Defense loads and the law


The fact remains that no clear thinking juror in a civil case will allow something like choice of caliber to hold a person liable in a self defense shooting. If I am forced to defend myself against someone who either attacked me or broke into my home, regardless of what caliber I use to shoot the attacker, I would simply argue that I am not liable for what happens to the perp while in the commission of a crime; if he is breaking the law, then others should not be held liable for whatever happens to him during the commission of the crime. Simply put, if he did not want to get shot or injured, he should not have tried attacking me or breaking into my home. Getting shot, whether it's by a .22 caliber pistol or by a .50 caliber rifle, is one of the dangers of the job; if you lead a life of crime, then you should be constantly aware of your intended victims using whatever means available to prevent it.
What is clear thinking to you or where you live may not be clear thinking else where. A jury in your home town if you had no civil suit immunity in IN would most likely not render a judgment against you. However a jury in a large metropolitan area of NC or OH might.
Also, you're entitled to your opinion on what is or is not rational, but I find it quite humorous that of everything I've written on this thread thus far, my last comment where I said that we hope for the best but are prepared for the worst, was the only comment I've written that you believe has been rational. Sir, (if you're a ma'am, then I apologize) everything I have said thus far has been quite rational from the standpoint of reasonable people; only some crooked lawyer looking to make a quick buck would find your arguments in favor of civil liability for an "inappropriate" caliber to be rational.
Bingo! Have you ever noticed that in some areas there are more attorneys than LEOs? I know this is the case for Las Vegas NV. The rational or reasonable person standard varies greatly from State to State and sometimes within the same State. In some areas, the inmates run the asylum or sit on the bench and get placed on a jury.
 

I find it interesting that in the challenge I gave you to present documentation of civil liability related to caliber, the best you could do was state that there was one related to reloads with no other details.

The bottom line in this, with all of your pontification on the subject, you have failed to produce any evidence that this is anything other than your opinion. You have not presented any test cases related to the subject, other than the reload case. I would assume that rather than the caliber being an issue in the reload case, it was more an issue of the load being prepared "hotter" than a similar factory load.

When you can present legitimate cases in which civil liability was proved based on the use of a caliber in the face of justifiable use of deadly force, then I think we can continue the discussion.

In the absence of that evidence, as I stated before, your points are moot and merely speculation.

We live in the real world, and in the real world with the proper mindset, we must all come to the conclusion that "it can happen to us." However, this relates to the responsibilities and consequences of concealed carry, presentation, and ultimate use of a firearm. I do not focus on what could happen as it relates to civil liability, but what could happen to my family if I am not of the proper mindset and training. I risk the consequences, because I believe it to be the best course of action for my protection and that of my loved ones. I do not only carry in Florida, but when out of state, I submit to the laws of that state, just as I do in my home state.

On a personal note, as someone who is highly trained in the use of firearms, I have never seen the need, or had the desire to carry anything above .45. I am more concerned with the placement of my shots regardless of the type of ammo I carry. I do not carry any type of fancy defensive load. I also have never had the desire or intention to reload ammunition.
 
Speculation is just that speculation! The best thing that anyone can do is learn the laws of their state and abide by them. In my state of SC I don't have to worry about caliber, type of round or reloads. The only firearm requirement is it has to be under 12" long. Under our Castle law I can stand my ground and LE can't arrest, confiscate my weapon or ammo as long as it appears I was protecting myself, others or property. I know that as long as I was not charged or win in court then I can't be sued. If by some chance some activist judge decides to let a libel suit go forward then I have nothing to worry about. Our Castle Doctrine states that SC has to pick up my attorneys fees and pay any and all judgments handed down. Personally I don't carry reloads, however if by chance I have reloads in my firearm I won't hesitate to use it if I need to.
 
I find it interesting that in the challenge I gave you to present documentation of civil liability related to caliber, the best you could do was state that there was one related to reloads with no other details.
That is because to the best to my knowledge it has not happened yet. When dealing with civil liability you deal with what you could be sued for. Self defense incidents among civilians are fortunately few and far between. We may never have a test case of someone using a large bore handgun in self defense in our lifetime in a State that has no civil suit immunity.

There is a legal authority and a NC CHP instructor that agrees with me on the subject. Link Removed

I have to strongly disagree with your view. All CCH Instructors in NC have to pass the Course on Legal Issues of Lethal Force. We took the class at the NC Justice Academy, and L. Reese Trimmer, our instructor was the Lead Attorney in the Justice Departments Lethal Force Division. He suggested that hand loads was of little concern if you were justified in using deadly force, but their is more to the story.

Once you are cleared, and no charges filed because you were within your rights to use deadly force, your problems are no where near being over.
He said the odds are 90% or better that you will end up in Civil Court as a Defendant in a wrongful death suit. Mr Trimmers main job with the Justice Department was defending Law Enforcement Officers that were sued after they were cleared by Internal Affairs. As he put it, why would you not try to obtain a huge settlement, when you have a waiting line of Attorneys willing to take your case with NO money out of your pocket.

Mr. Trimmer also has been called in as a Professional Witness in many wrongful death cases involving civilians. He said that a "good" snake oil attorney can and will pick up on the smallest bit of information, no matter how inaccurate,to make the law abiding Defendant look like a Rambo type that spends every waking hour studying new and nastier ways to take someones life.

This is from a legal authority on the subject in a State that has no civil suit immunity.

Here is where the hand load scenario was brought up, when a student asked him if he could recall for the class an actual event that he witnessed in court. He never blinked, and asked for a show of hands of those that carry hand loads in their concealed carry firearms. Roughly half of the class raised their hands. Mr Trimmer then launched into a tirade, calling us "blood thirsty, cold blooded killers! Factory ammunition just does not satisfy your desire to main and destroy a fellow human. Not only did you take his life, you did it with ammunition made by your own hands so you can inflict the worst possible pain and suffering, instead of using over the counter ammo that is designed to wound. The fact is you designed and made your own ammunition, just to make sure there was no way a Doctor could save his life!"
The same thing can be applied to using a caliber that is not mainstream for personal protection.

It got very quite in that room. Finally someone asked Mr. Trimmer who would believe such nonsense. The only response was "A jury that knows no better".

Again, the case of juries being unpredictible or the snake oil attorney successfully selling their argument.
When asked if he debunked that theory when he was on the stand, he said "sure, but it's hard to convince someone that the lawyers attack was total BS. If you don't carry hand loads, the attorney loses that line of attack. It's your butt on the line, and my advice to you is to think ahead."

He ended that portion of the class with some excellent advice. His suggestion was to find out what brand of ammo your local Law Enforcement carries, and use that. If you find out what your city police, sheriff's department or State Troopers carry, odds are one of those loads will work for those that carry semi-auto carry guns. Another suggestion was any ammo that was designed for Personal defense, since they are designed to stay in the body.

I am not an attorney yet a legal authority in the State of NC, lead defense attorney for the State's use of lethal force, does concur with my opinion on the subject. We only have test cases for handloads that I know about.

I can find nothing wrong with his logic. I also agree that odds are you will be dragged into civil court, and YOU have to pay for your attorney. Every line of attack you take away from the prosecuting attorney is time saved in the trial. Even a short trial will financially ruin the average person paying his attorney fees. If your found guilty in civil court, you can tack the settlement to your legal fees, and that would be enough to drain the pockets of all but the ultra wealthy.
If you use a mainstream self defense caliber or the same thing your local LEOs use, you have removed a bit of information the plaintiff can use against you to sway the jury. That has been and always is my rationale for using mainstream calibers, preferrably the same ammunition LEOs in the area use. If you are in a State that has civil suit immunity then this is not an issue as I have stated before.
 
Speculation is just that speculation! The best thing that anyone can do is learn the laws of their state and abide by them. In my state of SC I don't have to worry about caliber, type of round or reloads. The only firearm requirement is it has to be under 12" long. Under our Castle law I can stand my ground and LE can't arrest, confiscate my weapon or ammo as long as it appears I was protecting myself, others or property. I know that as long as I was not charged or win in court then I can't be sued. If by some chance some activist judge decides to let a libel suit go forward then I have nothing to worry about. Our Castle Doctrine states that SC has to pick up my attorneys fees and pay any and all judgments handed down. Personally I don't carry reloads, however if by chance I have reloads in my firearm I won't hesitate to use it if I need to.
When you consult an attorney for legal advice, they research the appropriate laws and case law pertaining to the subject and render an opinion which involves some speculation on their part. In SC, you do have a very good stand your ground law so it is a moot point as long as you stay in SC. However, go north to NC and you are in for a rude awakening per an attorney with NC DOJ who teaches the legal portion of the NC CHP instructor class. In Nevada, I am only immune to civil suits in defense of my domicile. It is on the list of things to be fixed here.
 
That is because to the best to my knowledge it has not happened yet. When dealing with civil liability you deal with what you could be sued for. Self defense incidents among civilians are fortunately few and far between. We may never have a test case of someone using a large bore handgun in self defense in our lifetime in a State that has no civil suit immunity.

There is a legal authority and a NC CHP instructor that agrees with me on the subject. Link Removed


This is from a legal authority on the subject in a State that has no civil suit immunity.

The same thing can be applied to using a caliber that is not mainstream for personal protection.


Again, the case of juries being unpredictible or the snake oil attorney successfully selling their argument.

I am not an attorney yet a legal authority in the State of NC, lead defense attorney for the State's use of lethal force, does concur with my opinion on the subject. We only have test cases for handloads that I know about.

If you use a mainstream self defense caliber or the same thing your local LEOs use, you have removed a bit of information the plaintiff can use against you to sway the jury. That has been and always is my rationale for using mainstream calibers, preferrably the same ammunition LEOs in the area use. If you are in a State that has civil suit immunity then this is not an issue as I have stated before.

Again, all speculation and personal opinion of you and a legal expert.

I could easily post the opinions of other legal experts who would dispute your conclusion and the conclusion of your expert, but what would be the point.

The truth of the matter is that each case would have to dealt with on its individual merits. A leech of attorney who is merely seeking to make some money on a case would not do well against a seasoned second amendment attorney who is used to the deceptive practices.

Your experts scenario also does take into account that in the case of justifiable use of deadly force, the jury is going to be made aware the you were in fact the victim who was stopping a forcible felony against your person and you were in fear of your life. Two sides to the same story.

I will continue to live my life based on what is, rather than what might be.
 
Again, all speculation and personal opinion of you and a legal expert.

I could easily post the opinions of other legal experts who would dispute your conclusion and the conclusion of your expert, but what would be the point.

The truth of the matter is that each case would have to dealt with on its individual merits. A leech of attorney who is merely seeking to make some money on a case would not do well against a seasoned second amendment attorney who is used to the deceptive practices.

Your experts scenario also does take into account that in the case of justifiable use of deadly force, the jury is going to be made aware the you were in fact the victim who was stopping a forcible felony against your person and you were in fear of your life. Two sides to the same story.

I will continue to live my life based on what is, rather than what might be.

I couldn't agree with you more, Palmach. This line of reasoning that netentity is using is something that only a crooked lawyer looking to make money would use. No jury would even seriously consider entertaining such a fallacious and ridiculous argument. Any lawyer who tries to hold someone liable for a wrongful death in a self-defense shooting based on caliber deserves to be laughed out of the courtroom.
 
I can't believe this thread has gone so far and become such an argument.

Since I started this thread I thought I'd weigh in again with my decision on a carry weapon. After much debate I decided on a Glock 27 .40 S&W as a carry weapon. I have been considering others because the glock is a little on the fat side but so far I am happy with it. Regardless of the arguments on both sides of this debate I opted to go with the .40 because it is very popular with local LEO's for carry guns, many of whom carry this model.

It seems to me that the .40S&W and .45 ACP have the best balance of managable recoil, stopping power without excessive penetration, and general acceptability as SD rounds.

We touched on this subject in my CCH class and the instructor advised against less conventional, high powered, or even hand loaded rounds due to possible criminal or civil prosecution and how it could possibly be presented in court to a jury of people that may not be sympathetic or accepting of CCH carriers or gun people in general.
She stated several instances where it was brought up in court and the particular gun and ammunition was presented as evidence which went against the defendant. She also advised not picking a gun that looks too "Tactical" such as with add on laser sights, or lights, threaded barrels, compensated barrels, extended magazines, military looking configurations or color schemes for the same reasons. She recommended not carrying anything more powerful than a .45 for reasons of over penetration and the increased possibility of pass through and carrying enough energy to kill or maim an innocent bystander or even someone at a distance or inside a vehicle or residence.

I don't know if anyone else is aware of this case but I read about it about a month ago and can't remember the guys name but I think it was in Arizona or Nevada, somewhere out west where a guy was hiking in the mountains and shot a guy who he claimed charged him, I believe he claimed the guys dogs were agressive towards him and I'm not sure if he fired a shot to scare them off or whatever but the guy charged him and got shot with a 10 mm 1911 style gun. Anyway later in the article it described how the prosecutor brought in experts who claimed that the 10mm was a high powered round that not even the police would carry and this prosecutor tried to paint the defendant as a gun nut that carried an excessively high powered gun. I don't remember if the guy was convicted or not but that's just one of several cases I've read about like that.

So while it may not always come up in court or be put on you that way if you have to go to court to defend your justification in a shooting situation I'd rather carry a round that has adequate stopping power and is generally accepted as a popular self defense caliber. I don't want to have to shoot anyone but I want to try to set myself to be in a more easily defendable situation in the aftermath if I ever do have to shoot for self defense.

I think it's a personal decision and you should carry whatever makes you comfortable but I also don't see any reason to carry something like a .357mag .44mag, .450 mag, .475. Those kinds of guns are overkill in my opinion and don't lend themselves much to concealment above the .357. Probably any cartridge that says magnum would look worse in a court room situation to a jury.
 
The Glock 27 is a great gun and should serve you well. I agree that any caliber over .357 Mag is "overkill" That aside,trying to conceal such a large gun would be very difficult. If carring open, it would be heavy and very uncomfortable. I've carried a Taurus 66 .357 Mag concealed. It's a great gun and an adequate caliber for defensive purposes. Bottom line is that any decision should be based on personal preferance. Consulting a competent criminal attorney wouldn't hurt either.

I had a conversation about this topic a coupke of weeks ago with a friend who's been a deputy prosecutor for the last 10 years or so. He told me that one point in deciding if a shooting will be prosecuted IS caliber. He's an avid gun guy, and very familiar with what the variouis calibers can do and how they work. The prosecutor has instruced his staff that any caliber other then what the local LEO are authorized as their "off duty" or "supplimental" firearms will result in greater scruitny of the case. Not saying that you will be prosecuted because of a large caliber, simply saying that if you're involved in a self defense shooting, they may take a harder look at the case because you used a caliber that was either too strong or in some cases too weak. It goes along with what's "reasonable". Most of us wouldn't attempt to stop a threat with a .22LR if we had something larger. On the flip side, a case can be made that the threat could have been stopped with the smaller caliber, so the question would be is it "reasonable" that the defendant used a .50AE Desert Eagle.

Not trying to start an argument, just sharing some insight straight from a deputy prosecutor here in Hawaii. Something to seriously consider.



gf
 
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The Glock 27 is a great gun and should serve you well. I agree that any caliber over .357 Mag is "overkill" That aside,trying to conceal such a large gun would be very difficult. If carring open, it would be heavy and very uncomfortable. I've carried a Taurus 66 .357 Mag concealed. It's a great gun and an adequate caliber for defensive purposes. Bottom line is that any decision should be based on personal preferance. Consulting a competent criminal attorney wouldn't hurt either.

I had a conversation about this topic a coupke of weeks ago with a friend who's been a deputy prosecutor for the last 10 years or so. He told me that one point in deciding if a shooting will be prosecuted IS caliber. He's an avid gun guy, and very familiar with what the variouis calibers can do and how they work. The prosecutor has instruced his staff that any caliber other then what the local LEO are authorized as their "off duty" or "supplimental" firearms will result in greater scruitny of the case. Not saying that you will be prosecuted because of a large caliber, simply saying that if you're involved in a self defense shooting, they may take a harder look at the case because you used a caliber that was either too strong or in some cases too weak. It goes along with what's "reasonable". Most of us wouldn't attempt to stop a threat with a .22LR if we had something larger. On the flip side, a case can be made that the threat could have been stopped with the smaller caliber, so the question would be is it "reasonable" that the defendant used a .50AE Desert Eagle.

Not trying to start an argument, just sharing some insight straight from a deputy prosecutor here in Hawaii. Something to seriously consider.



gf

Well, as I've said repeatedly on this thread, they should remember who the criminal is and who the victim is and act accordingly. Prosecute based upon intent, not based upon the caliber used.
 
Well, as I've said repeatedly on this thread, they should remember who the criminal is and who the victim is and act accordingly. Prosecute based upon intent, not based upon the caliber used.

I agree that they should prosecute based on intent. Here's an example on how caliber may be used to demonstrate intent. Suppose you have an average citizen who has a modest firearms collection, has several revolvers that he uses for "home protection". We'll call this citizen "Joe". Joe has his primary personal protection revolver that's a .357 magnum S&W 686, and his other home defense revolvers are .38 special made by various manufacturers. One day Joe hears someone fumbling around down stairs around 3am. He picks up his flashlight and his S&W 686 to see what's going on. He sees the shadows of what appears to be either very small men or 12 to 13 year old youths. At this point, he figures that they're unarmed, so he goes into his gun safe and retrieves his Sig Sauer Mosquito. He figures that he could use the .22 cal Mosquito to defend himself if necessary, but not necessarily kill the youths because they're young and have a long life ahead of them. He gets down stairs and the youths rush him. Feeling threatened, he unloads the 15 round magazine into the three youths. One youth bleeds out and dies while waiting for an ambulance, a second youth is critically injured due to a bullet to the head. The third youth manages to escape and check himself into a local hospital with a couple of bullets in his backside. Police arrive and question Joe, who states to the police that he would like to cooperate, but would like his attorney present before answering any questions.

Few hours later, attorney arrives at the police station and the police question Joe. He answers questions that his attorney advises him to, and cooperates to the best of his ability with the police. He's released pending further investigation. The police take his Sig Mosquito into evidence.

During the police investigation they discover that Joe has many firearms registered. The detectives wonder why he would use a .22 rather than his primary defensive firearm. Keep in mind that he never states anything to the police about wanting the youths to live a long life, or anything that would incriminate him. So far all he's stated was that he saw multiple BG in the house, retrieved his firearm, then was rushed by the youths while he attempted to get to the phone to call 911 (cell phones don't work where he lives, his only phone is in the kitchen).

Based on the fact that Joe had access to firearms that would have been able to stop the threat of three BG with knives rushing him, and the fact that he grabbed his .22 when he would have normally used a .357 mag or .38 spc, the police determine that the shooting wasn't justified and turn the case over to the prosecutor's office for review. Prosecutors determine that the guy had used a caliber that was inadequate for self defense due to the other options that Joe had. They charge him with negligent homicide (for the guy who bled out while waiting for an ambulance), and first degree assult with a deadly weapon (for the two youths that didn't die, but got shot), and reckless endangerment (for discharging a firearm in a residental neighborhood).

This case would have been a lot different if the guy didn't decide to in essence try to "scare" the youths. He should have used the adequate force necessary to stop the threat. In this case the police and prosecutors can argue that a .22 is not adequate to stop a threat. If Joe owned only a .22 caliber pistol, he could argue that this was his best (and only) option with regard to use of firearms. However, since he had other pistols that would have been adequate, the prosecutors can use that fact against him and argue that he did intend to "scare" the youths, but was overpowered by them while they tried to get away.

I'm not trying to start an argument or debate here, simply trying to show that there are times when police and prosecutors will come up with all kinds of theories that could put your average gun owner in jail. We as firearms owners need to be aware of the serious consequences of our actions. This is why I strongly recommend to all of my students that they should pick an appropriate caliber for their home defense pistol. There are some states that don't allow certain calibers to be carried for defensive purposes. I'm sure that we could find many cases that have gone to court if we looked hard enough.

Bottom line is that we should all be pro active in chosing what we carry. Consult competent legal counsel and familiarize yourself with the laws of your state and the states where you'll be traveling.



gf
 
I think many of you should read up on some actual cases of justifiable use of deadly force. How after BG's were still not down after being shot several times with .45. I know of one case where a guy was sitting on a bench waiting for police, still able to move, and still alive with 6 rounds in him.

You must realize the moment that you choose to carry a firearm that you open yourself up to all kinds of potential legal issues. This has been my point from the beginning. You either have the mindset or you don't.

How about the scenario where the BG did not go down after 2 thoracic shots, so a head shot was employed. I can assure you that when the State Attorney looked at the case, the last thing that he was concerned with was what caliber was used. They were more concerned with whether the victim was excessive in placing one in the head.

Most of us who are trained, or train on a regular basis are taught to shoot to end an attack. How you shoot and how many shots you fire may come into play way before caliber does.

As a final note for me. I have never suggested that anyone carry over a .45, as most weapons of a higher caliber would not be concealable. I am not a hand loader, so this is not an issue for me either. I do not believe that I should have to limit the type of load I carry, and will continue to carry what I consider to be the best load to stop an attack quickly and effectively. The safety of my family outweighs my concern about liability.
 
You cannot determine a person's intent based upon the caliber used.

I've never heard caliber being used as an aggravating factor (nor should it be) against a convicted killer; murder is murder and armed robbery is armed robbery whether it is committed with a .22 caliber pistol or with a .50 caliber rifle. Why should it be considered in self defense cases?
 
I agree that they should prosecute based on intent. Here's an example on how caliber may be used to demonstrate intent. Suppose you have an average citizen who has a modest firearms collection, has several revolvers that he uses for "home protection". We'll call this citizen "Joe". Joe has his primary personal protection revolver that's a .357 magnum S&W 686, and his other home defense revolvers are .38 special made by various manufacturers. One day Joe hears someone fumbling around down stairs around 3am. He picks up his flashlight and his S&W 686 to see what's going on. He sees the shadows of what appears to be either very small men or 12 to 13 year old youths. At this point, he figures that they're unarmed, so he goes into his gun safe and retrieves his Sig Sauer Mosquito. He figures that he could use the .22 cal Mosquito to defend himself if necessary, but not necessarily kill the youths because they're young and have a long life ahead of them. He gets down stairs and the youths rush him. Feeling threatened, he unloads the 15 round magazine into the three youths. One youth bleeds out and dies while waiting for an ambulance, a second youth is critically injured due to a bullet to the head. The third youth manages to escape and check himself into a local hospital with a couple of bullets in his backside. Police arrive and question Joe, who states to the police that he would like to cooperate, but would like his attorney present before answering any questions.

Few hours later, attorney arrives at the police station and the police question Joe. He answers questions that his attorney advises him to, and cooperates to the best of his ability with the police. He's released pending further investigation. The police take his Sig Mosquito into evidence.

During the police investigation they discover that Joe has many firearms registered. The detectives wonder why he would use a .22 rather than his primary defensive firearm. Keep in mind that he never states anything to the police about wanting the youths to live a long life, or anything that would incriminate him. So far all he's stated was that he saw multiple BG in the house, retrieved his firearm, then was rushed by the youths while he attempted to get to the phone to call 911 (cell phones don't work where he lives, his only phone is in the kitchen).

Based on the fact that Joe had access to firearms that would have been able to stop the threat of three BG with knives rushing him, and the fact that he grabbed his .22 when he would have normally used a .357 mag or .38 spc, the police determine that the shooting wasn't justified and turn the case over to the prosecutor's office for review. Prosecutors determine that the guy had used a caliber that was inadequate for self defense due to the other options that Joe had. They charge him with negligent homicide (for the guy who bled out while waiting for an ambulance), and first degree assult with a deadly weapon (for the two youths that didn't die, but got shot), and reckless endangerment (for discharging a firearm in a residental neighborhood).

This case would have been a lot different if the guy didn't decide to in essence try to "scare" the youths. He should have used the adequate force necessary to stop the threat. In this case the police and prosecutors can argue that a .22 is not adequate to stop a threat. If Joe owned only a .22 caliber pistol, he could argue that this was his best (and only) option with regard to use of firearms. However, since he had other pistols that would have been adequate, the prosecutors can use that fact against him and argue that he did intend to "scare" the youths, but was overpowered by them while they tried to get away.

I'm not trying to start an argument or debate here, simply trying to show that there are times when police and prosecutors will come up with all kinds of theories that could put your average gun owner in jail. We as firearms owners need to be aware of the serious consequences of our actions. This is why I strongly recommend to all of my students that they should pick an appropriate caliber for their home defense pistol. There are some states that don't allow certain calibers to be carried for defensive purposes. I'm sure that we could find many cases that have gone to court if we looked hard enough.

Bottom line is that we should all be pro active in chosing what we carry. Consult competent legal counsel and familiarize yourself with the laws of your state and the states where you'll be traveling.



gf


You couldn't possibly be serious, right? Let's not forget that in the example you provided, these young punks broke into the guy's home. They had no right to be there, and when you consider that plus the fact that they rushed at him, it simply is not conceivable that he would get prosecuted.
 
You cannot determine a person's intent based upon the caliber used.

I've never heard caliber being used as an aggravating factor (nor should it be) against a convicted killer; murder is murder and armed robbery is armed robbery whether it is committed with a .22 caliber pistol or with a .50 caliber rifle. Why should it be considered in self defense cases?
It weighs into malice. If malice is proven you almost certainly will lose the civil trial and may, depending upon the jurisdiction, the criminal. Not all States have a castle doctrine much less a stand your ground statute. Again, this will not be an issue in stand your ground States with statutory civil suit immunity but it may be an issue elsewhere.
 
You couldn't possibly be serious, right? Let's not forget that in the example you provided, these young punks broke into the guy's home. They had no right to be there, and when you consider that plus the fact that they rushed at him, it simply is not conceivable that he would get prosecuted.
This poster is in HI with is not a right to carry State and to my knowledge has no castle doctrine or stand your ground statute. It's also one of the reasons I won't visit HI. FL gets my vacation dollars.

If you're in AK or another wilderness or rural area where you have to deal with the threat of medium to large animals as well as products of a correctional system, carrying a 10mm, .44 magnum all the way up to a .500 S&W would be much more reasonable in the eyes of the investigating LEOs, prosecution and jury. It would not be reasonable in HI so the shooting would be placed under a greater scrutiny.

Part of the factor of how the case goes down is where the incident takes place. If the incident happens in an anti-2A jurisdiction then you may lost your freedom and the farm in the process.
 
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I think many of you should read up on some actual cases of justifiable use of deadly force. How after BG's were still not down after being shot several times with .45. I know of one case where a guy was sitting on a bench waiting for police, still able to move, and still alive with 6 rounds in him.

You must realize the moment that you choose to carry a firearm that you open yourself up to all kinds of potential legal issues. This has been my point from the beginning. You either have the mindset or you don't.
Again, no denying that. I also mention that fact when I teach.

Most of us who are trained, or train on a regular basis are taught to shoot to end an attack. How you shoot and how many shots you fire may come into play way before caliber does.
Apparently it doesn't in HI. You could be charged for using too small of a caliber as well as too large. You were waiting for your example, we now have one where a HI DA does instruct his staff to place a homicide case under greater scruntiny if a caliber other than what the local LEOs use is involved in the shooting. Also remember what Evan Marshall of handgun stopping power fame has said, 'Even if the situation is exactly as it appears and you’re even in accordance with the law, you need to understand one simple fact-the law is what the local prosecutor says it is. Do you really want to spend 7 years in jail waiting for an appeal to be heard and your conviction overturned?" The reciprocal argument could be used for a caliber too large. Again, it may not be an issue in your jurisdiction if you have a stand your ground statute with civil suit immunity.
 
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This poster is in HI with is not a right to carry State and to my knowledge has no castle doctrine or stand your ground statute. It's also one of the reasons I won't visit HI. FL gets my vacation dollars.

We need folks to testify that they won't visit PRHI due to the "anti-gun" laws. Tourism, along with the economy is taking a serious dive. If many folks like yourself would help us by letting the lawmakers know that you elect to vacation elsewhere, it will greatly help our quest to change the CCW laws.



gf
 
We need folks to testify that they won't visit PRHI due to the "anti-gun" laws. Tourism, along with the economy is taking a serious dive. If many folks like yourself would help us by letting the lawmakers know that you elect to vacation elsewhere, it will greatly help our quest to change the CCW laws.
PM me or post with where to send such testimony and I'll be happy to e-mail or FAX it to them or perhaps you could post it on the HI State section of this site. I have trips planned for FL, TX and WA in the next few months; all right to carry States. I enjoy traveling, but I will not travel anywhere I cannot legally carry.
 
I really dont believe it would go down this way.Even in the state that brought us obma. The appeal would overturn it.
 

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