Do you still conceal carry into posted "No Carry" businesses?

[Courtney.cj.chen]

So in mo- it might not work if someone comes on your property with a c firearm and you call LE stating that you would like them arrested/cited due to bringing the firearm on your premises. However - you can jump one step ahead and simply claim they're trespassing on your property- and happen to be carrying a firearm.

That's my understanding of it.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Being "asked" to leave is just politically correct bull ****. There is no asking, there is no question, there is you getting out or the cops being called. That's a demand.

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[pocketcarry]

My question! What does concealed mean? I am going to protect my family! Think about it.

 

[Firefighterchen]

My question! What does concealed mean? I am going to protect my family! Think about it.

Conceal = To hide.

What's there to think about? That you don't care about private property owners? That you spend money in anti gun establishments?

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[Rhino]

What you're missing, BikeNut is the ACT of trespassing is not the CRIME of trespassing (depending on state law). So I really don't give a whit what the property owners' desire or intent is in posting a sign, because it doesn't automatically invoke the power of the State to criminalize my conduct.

It does in states where the signs have force of law, so you'd better give a whit when present in those states, lest you get convicted of something like criminal trespass. That might even be a felony in some states (it's not in Ohio), which would deny your right to possess a firearm.

If the property owner cares very much about prohibiting such conduct, then they can learn the specific requirements involved in their State to invoke the trespass statute. In many cases a sign is not enough.

In other words you're saying breaking the law isn't illegal unless you get caught. That's pretty lame. If you enter a restaurant with a dog that isn't a service animal, is it a violation just because nobody sees it? Yes. The same holds true for no shirt, no shoes no service, and also for guns if they are so posted. Just because they don't see it doesn't mean you haven't violated the conditions for access to the property. You're still guilty of trespassing just like you're still guilty of speeding even when there's no cops around to catch you. However, in jurisdictions where signs have no force of law, carrying concealed into such an establishment would almost always be considered a simple trespass as opposed to a criminal trespass. Staying after being told to leave would be a criminal trespass. The legal difference between those two is enormous though. In most jurisdictions a simple trespass is a matter of civil, or tort, law rather than criminal law. The owner or operator would have to take legal action against you in such instances instead of law enforcement being involved, so it's very unlikely that a simple trespass would ever result in any significant, lasting legal consequences. But don't make the mistake of believing the fact that a simple trespass is a relatively simple matter when compared to a criminal trespass means it doesn't constitute a trespass at all, because it does.

 

[Bikenut]

My question! What does concealed mean? I am going to protect my family! Think about it.

What does concealed mean? It seems that to some the concept of concealed means it is Ok to sneak guns in where the property owner says they aren't allowed as long as they don't get caught at it.

It isn't about protecting your family. If you really want to protect your family then don't put them in jeopardy by going where guns have been banned. Shop somewhere else. If you did shop somewhere else you would not be putting your family in harm's way by taking them into a place the criminals know folks don't have guns.. you still get to buy stuff... and you didn't help the gun banner make a profit so he could open another store and ban guns there too.

Why help gun banners ban guns by spending money in their stores? All that does is support the very same folks who do NOT support you. Think about it.

 

[jer85]

If they have a no gun policy posted on their door. I don't spend money there.

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[BC1]

So I really don't give a whit what the property owners' desire or intent is in posting a sign, because it doesn't automatically invoke the power of the State to criminalize my conduct. If the property owner cares very much about prohibiting such conduct, then they can learn the specific requirements involved in their State to invoke the trespass statute. In many cases a sign is not enough.

Wrong temperament for someone carrying a gun. In NY a sign carries no weight of law. And it's possible people might not see it. But if I ask you personally not to carry you better disarm or scoot because the next action is physically removing you. And if you resist? Castle doctrine rules.

 

[Axeanda45]

What does concealed mean? It seems that to some the concept of concealed means it is Ok to sneak guns in where the property owner says they aren't allowed as long as they don't get caught at it.

It isn't about protecting your family. If you really want to protect your family then don't put them in jeopardy by going where guns have been banned. Shop somewhere else. If you did shop somewhere else you would not be putting your family in harm's way by taking them into a place the criminals know folks don't have guns.. you still get to buy stuff... and you didn't help the gun banner make a profit so he could open another store and ban guns there too.

Why help gun banners ban guns by spending money in their stores? All that does is support the very same folks who do NOT support you. Think about it.

Think about actually telling someone facts, NOT JUST YOUR OPINION....... Not everyone agrees with YOUR POSITION on this.... I for one do NOT consider "sneaking" as you put it to be wrong at all... In MY OPINION... the property owners that thinks they have the POWER to tell me I cannot have something in my pocket that in no way shape or form infringes on their RIGHTS is an IDIOT..... (no matter how many times someone like you states THEIR OPINION otherwise)

In other words, stop stating your OPINION as an established fact....... when in reality, it is ONLY your opinion...... (and this post is mine, so get over it)

I most certainly CAN protect my family everywhere I damn well please...... Do you have some magic power that renders everyone who doesnt follow someone elses RULES to not be able to fire a weapon in self defense???? You make some awfully big assertions in your post....

Just because YOU consider me spending MY EFFING MONEY WHERE I WISH TO SPEND IT to be wrong, who the eff are YOU?????

I can ask this of you... WHY HELP GUN BANNERS BAN GUNS???? because that is EXACTLY WHAT you are endorsing/promoting.....

 

[mappow]

Castle doctrine rules.[/QUOTE]
Only if you're threaten in your castle. If I am carrying concealed and you become the aggressor if you think I'm CC'ing. The line of liability is thin. Are you ready to commit? CC is CC. You gonna risk it all?

 

[Courtney.cj.chen]

I'm wondering IF and WHEN they're going to lift the OC restrictions in various STL towns- being that this passed several weeks ago (9/10/14). Other changes- minimum age for CC dropped from 21 to 19.

Mo. Legislators Pass New Gun Laws « CBS St. Louis

This is a good change- considering MO had to drop from a ridiculous 23 to 21 for minimum CC age- as of 2011.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_caf46da9-8ef3-5ab6-a7c6-2713d180bf24.html

I have no idea why the site blurred out the entire article except for the first sentence.

 

[BC1]

Only if you're threaten in your castle. If I am carrying concealed and you become the aggressor if you think I'm CC'ing. The line of liability is thin. Are you ready to commit? CC is CC. You gonna risk it all?

The line of liability is clear. If a property owner asks an armed person to disarm or leave and that person refuses the property owner may physically remove him. If, while being removed, the trespasser fights that is an escalation and may be met with equal force. If the trespasser escalates to reaching for his unwanted gun, all bets are off. In most states, and in NYS under Article 35 of the penal law, the trespasser may not claim defense of justification, thus self-defense is not allowed as a justification for the use of force by the unwanted person.

 

[jer85]

It all is a form of respect and what you want to do. If you want to go in somewhere that doesn't promote 2nd amend. Rights . then that is your business. I wouldn't and won't ,but that's me. If you go to someone's house and they don't want you to carry and they ask you to it is your duty as a legal gun owner and a responsible gun owner to abide by their wishes and go put it in your car or to leave . it is your choice. But "sneaking" it in is very childish and is the reason why so many people are using you type people as ammo for the push for gun bans. Grow up and live respecting people .

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[Bikenut]

What does concealed mean? It seems that to some the concept of concealed means it is Ok to sneak guns in where the property owner says they aren't allowed as long as they don't get caught at it.

It isn't about protecting your family. If you really want to protect your family then don't put them in jeopardy by going where guns have been banned. Shop somewhere else. If you did shop somewhere else you would not be putting your family in harm's way by taking them into a place the criminals know folks don't have guns.. you still get to buy stuff... and you didn't help the gun banner make a profit so he could open another store and ban guns there too.

Why help gun banners ban guns by spending money in their stores? All that does is support the very same folks who do NOT support you. Think about it.

Think about actually telling someone facts, NOT JUST YOUR OPINION....... Not everyone agrees with YOUR POSITION on this.... I for one do NOT consider "sneaking" as you put it to be wrong at all... In MY OPINION... the property owners that thinks they have the POWER to tell me I cannot have something in my pocket that in no way shape or form infringes on their RIGHTS is an IDIOT..... (no matter how many times someone like you states THEIR OPINION otherwise)

In other words, stop stating your OPINION as an established fact....... when in reality, it is ONLY your opinion...... (and this post is mine, so get over it)

I most certainly CAN protect my family everywhere I damn well please...... Do you have some magic power that renders everyone who doesnt follow someone elses RULES to not be able to fire a weapon in self defense???? You make some awfully big assertions in your post....

Just because YOU consider me spending MY EFFING MONEY WHERE I WISH TO SPEND IT to be wrong, who the eff are YOU?????

I can ask this of you... WHY HELP GUN BANNERS BAN GUNS???? because that is EXACTLY WHAT you are endorsing/promoting.....

Here is a fact...

When a businessman has a no guns rule he isn't banning guns but is saying people who carry guns do not have his permission to be on/in his property. Get the distinction there? He hasn't banned guns... he has banned the people who carry guns. The businessman has stated that he doesn't want the people, the person, the individual, who carries a gun on/in his store. He is saying that as long as you are carrying a gun he doesn't want your body there, he doesn't want your clothes there, he doesn't want what you have hidden in your clothes there, he doesn't want your money, he doesn't want your words (free speech) there, he doesn't want your thoughts there, he doesn't want your farts there... in short... as long as you are carrying a gun he doesn't want YOU there.

It isn't about your right to bear arms or your right to defend yourself and/or your family.... it is only about the property owner having the right to deny YOU entry if you are carrying a gun (or not wearing a shirt, or not wearing shoes... or put another way... no shoes, no shirt, bring a gun, no service).

And if you do go in against the property owner's no guns rule with a gun hidden in your pocket then you are.......... sneaking.... in the item that the property owner has said you are not allowed to bring in. Doesn't matter whether YOU don't think it is ... sneaking....

Link Removed

sneak (sniːk)
vb
1. (intr; often foll by along, off, in, etc) to move furtively
2. (intr) to behave in a cowardly or underhand manner
3. (tr) to bring, take, or put stealthily
Bold added by me for emphasis

And if you think that what I just said isn't fact then try walking into a business that has a no guns rule and tell the manager that his rule is BS and you are carrying a gun anyway and there isn't anything he can do about it because you have the right to defend your family no matter where you are... and see what happens next. Oh wait... you won't be upfront with any business that has a no guns rule you will just................... sneak............... your gun in and spend your money supporting the business that has a no guns rule. Yeah.. that makes sense.... NOT.

By the way... some food for thought.... for those folks who will put their gun in the car, or leave it home, and still shop at a business that has a no guns rule.... not only are you financially supporting someone who doesn't support the right to bear arms but, when you made the decision to leave your gun out and take your family into that business anyway it would be YOU who made the decision to potentially put your family in harm's way.

 

[apvbguy]

The line of liability is clear. If a property owner asks an armed person to disarm or leave and that person refuses the property owner may physically remove him.

this could be what the law is in NY but it certainly is not the law elsewhere. try and forcibly remove a trespasser like you would in FLA would get you into a heap of trouble with the law, both criminally and civilly

 

[BC1]

this could be what the law is in NY but it certainly is not the law elsewhere. try and forcibly remove a trespasser like you would in FLA would get you into a heap of trouble with the law, both criminally and civilly

Are you saying a bouncer can't physically remove a person from a privately owned bar? Seen it in FL a number of times. I lived in W. Palm during the winter up until this past year. My wife is from W. Palm Beach. Never heard such a thing. Where in FL law is a trespasser protected? What I find in FL law says you're completely wrong.
.
776.031 Use or threatened use of force in defense of property.—
(1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.
.
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use or threatened use of force.—
(1) A person who uses or threatens to use force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in such conduct and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use or threatened use of such force by the person, personal representative, or heirs of the person against whom the force was used or threatened, unless the person against whom force was used or threatened is a law enforcement officer
.
I can remember a party at my brother-in-law's house in W. Palm where one of the younger crowd was drunk and rowdy. He asked this guy to leave several times. Eventually he reached for his arm to assist him in leaving when the guy took a half-hearted swing at him. My B-I-L thumped this guy to the ground so fast I got whiplash. Dragged him outside and called police who promptly arrested the guy on charges relating to disorderly conduct, trespass and public intoxication. There were several charges if I remember right.
.
I would challenge any person in any state to post a law which prevents a property owner from using force to eject a trespasser.

 

[Firefighterchen]

this could be what the law is in NY but it certainly is not the law elsewhere. try and forcibly remove a trespasser like you would in FLA would get you into a heap of trouble with the law, both criminally and civilly

What would you be charged with?

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[kelcarry]

Said it more than once. You wanna break the law, you are now on the same side of the law that you seemingly are trying to protect yourself from. You can reply all you want--if it makes you feel better to ridicule and rail against this reply, have had it but it still does not change a darn thing. I suppose you will also tell me that you know how to hold your liquor and you can do that also, when it comes to CC in bars and restaurants that post.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Said it more than once. You wanna break the law, you are now on the same side of the law that you seemingly are trying to protect yourself from. You can reply all you want--if it makes you feel better to ridicule and rail against this reply, have had it but it still does not change a darn thing. I suppose you will also tell me that you know how to hold your liquor and you can do that also, when it comes to CC in bars and restaurants that post.

Who are you replying to?

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[apvbguy]

What would you be charged with?

assault, the mere act of trespassing is a misdemeanor, what that lunatic described is him assaulting someone