Element of surprise!


Just because no one says anything doesn't mean that they don't notice it.
The whole purpose of concealment is to APPEAR as if there's NOTHING on your person... Not to have a bulge showing under your shirt. DRESS AROUND YOUR FIREARM!

It's different from where I'm from. If you're not a Police Officer, Security Guard, ATF, CIA, FBI or Border Patrol Agent who USUALLY carries it in plain sight, then it usually brings negative attention to you from either "OH MY GOD! HE's GOT A GUN!" to the police stopping and harassing you or someone might be plotting on you to try to take it off your waist!(in very few cases will the last situation happen) It's BEST to keep it concealed to keep the negative attention from off of you as well as not giving people the "UP's" on you.
Your location says you are from Michigan... and I'm from Saginaw Michigan and I open carry everyday everywhere it is legal to do so... in fact I just got home from open carrying in the Taco Bell and Wal Mart in Clio.

The wife and I left money at the register to pay for the next person's meal at Taco Bell and aside from being thanked NOT ONE PERSON freaked out, NOT ONE PERSON avoided me, no cops put me on the floor at gun point and yes, folks noticed my open sidearm and no one much shave a git...

And at Wal Mart I spoke with many members of Wal Mart's staff while waiting to buy some ammo and I also spoke with customers annoyed because no one was at sporting goods to help. NOT ONE PERSON freaked out... NOT ONE PERSON avoided me... no cops put me on the floor at gun point... and yes, folks noticed my open sidearm and no one much shave a git...

And such is the general experience of 4000 + other postings about open carry all over the State of Michigan from the Upper Peninsula to the heavily populated Detroit area that can be read here:

Link Removed

So I'll just say it like it is... Your assertions that folks in Michigan scream "OH MY GOD! HE's GOT A GUN!" when they see an open carrier are total BS..

What I find interesting is you rail against Firefighterchen's references to my link, the same link I reposted above... yet you fail to address the information contained within that link.

And in reference to your claim that police will stop and harass open carriers may I direct you to the Michigan State Police Legal Update #86 that was distributed to every police agency in Michigan to stop any illegal harassment of open carriers? You can read it at the link below:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

And your claim that it is "It's BEST to keep it concealed to keep the negative attention from off of you" is nothing more than your own fear of open carry causing you to be noticed, the fear of not being able to adequately explain why you are actually standing up for the right to bear arms (or is it the fear of actually standing up for the right to bear arms? Or both?), the fear that folks might look at you funny, might ask you questions, might shun you, and that you won't "fit in" ...being projected onto everyone else.

There is hope though if you can man up and prove your assertions are fact with cites and/or links.... but attempts to deflect and avoid offering any proof that your assertions are fact while hoping to evade proving your claims by resorting to insults and ridicule will relegate your postings to the category of... unsubstantiated opinion. And everyone will know that a supposed "instructor" is... well... full of BS.

A funny open carry incident (and yes, I have an audio/video recording of the event since I record everything it is legal to record when open carrying) while at Wal Mart one afternoon...

I was in the check out line and I noticed the gal at the register glance at my openly carried sidearm... and as she rang up the bottle of wine, personal lubricant, and .. umm.. male protective wear I had put on the counter she said "Whoooo! Party tonight!"

Ummm... I hope that humorous (and true) story doesn't get me booted off the forum... but it illustrates that open carry doesn't interfere with the normal everyday interactions with people.
 

brings up a question ....i'm in florida and my ccwp says concealed carry not open carry but if i were to go to michigan could i legally open carry? or must i continue to conceal carry being florida only allows me to conceal?
Please follow this link:

Link Removed

And ask your question. Not only will you get an answer but folks there will offer cites and/or links to factual information....
 
didn't want to join another forum but i did and used your name as a reference and will post the question in open carry questions on the forum
 
bikenut in florida i would loose my permit to carry if i oc'd here and yes i guess i do have some fear there that if i oc'd here i would lose my rights to carry .......but if everyone did like michigan i would probably do the same for the most part but i still don't like strangers knowing what i have and it should be our choice as to how we want to carry not the states or governments so long we not abusing our rights or threatening folks or using our guns in unlawful manner imo
 
Your location says you are from Michigan... and I'm from Saginaw Michigan and I open carry everyday everywhere it is legal to do so... in fact I just got home from open carrying in the Taco Bell and Wal Mart in Clio.

The wife and I left money at the register to pay for the next person's meal at Taco Bell and aside from being thanked NOT ONE PERSON freaked out, NOT ONE PERSON avoided me, no cops put me on the floor at gun point and yes, folks noticed my open sidearm and no one much shave a git...

And at Wal Mart I spoke with many members of Wal Mart's staff while waiting to buy some ammo and I also spoke with customers annoyed because no one was at sporting goods to help. NOT ONE PERSON freaked out... NOT ONE PERSON avoided me... no cops put me on the floor at gun point... and yes, folks noticed my open sidearm and no one much shave a git...

And such is the general experience of 4000 + other postings about open carry all over the State of Michigan from the Upper Peninsula to the heavily populated Detroit area that can be read here:

Link Removed

So I'll just say it like it is... Your assertions that folks in Michigan scream "OH MY GOD! HE's GOT A GUN!" when they see an open carrier are total BS..

What I find interesting is you rail against Firefighterchen's references to my link, the same link I reposted above... yet you fail to address the information contained within that link.

And in reference to your claim that police will stop and harass open carriers may I direct you to the Michigan State Police Legal Update #86 that was distributed to every police agency in Michigan to stop any illegal harassment of open carriers? You can read it at the link below:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

And your claim that it is "It's BEST to keep it concealed to keep the negative attention from off of you" is nothing more than your own fear of open carry causing you to be noticed, the fear of not being able to adequately explain why you are actually standing up for the right to bear arms (or is it the fear of actually standing up for the right to bear arms? Or both?), the fear that folks might look at you funny, might ask you questions, might shun you, and that you won't "fit in" ...being projected onto everyone else.

There is hope though if you can man up and prove your assertions are fact with cites and/or links.... but attempts to deflect and avoid offering any proof that your assertions are fact while hoping to evade proving your claims by resorting to insults and ridicule will relegate your postings to the category of... unsubstantiated opinion. And everyone will know that a supposed "instructor" is... well... full of BS.

A funny open carry incident (and yes, I have an audio/video recording of the event since I record everything it is legal to record when open carrying) while at Wal Mart one afternoon...

I was in the check out line and I noticed the gal at the register glance at my openly carried sidearm... and as she rang up the bottle of wine, personal lubricant, and .. umm.. male protective wear I had put on the counter she said "Whoooo! Party tonight!"

Ummm... I hope that humorous (and true) story doesn't get me booted off the forum... but it illustrates that open carry doesn't interfere with the normal everyday interactions with people.

GREAT STORY!!! Bigg Up's to the cashier!

Question...
Do SOME or MOST people open carry in Saginaw? If so then that's the reason that there's no big deal about seeing an open firearm being carried around by regular civilians.

I spoke against Firefighterchen because he told me that my FACTS were BS and how can he tell me ANYTHING about open carrying here in Michigan when he's not here to make a VALID opinion.

I NEVER deflected to offer information. I just won't banter back and fourth with someone who is trying to tell me about my experiences when they are only offering their opinion and as far as insults, I've been insulted since I first posted and I jab back when jabbed at with ANYBODY!

This is the first time I've seen your links and I CAN'T argue against that because it's substantial and as far as the police supposedly laying off the harassment of people with open firearms... lets just say it's nothing more than a link! (something that they're SUPPOSED to do!) It STILL doesn't disregard the FACTS of MY EXPERIENCES and what I've seen and heard from others from teaching them as well as seeing actual situations as well as going through personal situations myself in regards to open carry.

The reason I said that people have "freaked out" when they saw a open carried firearm is because I PERSONALLY went through that situation when I was open carrying before I obtained my CPL. Like I said... if people ARE NOT used to seeing REGULAR CIVILIANS with open firearms on the regular besides Police, Security Guards and Government Officials they will have a NEGATIVE REACTION to it. Besides, people talk TOO MUCH and your business will be all over about what kind of firearm you're carrying. I'd rather catch em unknowingly! So in NO WAY is it BS because I've seen it AND gone through it! That's why I SUGGEST that people CONCEAL their firearms in order to avoid the negative attention because REALLY who has time for that kind of BS? I know I don't!

There was a situation a while back in Birmingham, MI in which a young man was harassed by the police when he was walking down the street with a 1942 military-issue semiautomatic rifle on his back JUST to exercise his right to open carry and was arrested unjustly. They said they arrested him because he wasn't cooperative and didn't show any ID when they asked him to but we all know that was the OVERPLAY for the UNDERLAY.
So, if they did that in Birmingham what do you think they'll do in Detroit? (The link pertaining to this article has been removed from the Detroit News free section. Look for yourself----> Link Removed) Here's another forum about it here----> Link Removed

Heres another link about the story---> Sean Combs Could Sue City After Winning Open Carry Gun Case | Video | TheBlaze.com

Until you come here and do it yourself and experience harassment OR NO harassment is when it can REALLY be substantiated from your OWN experience and I'm NOT taking ANYTHING away from or disregarding your posts.

There is NO FEAR of fitting in or standing up for my right to bear arms or peoples view of me. My concern is that one will have to thwart a possible violent confrontation from someone trying to STILL approach them and trying to take their firearm from them... MAINLY WOMEN and SENIOR CITIZENS as they are the easiest potential victims. So as an instructor I think that the correct thing to do is to guide people in a direction of less turbulence. My instructor taught me the same thing and it makes GOOD SENSE to me so why not carry the torch and lead people down a easy path? It's a matter of perspective really on that.

In short, Saginaw is MUCH different from Detroit my friend! Open Carry IS a cool thing but not according to my experiences here in the city and I will stick by my guns and CONTINUE to SUGGEST that people at least HERE in the city to conceal to avoid the unnecessary negative attention from the police and civilians based on my personal experiences.

Once again.. BIG UP's to the cashier!!!
 
I agree! So would you agree or disagree that another line of defense is your exterior presence, demeanor?

So would you agree or disagree that another line of defense is your exterior presence, demeanor?
I would say that your alertness of what is around you, your level of confidence in your ability will show others that you are not an easy target, and that it is not just another line of defense. It is your first line of defense.
 
Let me try and point a different light on the subject.

According to said logic, someone who had a child kill themselves with a firearm can say, "fact, all guns should be banned because kids kill themselves with them." Now, we all know the rarity of such occurrences and the fact guns are used 2.5 million times in self defense. This shows that guns should not be banned, because a family who lost their child was basing their opinion not on reality, but on an anomaly. Or does personal experience trump the big picture?

Facts are stronger when they have substantial evidence behind it. I can google open carry in Detroit and find hundreds of stories on open carriers doing just fine. Look at LAID: legally armed in Detroit.

I won't dismiss your personal experience. But at the same time, I know that it's not fact open carriers are getting negative attention on a grand scale. I don't need to physically be in Detroit to experience the weather or experience how open carriers are being responded to, not in this day and age of information sharing. The information is out there, saying, "because I said so," just doesn't cut it anymore.
 
I'm curious - when you are relying upon the element of surprise to defend against a criminal who has already attacked you - do you recommend yelling at the top of your lungs, "SURPRISE!" when you draw your gun?

Also... practice, practice, practice....


And isn't it better to call 911 and be the best witness possible anyway?


That was one of the fastest draws I have ever seen on TV, I remember that one.
 
bikenut in florida i would loose my permit to carry if i oc'd here and yes i guess i do have some fear there that if i oc'd here i would lose my rights to carry .......but if everyone did like michigan i would probably do the same for the most part but i still don't like strangers knowing what i have and it should be our choice as to how we want to carry not the states or governments so long we not abusing our rights or threatening folks or using our guns in unlawful manner imo
It is not legal to open carry in Florida so if you did you would be arrested. Of course I know you knew that... just mentioning it to clarify if someone else reads this stuff.

i posted my question no one answered yet
here the link to where my question posted
Link Removed
There have been two answers so far this morning... alas the two posters didn't provide cites to laws. Hang on ... there will be other replies.

Oh... and there is also a Florida section of that forum here:

Link Removed
 
You know, you OC guys get all annoyed when someone promotes CC on your forum... <shrug>
There is a difference between promoting CC and bashing OC in favor of CC.

And the CC guys get all annoyed when they are asked to provide actual proof that the reasons they promote CC over OC are facts and not myth.
 
Because your post is so long my comments are contained within it in blue. And I apologize to all for this being so long...

GREAT STORY!!! Bigg Up's to the cashier!

Question...
Do SOME or MOST people open carry in Saginaw? If so then that's the reason that there's no big deal about seeing an open firearm being carried around by regular civilians.

Very few folks open carry in Saginaw. An open carry dinner/picnic will draw about 20 people from the Flint/Saginaw/Owosso area and one or two from Lansing. So open carry in the Saginaw area is NOT being done by very many people.

The reason open carry all over Michigan is not a big deal is because folks open carried, got hassled, sued, won, and the media hoping to sensationalize open carry spread the word all over the State. And ordinary folks learned that open carry was not only legal and the police could be sued if they messed with an open carrier... they learned open carry is legal without a permit too.


I spoke against Firefighterchen because he told me that my FACTS were BS and how can he tell me ANYTHING about open carrying here in Michigan when he's not here to make a VALID opinion.

I NEVER deflected to offer information. I just won't banter back and fourth with someone who is trying to tell me about my experiences when they are only offering their opinion and as far as insults, I've been insulted since I first posted and I jab back when jabbed at with ANYBODY!

Sorry... but insults and ridicule, from either side no matter who starts it, are pointless and counterproductive. And folks who use insults and/or ridicule as an argumentative technique do not offer facts that would support their argument... generally, when someone resorts to insults and ridicule it means they have no facts. So no matter who said what to whom... facts, not opinion, is what will determine what the truth is.

This is the first time I've seen your links and I CAN'T argue against that because it's substantial and as far as the police supposedly laying off the harassment of people with open firearms... lets just say it's nothing more than a link! (something that they're SUPPOSED to do!) It STILL doesn't disregard the FACTS of MY EXPERIENCES and what I've seen and heard from others from teaching them as well as seeing actual situations as well as going through personal situations myself in regards to open carry.

I'm not saying that you, or others, have not had any negative experiences. What I, and others, are saying is just because you have had negative experiences or you have heard about others who have had negative experiences doesn't mean that is what is happening, or what will definitely happen, to everyone who open carries.

The reason I said that people have "freaked out" when they saw a open carried firearm is because I PERSONALLY went through that situation when I was open carrying before I obtained my CPL. Like I said... if people ARE NOT used to seeing REGULAR CIVILIANS with open firearms on the regular besides Police, Security Guards and Government Officials they will have a NEGATIVE REACTION to it.

And people not being used to seeing ordinary folks legally openly carrying is a very good reason for...... ordinary folks to legally open carry until seeing guns in public becomes as commonplace as seeing tattoos in public. But if folks are too scared to open carry because they heard they will be hassled... then the right to bear arms is lost and the only thing left is the government's permission to carry concealed. You do realize that a carry "permit" is the very infringement that "shall not be infringed" in the 2nd Amendment refers to because you must have the government's "permission" to do it?

Besides, people talk TOO MUCH and your business will be all over about what kind of firearm you're carrying. I'd rather catch em unknowingly! So in NO WAY is it BS because I've seen it AND gone through it! That's why I SUGGEST that people CONCEAL their firearms in order to avoid the negative attention because REALLY who has time for that kind of BS? I know I don't!

Well... if you don't have time for possible negative attention then... DON'T OPEN CARRY! Make that decision for yourself but kindly do not try to convince others to do as you say... not do as they might decide for themselves. Although I ardently defend open carry you don't see me bashing concealed carry and advocating folks should only open carry do you?

There was a situation a while back in Birmingham, MI in which a young man was harassed by the police when he was walking down the street with a 1942 military-issue semiautomatic rifle on his back JUST to exercise his right to open carry and was arrested unjustly. They said they arrested him because he wasn't cooperative and didn't show any ID when they asked him to but we all know that was the OVERPLAY for the UNDERLAY.
So, if they did that in Birmingham what do you think they'll do in Detroit? (The link pertaining to this article has been removed from the Detroit News free section. Look for yourself----> Link Removed) Here's another forum about it here----> Link Removed

Heres another link about the story---> Sean Combs Could Sue City After Winning Open Carry Gun Case | Video | TheBlaze.com

Yep... Sean got arrested... but are you aware that in Michigan you are NOT required to provide ID unless engaged in an activity that requires a license? And open carry in public, even of a rifle, in Michigan does NOT require a license.

So... Sean actually made great strides forward for the right to bear arms because HE DID NO WRONG, his innocence was upheld in court, and he has grounds for a civil suit.

Now... about a civil suit... it was open carriers bringing suit against police depts. that caused the State Police to issue that legal update #86 I mentioned. Without folks having the courage to actually force the issue open carry would still be thought of as illegal yet now nearly everyone in the State of Michigan is aware that it is legal. And the reason folks now know open carry is legal is because....... folks open carried.

And regardless of what some folks might think of, or have an opinion about, openly carrying a rifle in public... it is still "the right to bear arms". And when we start expecting a right to be subject to someone's opinion then we don't have a right.... we only have control according to opinions.


Until you come here and do it yourself and experience harassment OR NO harassment is when it can REALLY be substantiated from your OWN experience and I'm NOT taking ANYTHING away from or disregarding your posts.

And I'm not disparaging your personal experiences either. I am only saying that your experiences are not the norm anymore. And they are not the norm because some folks were not afraid to stand up and experience the negative reactions from the police.

And the open carriers won all the way around.

Times have changed. Being hassled for legally openly carrying in Michigan (I strongly suggest folks know the applicable laws before open carrying) has now become a rarity. But that wouldn't have happened if everyone took your advice to be afraid to actually do it.


There is NO FEAR of fitting in or standing up for my right to bear arms or peoples view of me. My concern is that one will have to thwart a possible violent confrontation from someone trying to STILL approach them and trying to take their firearm from them...

Again... if you are standing up for the concealed carry permit you are NOT standing up for the right to bear arms because a "permit" is the government requiring you to have "permission"... and "permission" is NOT a "right".

Please provide cites and/or links to incidents where open carriers were attacked by someone trying to take their firearm from them. And you can use the entire U.S., including Arizona where open carry has been the norm for decades, as your data base. Bear in mind the number of actual factual verifiable incidents must be balanced against the decades that open carry has been practiced.


MAINLY WOMEN and SENIOR CITIZENS as they are the easiest potential victims. So as an instructor I think that the correct thing to do is to guide people in a direction of less turbulence. My instructor taught me the same thing and it makes GOOD SENSE to me so why not carry the torch and lead people down a easy path? It's a matter of perspective really on that.

Which looks like an easy victim? An old fart doddering along pushing a grocery cart across the parking lot? or.. An old fart doddering along pushing a grocery cart across the parking lot with a Glock on his hip? Which one would YOU go mess with? Would you really take the chance of getting shot thinking you can take the old fart's gun? Or would you wait and attack the old fart without a gun?

In short, Saginaw is MUCH different from Detroit my friend! Open Carry IS a cool thing but not according to my experiences here in the city and I will stick by my guns and CONTINUE to SUGGEST that people at least HERE in the city to conceal to avoid the unnecessary negative attention from the police and civilians based on my personal experiences.

And as long as you suggest folks be afraid to open carry then folks will be afraid to open carry and you have done them a disservice by instilling in them your own fear.

And Detroit is coming around because of a few courageous folks (including an African American gentleman who routinely openly carries 2 pistols in plain sight as he rides his bicycle around Detroit's bad areas) who are willing to not let the fear of negative encounters with the police intimidate them.

And if you were to actually read the posts at the link below you would read about the experiences the guy on the bicycle has had... and how his (and other people's) encounters have changed the Detroit police's perspective about open carry:

Link Removed

I know there are more than 4000 posts.. yet anyone who wishes to discover the truth would take the time to do the research.


Once again.. BIG UP's to the cashier!!!
 
Ok, old guy here may need to remind folks of "MAD" mutually assured destruction. United States, armed to teeth with A bombs, Russia, armed to the teeth with A boom, both know they can expect total destruction if someone pulled the trigger. Works for personal protection in my book. Peace, Love, Colt 45.
 
well the guy in sgb's vid made a quick draw from a concealed weapon ..if he been oc'g the good guy would have seen it and made him disarm it so i would venture to say if you're going to oc you should have one bug concealed
just as a precaution measure.........
but me i'll stick to one gun concealed because that is what i feel comfortable doing at this point
 
well the guy in sgb's vid made a quick draw from a concealed weapon ..if he been oc'g the good guy would have seen it and made him disarm it so i would venture to say if you're going to oc you should have one bug concealed
just as a precaution measure.........
but me i'll stick to one gun concealed because that is what i feel comfortable doing at this point

I wouldn't use a television show as proof...wasn't that guy a hitman on the show? Wouldn't you assume a hit man would have a gun to begin with and disarm him? Also, the guy unloaded his firearm right after defending himself, should we do that as well? .... careful what you use as training material ee...

I do agree though, on a staged, stress free environment, that definitely was a fast draw with two hands.
 
i'm quick but dang that was QUICK! i'm still practicing my draw and fire at the range ..i like to draw do a double tap and reholster is what i did mostly at the range last time i went....practicing my one hand draw gun at hip and fire .......i done well my son and his girlfriend was peeking around to my booth watching me lolz i peeked around at their booth and caught them kissing .......lolz geesh but we had fun
 
One thing we must remember... TV is not real life. There is no way for us to know how many times the guy had to do the draw to get one good one for the camera. But in real life we get one chance and that's it.

Now Eagleeyes.... I'll not tell you, or anyone else, how to carry. I won't even suggest one method is better than another because neither OC nor CC is always better than the other... but sometimes one is more advantageous than the other due to circumstances... and sometimes both is better. What I will do is try to present enough information concerning OC and counter the misinformation about OC so you, and others, can better understand both methods. And I'm well aware that you cannot legally open carry in public in Florida so that isn't even an option for you.

A general comment not directed at you Eagleeyes... but as information for anyone following this conversation...

My wife and I got home about a half hour ago and I open carried (as I always do) in Saginaw at the Verizon store, Taco Bell, GNC store, and Battery's Plus. I saw many folks glance at my sidearm yet not one person crapped their pants... not one person ran away... not one person tried to attack me to take my sidearm... and no cops showed up to put me on the ground at gun point.

But we did get fast and courteous service everywhere.
 
Let me try and point a different light on the subject.

According to said logic, someone who had a child kill themselves with a firearm can say, "fact, all guns should be banned because kids kill themselves with them." Now, we all know the rarity of such occurrences and the fact guns are used 2.5 million times in self defense. This shows that guns should not be banned, because a family who lost their child was basing their opinion not on reality, but on an anomaly. Or does personal experience trump the big picture?

Facts are stronger when they have substantial evidence behind it. I can google open carry in Detroit and find hundreds of stories on open carriers doing just fine. Look at LAID: legally armed in Detroit.

I won't dismiss your personal experience. But at the same time, I know that it's not fact open carriers are getting negative attention on a grand scale. I don't need to physically be in Detroit to experience the weather or experience how open carriers are being responded to, not in this day and age of information sharing. The information is out there, saying, "because I said so," just doesn't cut it anymore.

Or, police officers should not be allowed to carry firearms:
Marysville police officer charged in daughter's death | HeraldNet.com - Local news
 
if you prove yourself not responsible then you shouldn't be carrying imo like that cop who left his loaded gun in the vehicle with minor children whilst he and his wife went to some meeting and the child fired the gun killing his sibling smmfh yes in some cases cops should have their guns taken away
 

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