Dissarmed by officer upon traffic stop ? Wilson NC. WTF ?

[BuddhaKat]

I call 911 and report that I saw you purchase a baggie of white powder for cash, put the baggie in your car and walk into Wal Mart. So you won't mind if the officer waits for you to come out of Wal Mart, detains you, frisks you and searches your car, right? After all, you've done nothing wrong and you will go your way none worse for wear, right?

We have laws that define and protect us from unreasonable searches and seizures. Why is it too much to expect police officers to follow those laws and to hold them accountable when they don't?

So somebody makes a likely drug buy and a thoughtful, concerned citizen witnesses it and calls it in as suspicious activity and you think the cops should handle it how? Disregard it because the tip came from a civilian and they didn't personally witness the transaction? Maybe they should go to a judge and ask for a warrant to search the perp?

We're supposed to be protected against unreasonable searches, so a warrant should be required for every search then, eh? I think it's reasonable for the police to start an investigation and ask some questions. Should the 'person of interest' decline to speak and invoke the 5th, fair enough. He is required by law to provide ID, the cops are free to run his info. Say he comes back with a rap sheet as long as your arm full of drug sales charges & convictions. Technically, they still might not have enough probable cause to search, but they sure as heck can walk a drug sniffing dog by him. If the dog alerts, well, the bad guy gets busted, as he should be.

Now, say the guy on the receiving end of the bag of white powder was me. I come out of Walmart and walk straight into two cops. They stop me, ask for ID, which I provide along with my CCW. I declare my weapon at that time and they promptly relieve me of it. The gun is probably going to earn me a shiny new pair of silver bracelets right on the spot. The cop tells me they think I have a baggie full of dope on me and ask me if I have anything to confess. I cooperate fully and tell them that I met my next door neighbor and she returning the cup of flour she borrowed from my wife last week. It's in my right front coat pocket and they're welcome to remove it and check for themselves. They check it and discover that it doesn't have the telltale scent of cocaine, rather smells exactly like flour. This infuriates one of them and he takes a sample and does a chemical test right on the spot, which is negative. The cops apologize for the inconvenience, un-cuff me and give me my (unloaded) gun back. I thank them for acting fast to stop a potential drug dealer from poisoning our society and let them know I'd rather give up a few minutes of my time in the fight against drugs than have a guy who likely had a bag full of drugs get away. I wasn't harmed.

We don't live in a perfect society. We have a 2nd amendment to act as a hedge against a tyrannical government and for our self defense. We have a Constitution that defines the boundaries between the government and We The People. We all get that. I carry a gun because I don't feel entirely safe whilst out and about. It gives me a slightly higher chance of prevailing should I ever be in a fight for my life. I can't say that I'm 100% sure I won't ever have to deal with a tyrannical government, but I'm pretty comfortable things are well enough on that front for now., Frankly, if I could be comfortable I'll never have to worry about another 'bad guy' wanting to harm or rob me, I'd quit carrying my gun around. But we'll never live long enough to see that society. That means we're stuck walking around right next to somebody that just might be the next psycho killer. We're also stuck with needing cops. Are they perfect? Not by a long shot, just like you and I. But I do think most of them are good people that want to uphold the law and do their part in making society safer for all of us. Sure, there's a few bad apples, but the overwhelming majority are a bunch of great people that are doing a job that I certainly don't have the nards to do. For that, if I get inconvenienced a little bit, it's a small price to pay. The few times I've had a 'professional' reason to interact with a cop, I've never had a problem. I don't give them a ration of ****** and I DON't tell them how the law works or how special I am, or even how miserable I can make their lives. All you get when you cop an attitude is an attitude back. cooler heads prevail.

 

[dc1263]

The scenarios are endless, but are they justified?

We are both shopping for groceries in the food lion when your kid steals my kids lollypop, I approach you about your kids behavior, and you dont take to kindly of it, I dont like the attitude you take so I report you to the manager and say I saw you put 10 lbs of roast beef in your pocketbook, manager calls cops and as you exit the store you are detained for shoplifting,, Well of course the accusation is false (but they dont know that, they've got MY Word) So during the time it takes to investigate you, your other kid is standing on the curb alone, in the rain, crying, beacause now you are 30 mins late picking her up from up band practice, I'm sitting in my car, looking on at distance and getting big giant kick out of the whole thing,,,

I go into the men’s room at a local eatery and I see you standing there with a glasseen envelope full of white powder in your hand , I run to the nearest flat foot I can find an say Officer! Officer! there is a man snorting cocaine in the men’s room go see,, he investigates puts you up on the wall and proceeds to empty your pockets he finds and empty envelope of what he beleives to be illegal drugs but is in fact a small packet of goody’s headache powder,,,

I’m a landscaper planting tulips in your neighbors front yard when I suddenly here a woman scream, I stop working and listen closely, there it is again, I call the police tell them "I think" there is a woman being raped / assaulted inside a home and give them your address, cops investigate and find you at home getting freaky with your wife on her lunchbreak and boy is she a screamer,,,

Your wife is getting ready to attend an office party where she works while you stay home stay home with the kids, she tells you she’ll be home around 10 pm, bout 9:30 rolls around and you get a call from your wife saying she had a little too much to drink and then spilled her cocktail on her dress so she needs for you to come and pick her up, so you the pull the kids out of bed wrap them in blankets and chuck them in the car then head on over to rescue your wife , she says just pull to the front and she will meet you out side, you pull up to the curb, an attractive lady whose a little bit tipsy swaggers on over to your car and hops in, you pull away, I’m parked nearby and observe this activity I call the police I tell them I just saw a man in a car pickup a prostitute and I give them you license plate#, You get pulled over with your wife and kids in the car and the cops smells alcohol,,,

I’m the UPS guy, I’m delivering a package I walk up to your house and smell smoke, I am not a smoke expert so I don’t know if its hickory or mesquite, I don’t know if your a roasting a pig or your grandpa is puffing on his favorite pipe full of Captain Black Vanilla Blend, , I call the police in tell them I think I smell marijuana smoke coming from the house and give them your address,,,,

I am walking my dog down the street when you pass by in your fancy (more than I can afford) car , hmmm seems to me that guy is going faster than the speed limit,,,, (although I have no way of telling),,, “I don’t like it when people in fancy cars drive fast through my neighborhood”, So I call in a reckless driver speeding down the road, almost ran me and my dog over, cops search the neighborhood find you and pull you for reckless driving,,, ???


Which is more credible,,, my word or yours ???

There is and old episode of The Andy Griffith Show : “Quiet Sam”

Great episode, I think it is relevant within this topic…

Stranger pulls into Mayberry to gather some supplies, Barney doesn’t know anything about this guy, so he immediately gets suspicious and starts asking around, he finds that along with a supply of groceries, the stranger also buys a supply of bandages,,, Barney tries to convince Andy the he believes the guy has “someone with a gunshot wound” up at his place , Andy indicates to Barney, That there is “nothing illegal about buying bandages”, Barney persists and talks Andy into taking a ride up to the strangers house “just to look around”,,, When they arrive they find the stranger there on his tractor plowing / planting his field, Barney is again suspicious because it is after dark and “nobody works in the dark unless they are trying to hide their activities”, Andy indicates that there is “nothing illegal about working in the fields after dark” and that lots of farmers work in the fields after dark,,, work needs to be done, it’s a lot cooler in the evening, crops need planting, and looks like its about to rain, Barney’s suspicion raises the question,,, “Yeah, but what’s he planting” Andy thinks for a moment and then say’s “Well, this time of year, could be corn? or collards?, sweet potato? Then Barney voices in and says, “AND / OR”? Then Andy: “AND OR WHAT”? Barney: And Or Marijuana,,,, And it goes on,

The TV version is all chopped up, So you need to have the boxed set or maybe the full episode can be found on youtube or TV land , don’t know…

What makes me ( the caller ) an expert on which if any statutes or laws are being violated?

Which is more credible,,, my word or yours ???

Cops are supposed to enforce the rules,,, not make them up along the way,

They are held to a higher standard because of their position,

In court is an officers word is more credible than mine ???

Are we really presumed innocent until suspicion or cause is acquired to indicate otherwise???

Or presumed guilty and then have to prove our way back up to innocent.

 

[Flanmedic51]

If NavyLCDR is exhibitting extremism, it must be the least extreme form of extremism on the scale. You know, the kind of extremism that is not extreme at all. Every scale has a zero point. I haven't seen the extremism needle so much as twitch from my readings of Navy's posts.

Read again then. He writes of laws out there that infringe our constitutional rights when they only protect us from...well...each other. I'm this case, motor vehicle laws are not written to purposely infringe our rights just to piss us off, its to provide public saftey to insure we operate without killing each other. But Navy insists on it becomming a rights issue and it just simply is not. AND just because someone gets pulled over for a report of poor operation, doesn't mean they always are detained or given a bad time by the LEO...unless you give them a reason.

 

[dc1263]

RE : doesn't mean they always are detained or given a bad time by the LEO...unless you give them a reason.

Or unless they (LEO) just makeup their own reason as they go ?

 

[Flanmedic51]

RE : doesn't mean they always are detained or given a bad time by the LEO...unless you give them a reason.

Or unless they (LEO) just makeup their own reason as they go ?

A gun changes the equation...pretty much always.

 

[NavyLCDR]

So, you are sitting in a restaurant at 6:30pm eating dinner, open carrying in Nevada (or any other open carry without a license state), and a cop walks in. "Sir, I need to see some ID, please, to check and make sure you are not a person prohibited from carrying firearms and I also need to take your gun for a couple minutes both for my safety and to run the serial number and check to make sure it is not a stolen gun. I hope you don't mind. I must tell you that if you do not comply I will be requried to arrest you under suspicion of illegally carrying a firearm until we can verify that you are not prohibited".

Everything's OK with that, right? No problems there? Police just doing their jobs, right, making sure felons or other prohibited persons are not carrying a gun? After all a gun changes the equation pretty much always, right?

Now, how about if the police officer does exactly the same thing above but he begins it all by saying, "We got a 911 call that there was a guy here waving a gun around about to shoot up the place. Sir, I need to see some ID please....."

Change in circumstances because of one 911 call with no observable evidence to indicate it is a true report?

Flanmedic51, BuddhaKat you guys should have no problems with either one of those scenarios, right?

 

[dc1263]

RE : A gun changes the equation...pretty much always.

In my original situation I informed the officer (as required by NC law) that I had a concealed handgun in my possession,,, My first compliance,,, He took my word on what / where, Then he disarmed me,,,, and never checked / frisked for any other additional weapons, What does that say? Either he felt / knew by my compliance and demeanor that I was being truthful with him and then trusted me, or he was one dumb cop... If I were a desperate criminal, I am certain he dropped his ball,,,

And then unlike the other posts referencing being disarmed by cops and the cop returning the Un-loaded weapon.

He returned my "loaded" handgun to me, because he couldn't remove it from the holster to secure it?

He did not hand it to me directly though, he set in on the trunk lid,

Knowing that I could have easily removed it from its holster "Loaded"

Again, What does that say?

 

[NavyLCDR]

RE : A gun changes the equation...pretty much always.

In my original situation I informed the officer (as required by NC law) that I had a concealed handgun in my possession,,, My first compliance,,, He took my word on what / where, Then he disarmed me,,,, and never checked / frisked for any other additional weapons, What does that say? Either he felt / knew by my compliance and demeanor that I was being truthful with him and then trusted me, or he was one dumb cop... If I were a desperate criminal, I am certain he dropped his ball,,,

And then unlike the other posts referencing being disarmed by cops and the cop returning the Un-loaded weapon.

He returned my "loaded" handgun to me, because he couldn't remove it from the holster to secure it?

He did not hand it to me directly though, he set in on the trunk lid,

Knowing that I could have easily removed it from its holster "Loaded"

Again, What does that say?

It says he either had no concern for his own safety and was doing it for no reason other than he could or that he was too ignorant to know how to properly handle your gun for his safety.

 

[Flanmedic51]

RE : A gun changes the equation...pretty much always.

In my original situation I informed the officer (as required by NC law) that I had a concealed handgun in my possession,,, My first compliance,,, He took my word on what / where, Then he disarmed me,,,, and never checked / frisked for any other additional weapons, What does that say? Either he felt / knew by my compliance and demeanor that I was being truthful with him and then trusted me, or he was one dumb cop... If I were a desperate criminal, I am certain he dropped his ball,,,

And then unlike the other posts referencing being disarmed by cops and the cop returning the Un-loaded weapon.

He returned my "loaded" handgun to me, because he couldn't remove it from the holster to secure it?

He did not hand it to me directly though, he set in on the trunk lid,

Knowing that I could have easily removed it from its holster "Loaded"

Again, What does that say?

It says you're bothered by this waaay more than you should. Have you ever called the department and asked what their policies are in regards to your situation?

 

[Firefighterchen]

If NavyLCDR is exhibitting extremism, it must be the least extreme form of extremism on the scale. You know, the kind of extremism that is not extreme at all. Every scale has a zero point. I haven't seen the extremism needle so much as twitch from my readings of Navy's posts.

Constitutionalist are terrorists remember? Oh and anyone who disagrees is an extremist as well. We should just tear up that old piece of paper and rewrite our laws, to protect ourselves from ourselves...then maybe we should make robots to protect us from ourselves...didn't I see this in a movie before...

 

[dc1263]

It says you're bothered by this waaay more than you should. Have you ever called the department and asked what their policies are in regards to your situation?

No, I have not as of yet, However I do intend to, Not for any disciplinary action but just so I have a better understanding,,,

And maybe I am a little bothered, See with the work I do, I act as an auditor, I am subject to internal audits within my company, external audits by the companies we do business with / for and third party ISO audits for compliance within industry standards, I along with another co-worker develop and write our procedures and review them for compliance to the industry standard as well as employee adherence / compliance, and overall safety, If employees are not following the procedures properly, they need to be trained, if the procedure does not fit the assignment then it needs to reviewed / changed, even though the procedures are very specific each employee may have their own interpretation,

So it is my observation:

If he followed the procedure properly, It is in need of serious review / rewrite.

If he didn't follow the procedure properly, he is in need of additional training.

A non compliance could be extremely costly, except in my business it wont cost me my life,

 

[billwot]

Also, something to consider.... it could be quite possible that before he even stopped you he could have obtained the registered owner's name and address from your license plates, and then using that information determined if the registered owner possessed a CCW permit. Which again, provides no legal basis, by itself, to stop (detain) you nor to disarm you.

.

Its more than a possibility, its almost a certainty. In NC, your CC permit is tied to your driver's license, and the tag # for any vehicle registered to you. When a LEO calls in your plate number, they will automatically be advised that the owner of that vehicle is a CC permit holder.

And when you are first issued a permit, your permit # will be he same as the number on your DL at that time.

 

[BuddhaKat]

So, you are sitting in a restaurant at 6:30pm eating dinner, open carrying in Nevada (or any other open carry without a license state), and a cop walks in. "Sir, I need to see some ID, please, to check and make sure you are not a person prohibited from carrying firearms and I also need to take your gun for a couple minutes both for my safety and to run the serial number and check to make sure it is not a stolen gun. I hope you don't mind. I must tell you that if you do not comply I will be requried to arrest you under suspicion of illegally carrying a firearm until we can verify that you are not prohibited".

Everything's OK with that, right? No problems there? Police just doing their jobs, right, making sure felons or other prohibited persons are not carrying a gun? After all a gun changes the equation pretty much always, right?

Now, how about if the police officer does exactly the same thing above but he begins it all by saying, "We got a 911 call that there was a guy here waving a gun around about to shoot up the place. Sir, I need to see some ID please....."

Change in circumstances because of one 911 call with no observable evidence to indicate it is a true report?

Flanmedic51, BuddhaKat you guys should have no problems with either one of those scenarios, right?

Apples and oranges my friend. The difference being, in the first scenario there is no probable cause. This is a cop either making a mistake, or one that is breaking the law. In scenario 1, education is warranted. Not by you. Your option is to talk rationally and if that doesn't work, file a complaint. Scenario 2, he's got all the probable cause he needs and I would think it would be irresponsible for him not to investigate. As soon as the cop makes contact he has to take control of the situation and if that means disarming you while that process runs its course, I support it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Apples and oranges my friend. The difference being, in the first scenario there is no probable cause. This is a cop either making a mistake, or one that is breaking the law. In scenario 1, education is warranted. Not by you. Your option is to talk rationally and if that doesn't work, file a complaint. Scenario 2, he's got all the probable cause he needs and I would think it would be irresponsible for him not to investigate. As soon as the cop makes contact he has to take control of the situation and if that means disarming you while that process runs its course, I support it.

So, if I called 911 and said that my next door neighbor BuddhaKat came over to my yard and threatened me with a gun because my dog crapped in his yard and then returned to his house with the gun, it would be perfectly acceptable for police to search your home looking for the gun I said you possessed and threatened me with? And if you said no, then my call would be sufficient probable cause for a judge to issue a search warrant for your house, right? Especially if they looked you up and saw you had a concealed weapons permit lending more credibility that you actually owned a gun? And if they found a gun in your house, then what?

Or what if I call 911 and say you threatened me with a gun from your vehicle due to road rage and the police follow you to your house? Now they have probable cause to search your house when you leave the vehicle I reported and go inside, right?

 

[Flanmedic51]

It says you're bothered by this waaay more than you should. Have you ever called the department and asked what their policies are in regards to your situation?

No, I have not as of yet, However I do intend to, Not for any disciplinary action but just so I have a better understanding,,,

And maybe I am a little bothered, See with the work I do, I act as an auditor, I am subject to internal audits within my company, external audits by the companies we do business with / for and third party ISO audits for compliance within industry standards, I along with another co-worker develop and write our procedures and review them for compliance to the industry standard as well as employee adherence / compliance, and overall safety, If employees are not following the procedures properly, they need to be trained, if the procedure does not fit the assignment then it needs to reviewed / changed, even though the procedures are very specific each employee may have their own interpretation,

So it is my observation:

If he followed the procedure properly, It is in need of serious review / rewrite.

If he didn't follow the procedure properly, he is in need of additional training.

A non compliance could be extremely costly, except in my business it wont cost me my life,

Well, nothing seemed irrational or out of place as you have described it. However if you have the feeling that something was amiss then you certainly should look into it.

 

[Flanmedic51]

Apples and oranges my friend. The difference being, in the first scenario there is no probable cause. This is a cop either making a mistake, or one that is breaking the law. In scenario 1, education is warranted. Not by you. Your option is to talk rationally and if that doesn't work, file a complaint. Scenario 2, he's got all the probable cause he needs and I would think it would be irresponsible for him not to investigate. As soon as the cop makes contact he has to take control of the situation and if that means disarming you while that process runs its course, I support it.

So, if I called 911 and said that my next door neighbor BuddhaKat came over to my yard and threatened me with a gun because my dog crapped in his yard and then into his house with the gun, it would be perfectly acceptable for police to search your home looking for the gun I said you possessed and threatened me with? And if you said no, then my call would be sufficient probable cause for a judge to issue a search warrant for your house, right? And if they found a gun in your house, then what?

Its hard to answer to your scenarios because there are a million variables that can be involved here. Its all based on investigative process and PC.

 

[dc1263]

Its more than a possibility, its almost a certainty. In NC, your CC permit is tied to your driver's license, and the tag # for any vehicle registered to you. When a LEO calls in your plate number, they will automatically be advised that the owner of that vehicle is a CC permit holder.

And when you are first issued a permit, your permit # will be he same as the number on your DL at that time.

My numbers do match, The JoCo Sheriff Office informed me of that when the issued it to me.

So maybe it would be better for cop / citizen relations if in knowing that information the officer could approach with something like:

"Hello Mr. Cxxxx, I understand you hold a Permit to CCW ? Yes Sir I do,

Do you have a weapon on you at this time? Yes Sir I do,

Do you have your permit with you? Yes Sir I do,

Then next,,, License and Reg, Please step out of the vehicle, Please remain in the vehicle... Whatever...

 

[USN2Pulpit]

Link Removed

Wow...this is a long conversation. Perhaps the principals should take it to PM. All these different "what if" scenarios are confusing the issues!

But I jest...

 

[dc1263]

Link Removed

Wow...this is a long conversation. Perhaps the principals should take it to PM. All these different "what if" scenarios are confusing the issues!

But I jest...

Yea, I'm surprised it has gone on also.

RE : All these different "what if" scenarios are confusing the issues!

REF: Does a single report of the instance by a civilian rise to the level of Reasonable Suspicion if the responding officer has no other evidence that anything occurred? I can call 911 and report anything, does that give a police officer the Reasonable Suspicion required to stop and detain someone based on a single phone call?

I don't think so...

 

[billwot]

My numbers do match, The JoCo Sheriff Office informed me of that when the issued it to me.

So maybe it would be better for cop / citizen relations if in knowing that information the officer could approach with something like:

"Hello Mr. Cxxxx, I understand you hold a Permit to CCW ? Yes Sir I do,

Do you have a weapon on you at this time? Yes Sir I do,

Do you have your permit with you? Yes Sir I do,

Then next,,, License and Reg, Please step out of the vehicle, Please remain in the vehicle... Whatever...

Yeah, that sounds like a pretty reasonable scenario to me. But as I'm sure you know, NC is a "must notify" state, so the burden is on the permit holder to initiate the conversation if he is carrying at the time!

BTW as I learned when I renewed my DL, my DL # and my CC permit no longer have matching #s. I renewed my CC in July, and the new permit had the same # as the original. Then I renewed my DL in December, and my new DL has a different #