my home town.

Now a few weeks ago a P.I. lied his way onto my property to investigate whether my wife was injured in a car accident. He was clearly printing. I asked him if he had a gun. He said no. I patted his waist and felt it. I took him physically by the ear and walked him to his car... by his ear. Pushed him in and actually kicked him in the ass as he fell in the driver side. I warned him of the consequences of returning. He threatened police... but we both knew that was going nowhere. The presence of that gun made ZERO difference to me.

Now I'm not arguing for or against. I'm just pointing out that the known presence of a gun is not always gonna be a deterrent. And a CC weapon does not provide an advantage of surprise either. There are no hard and fast rules on this.

 

[Bikenut]

-snip-
Case and point...
I went to the gas station last night about 1:30am and I was OCing and as soon as I pulled up to the pump and looked at the patrons standing inside the gas station and the attendant behind the glass. They were looking at me with eyebrows raised and eyes bucked and you could see that they were clearly talking about the firearm on my waist because one guy turned to another and 3 other guys including the attendant all turned around and focused their attention on me just as I hopped off my bike and was approaching the entrance of the gas station. My ONLY assumption of logical thought was that these guys MUST be thinking that I'm coming to rob the place due to the fact that it happens quite frequently here in the city. When I got inside, all BULGED eyes were on me and there was a brief moment of silence until I approached the end of the line when one of the guys said to me... "you just lettin' it all hang out huh?" I replied to him that Michigan is an OC state and from there him and the other patrons started asking me questions about OCing and CCing and you could feel the tension start to die down. I presume it was because they could see that I was there to purchase gas and not rob the place.
-snip-

Actually I would consider that experience to be a positive one for open carry since those folks just got a lesson on how an ordinary guy carrying a gun isn't a threat.

 

[Bikenut]

-snip-
Case and Point...
A young guy in his 20's who stays across the street from me was robbed in his own driveway in broad daylight a few weeks ago and the guy who robbed him KNEW that he was a CCW holder who usually carries his firearm because he was always bragging on it. During the robbery along with taking the keys to his truck, his watch, glasses and money the guy asked him "where is your gun? RUN IT!" and just so happened that he didn't have it on him that day. This was told to us by the guy who was robbed directly after the encounter as he came to us to seek refuge and he asked if there was a firearm available that he could use.
-snip-

The guy was robbed in his driveway.. by someone who knew the guy carried a gun... but the guy wasn't carrying at the time so the robber didn't get the gun... but the guy came to you and asked if there was a firearm he could use...

Something isn't adding up... was the robber still hanging around? Why didn't the guy use his own gun that the robber didn't get?

Not knocking what you said.... just looking for clarification since it would appear there is some important information missing.

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

Something isn't adding up... was the robber still hanging around? Why didn't the guy use his own gun that the robber didn't get?

Not knocking what you said.... just looking for clarification since it would appear there is some important information missing.

The gun wasnt at his house nor could he leave to go get it because the guys took his keys so he couldnt chase after them.
People on the block saw them but they looked like ordinary kids and when they saw them running away they thought nothing of it because they looked like some kids running and playing tag or something and until he came across the street in a frenzy and asked for some "heat" and explained to us what happened did it add up.

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

Actually I would consider that experience to be a positive one for open carry since those folks just got a lesson on how an ordinary guy carrying a gun isn't a threat.

True. The end result was positive but the initial reaction was that of fear.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The gun wasnt at his house nor could he leave to go get it because the guys took his keys so he couldnt chase after them.
People on the block saw them but they looked like ordinary kids and when they saw them running away they thought nothing of it because they looked like some kids running and playing tag or something and until he came across the street in a frenzy and asked for some "heat" and explained to us what happened did it add up.

Two questions:

Did you give him a gun?

What good would giving him a gun actually accomplish?

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Actually I would consider that experience to be a positive one for open carry since those folks just got a lesson on how an ordinary guy carrying a gun isn't a threat.

True. The end result was positive but the initial reaction was that of fear.

I've reread your account of the incident and because, in your own words, you were making an "assumption" and a "presumption" concerning the reactions of the other folks I'm wondering .... who was experiencing the fear?

Were the folks afraid you were there to rob the place? Were you afraid the folks were thinking you were there to rob the place but they were thinking something entirely different? Was everyone afraid of everyone else?

Regardless... the outcome was still positive.

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

There are no hard and fast rules on what any perp will do. Sometimes Flaco is tweeked out, doesn't see the gun or knows it's there and doesn't care. See Flaco was born with fetal-alcohol syndrome because his mother drank, smoked dope and tweeked while she was pregnant. So Flaco lacks frontal lobe development. He cannot control impulses, fits of rage or anger and his judgment ability is severely impaired. Flaco doesn’t know what planet he's on. And despite where he lives, he shops in the same Wally-World as we do.

One case that comes to mind is currently unfolding in Newburgh, NY. In the case of Michael Lembhard, a 22-year-old father or two, police were seeking him on a warrant for failure to appear. Lembhard was awaiting an appearance for attacking someone with a knife. Police saw him and he ran. They chased him right into his sisters house (they are legally allowed to chase him into the premises so long as they never lost sight of him during the chase). WHen confronted in the kitchen he became violent. Police drew their weapons. Lembhard then picked up a kitchen knife and lunged at three police officers who had guns drawn. The presence of the gun had zero affect on this perp with a long violent history. He was shot dead. Now his family blames police. Watch the video of them disrupting the city council meeting --> Chaos Erupts Following Police Shooting Of Father Of 2 In Newburgh « CBS New York.Governor Cuomo's staff reviewed the facts of the case and decided the actions of the police were not wrong considering the level and severity of the attack in a fifteen foot room. The request for a special prosecutor was denied by the governor. BTW, when I say I was raised in the ghetto? This is my home town.

Now a few weeks ago a P.I. lied his way onto my property to investigate whether my wife was injured in a car accident. He was clearly printing. I asked him if he had a gun. He said no. I patted his waist and felt it. I took him physically by the ear and walked him to his car... by his ear. Pushed him in and actually kicked him in the ass as he fell in the driver side. I warned him of the consequences of returning. He threatened police... but we both knew that was going nowhere. The presence of that gun made ZERO difference to me.

Now I'm not arguing for or against. I'm just pointing out that the known presence of a gun is not always gonna be a deterrent. And a CC weapon does not provide an advantage of surprise either. There are no hard and fast rules on this.

I agree... 15 characters

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

I've reread your account of the incident and because, in your own words, you were making an "assumption" and a "presumption" concerning the reactions of the other folks I'm wondering .... who was experiencing the fear?

Were the folks afraid you were there to rob the place? Were you afraid the folks were thinking you were there to rob the place but they were thinking something entirely different? Was everyone afraid of everyone else?

Regardless... the outcome was still positive.

It was CLEARLY obvious that they were in fear of me. As I approached the gas station the first guy saw me with his eyebrows raised and eyes bucked (which=fear) and I could see him talking to the other patrons in the line as well as the attendant and when he did that, they ALL turned and looked at me through the window of the gas station as I was approaching the entrance. When I was inside, they all were silent and staring at me with the same exact facial expressions... eyes bulged and eyebrows raised looking at me and what was hanging from my waist until the guy asked me "you just lettin' it all hang out huh?" It wasn't until after that did the tension started to leave the atmosphere.

There was NO FEAR from my angle, I was just going to get some gas. It was a presumed thought because of the way they looked at me with FEAR on their faces from their expressions. Here it is, it's 1:30am in Detroit and you see a guy with a gun on his hip coming into a gas station. Mind you, SOME to MOST(political correctness) people in the city don't always walk around with guns in plain view so for them to see that was already something that caught their attention gas station robberies happen pretty frequently around here.

 

[Sir Swiftus Funkellwerk]

Two questions:

Did you give him a gun?

What good would giving him a gun actually accomplish?

I didnt give him a gun nor would giving him a gun at that point would have made any difference. He would have had to chase them on foot and by that time they already had a 3 or 4 block stretch ahead of him. He would have never caught them. PLUS, the guy smokes too much! He would've probably ran out of wind and stopped if he had to chase them and he's a young guy. (terrible)

 

[Bikenut]

-snip-
eyes bucked (which=fear)
-snip-

From:

Link Removed

Buck´-eyed`
a. 1. Having bad or speckled eyes.

or did the meaning of that change while I was getting old?