colarado has ccw,but no one was carrying at the movie?

[Tripletap]

According to Link Removed
edit: further research shows concealed carry is not banned due to State preemption**


While a legal concealed carry citizen may have failed in an attempt to interrupt the massacre, the chance of it not occurring at all due to the worry of concealed carry citizens is certainly possible. And sorry but a lone gun man at the front of the theater back-lit by the screen would have made a pretty good target for armed response. With body armor a good hit is unlikely but it may have been enough to interrupt his actions.

Thats's what I don't get....I went to the theatre last night and took a real good look around. #1 He started at the bottom by the exit, Which means depending on where you were sitting(I always sit closer to the midway point up the stairs) You would have an elevated point of attack , ( you would likely be shooting above most peoples heads).#2 He is backlit! I guarentee the movie did not shut down when the shooting started ,and last night after sitting there I relized there is pleanty of light. I could see what every person that stood up was doing. #3 He was wearing a gas mask! Has anyone out here ever worn a gas mask? IT SEVERELY RESTRICTS YOUR VIEW! He wasn't hitting people because he was an expert marksman, He was hitting people because he was spraying a full theatre......I believe that to think he would be able to hear your shots let alone zero in and identify his target (with a gas mask on) is pretty far fetched.I'm not by any means saying that this is a ccw'rs perfect storm ,but jesus lets give our training and common sense a chance to manifest! For anyone to think that by firing on this guy would draw attention and you would become his next victim is nonsense (YOU ARE HIS NEXT VICTIM). I'm not sure what the toll is right now , But last time I looked it was 12 dead 58 injured. That's 70 people! What does a theatre hold ? 100 people? That's not good odds that he was going to skip over you just because you didn't shoot back at him.I think that if I was a ccwer that was put in that theatre (for what ever reason) it sure as hell wouldn't be to cower with my gun in it's holster that's for sure, I'D be missing rounds out of my gun! Anyways that's my thoughts on the situation....

 

[Shoobee]

Yup nobody was carrying in the movie theatre, because nobody was supposed to. The movies are a no-guns-allowed business even in a shall-issue CCW state.

So even in a shall-issue CCW state, there are still places where you might go where you can be ambushed while you are unarmed.

Bummer huh?

 

[Bozz]

Good questions and comments Walt... I'll do my best to clarify. Yes, I have some FOF training, but never in combat (ie: military).

I don't want to be misunderstood, I am far from a Cowboy that is gonna go running at a mass murderer and try to stop him... but, like you.. believe that if given even the slightest opportunity -- that I would act in a way to preserve my life and possibly that of others. What I *AM* saying is this... I'd seek cover BUT would be sure and unload my weapon on the perp if given even HALF A CHANCE. The guy was armored up, but the armor must absorb the impact of bullets and that kinetic energy DOES get transferred to the person wearing it... it can break ribs, knock you down, etc. Also, multiple shots to the same place in succession can cause it to fail.

Would it have helped if there were CCW holders in the audience last night.... maybe... maybe not. It sure seems that the chances to stop this attack would have been greater if legally armed people were in that theater.

 

[DLeeHarley]

I don't think a Rambo mentality about "what I would do is this" because I've had all this different training is going to work. Because you DON'T know what you would do. You might know what you'd like to do, or what you should do but I really don't care HOW much training or what kind of training it is, UNLESS you've been in a situation like that before you don't know. Situational Awareness is a great asset, but if you've never endured THAT kind of stress before, the only thing you'll most likely have is Muscle Memory and tunnel vision. I don't know what I would have done in that Tragedy, and I only hope that I'll never have to know. Please say a prayer for all those Friends, Families & Loved ones who are still going through Hell.
Later,

 

[dmaxx3500]

now,now,i just asked a question,i don't know if a ccw carrying person could/would have been able to do anything,,but this POS was outside when police found him and he gave up with-out a shoot being fired,he didn't seem to want to shoot it out with trained officers ''with guns'',,but at least if a ccw was there it might have helped,i know several people that wont go anywere from now on and not carry ,sign or no sign,,,my other question is why were so many young [2 months to 12 year old] children out at midnight ?

 

[Shoobee]

I don't think a Rambo mentality about "what I would do is this" because I've had all this different training is going to work. Because you DON'T know what you would do. You might know what you'd like to do, or what you should do but I really don't care HOW much training or what kind of training it is, UNLESS you've been in a situation like that before you don't know. Situational Awareness is a great asset, but if you've never endured THAT kind of stress before, the only thing you'll most likely have is Muscle Memory and tunnel vision. I don't know what I would have done in that Tragedy, and I only hope that I'll never have to know. Please say a prayer for all those Friends, Families & Loved ones who are still going through Hell.
Later,

Like Eastwood says in one of his movies, it all depends on if you feel lucky, as to what you might do.

The best strategy was to duck and cover and sneak out while Holmes was reloading. Then tell the cops where this thing is going down. One of the guys interviewed on CNN actually did exactly that, and he also let the police in at the front doors. He is one of the many heroes. And smart heroes, at that.

 

[Shoobee]

Good questions and comments Walt... I'll do my best to clarify. Yes, I have some FOF training, but never in combat (ie: military).

I don't want to be misunderstood, I am far from a Cowboy that is gonna go running at a mass murderer and try to stop him... but, like you.. believe that if given even the slightest opportunity -- that I would act in a way to preserve my life and possibly that of others. What I *AM* saying is this... I'd seek cover BUT would be sure and unload my weapon on the perp if given even HALF A CHANCE. The guy was armored up, but the armor must absorb the impact of bullets and that kinetic energy DOES get transferred to the person wearing it... it can break ribs, knock you down, etc. Also, multiple shots to the same place in succession can cause it to fail.

Would it have helped if there were CCW holders in the audience last night.... maybe... maybe not. It sure seems that the chances to stop this attack would have been greater if legally armed people were in that theater.

It is plain common sense not to permit CCW weapons at --

- a movie theatre
- a stadium
- an arena
- a bar with alcohol being served
- a courtroom
- a jail or prison
- a Federal facility

That will never change. So if you were at the movies, and you had a weapon with you, unless you were an on duty or off duty or retired LEO, you would have been breaking the trespass law.

 

[Numenor]

It is plain common sense not to permit CCW weapons at --

- a movie theatre
- a stadium
- an arena
- a bar with alcohol being served
- a courtroom
- a jail or prison
- a Federal facility

That will never change. So if you were at the movies, and you had a weapon with you, unless you were an on duty or off duty or retired LEO, you would have been breaking the trespass law.

Actually, here in VA we are allowed to carry concealed in establishments serving alcohol so long as we do not drink any. Open carry here you are allowed to drink, but not to inebiration.

Also, provided there are no signs, we are allowed to carry in a movie theatre, or any other public establishment.

 

[clarkje]

I have a cwp in South Carolina. I like going to the movie theater to see the latest releases. I never thought about someone coming in & shooting. I've questioned, could someone with a cwp have made a difference in the Colorado shooting? I carry a Taurus Tcp 738. 380 Acp. I personally think with all of the chaos & so much body armor, the chance to intervene effectively would have been slim? I feel really bad for all of the victims & victims families.

 

[clarkje]

I guess I should also reevaluate where I sit in the theater as well. I always sit in front in the right hand corner, right by the exit. Maybe that's not such a good idea.

 

[whitefeather]

Good questions and comments Walt... I'll do my best to clarify. Yes, I have some FOF training, but never in combat (ie: military).

I don't want to be misunderstood, I am far from a Cowboy that is gonna go running at a mass murderer and try to stop him... but, like you.. believe that if given even the slightest opportunity -- that I would act in a way to preserve my life and possibly that of others. What I *AM* saying is this... I'd seek cover BUT would be sure and unload my weapon on the perp if given even HALF A CHANCE. The guy was armored up, but the armor must absorb the impact of bullets and that kinetic energy DOES get transferred to the person wearing it... it can break ribs, knock you down, etc. Also, multiple shots to the same place in succession can cause it to fail.

Would it have helped if there were CCW holders in the audience last night.... maybe... maybe not. It sure seems that the chances to stop this attack would have been greater if legally armed people were in that theater.

I like seeing instructors opinions on this subject. It is a teachable moment that should be of interest to CCW holders. The likely hood of confronting danger increases as the number of people increases. As a society we should be learning that soft targets such as confined groups of people increases the risk.

In hind sight, there is allot to learn here. We know that everyone hit the floor as soon as they understood real bullets were flying. The whole incident took 90 seconds. People were crawling not running or stampeding. (having a safe shot is likely) The movie kept playing so the perp was back-lit. (he was visible as recounted by the eyewitnesses) He was wearing a gas mask, making his visibility poor. (it would be difficult for him to focus on return fire) He was primarily firing an AR15. (you would have a visible indication as to where he is pointing) He deployed a gas irritant that makes everything more difficult (if you can handle the irritant then you have some cover from the smoke) He was wearing body armour but his arms, lower legs, armpits and face were vulnerable. He was not a trained professional and we know that most of these idiots are not gun literate.(return fire would be very disconcerting to this type individual, even with armour)

There is some likely hood that more than one CCW holder would be in a packed theater. Return fire by more than one person would vastly increase the odds of a good hit or discouraging the shooter. I do agree that proximity to the shooter is important and could make a difference as to whether or not you engage. The caliber of your weapon is very important in your decision. Not a place for a pocket .380.

This all comes from a person who has been ripped by many on this board for my very conservative stance on engagement. I just do not see how a trained and capable CCW holder could do nothing but I do agree that if you are not sure of your abilities, stay on the floor.

 

[Stan45]

I think only sheeple went to the movie.

 

[BluesStringer]

Body armor definitely does not equal invulnerability. While I don't wear a whole suit of armor, I do wear a vest every day that I work. As Bozz points out, body armor fails with multiple hits in the same area, certain types more so than others. I work for an armored transport company. It's not mandatory that we wear armor, but they do pay half the cost if we decide to. I wear it not because I think I will be able to continue fighting if I get in a shootout and get hit, but because I am more likely to survive the fight. That's all. If I can continue the fight, so much the better, but stopping penetration is the primary reason I went to the expense and discomfort of wearing it.

Chances are if this maniac got hit with a volley of decent self-defense rounds from a 9mm, .40, or .45, he'd have had the fight knocked right out of him. If I'd have been in that theater, sign or no sign, I'd have been carrying, and after doing all I could to shield my wife and get her out of there, I'd have tried to engage the shooter.

If your training doesn't include how to deal with an adrenaline dump, chances are you're not well enough trained, and in that case, I would understand the flight instinct overruling the fight instinct. I would also understand if all the people who know that they'd be unprepared in such a situation were the cause of advanced tactical classes being booked to capacity for the next couple or three months. If you're unprepared for a surprise attack, you're unprepared to carry, and even unprepared to use your weapon(s) effectively in a home invasion or burglary or whatever. If this event doesn't teach that lesson, then nothing will. Get out there and train!

Blues

 

[jg1967]

I'm going to play the Devil's advocate here. Not picking on you Gramps, but just using this as an "in" to the train of thought.

Everyone seems to be coming down of the "no gun" "ban" in theaters, MO, Aurora etc, etc. as the cause for not preventing the mayhem. "If someone had a legal gun they could have defended the crowd, dropped the bad guy, saved the day" etc, etc.

What about locking the doors? What about the responsibility of the theater for not having the EMERGENCY exit door alarmed?

So far the reports say the guy (a guy) sat in the front row. As the movie began he went out a front EMERGENCY exit and blocked the door open. Minutes later the gunman entered. So either there was an accomplice or the gunman himself went out that door.

How long would you sit in a theater with an EMERGENCY alarm going off before you did something about it? Everyone is saying a citizen with a gun would have changed the outcome. Possibly. But I'm saying that if the doors were alarmed and or locked, none of it would have happened.

The responsibility for all the death falls on two players. The gunman and most of all on the theater owner.

The doors could NOT have been locked, that would have been against the law for emergency doors, but they should or could have been alarmed. What one pimply umpire would have done against the shooter is another question, however.

 

[sharpenit]

The doors could NOT have been locked, that would have been against the law for emergency doors, but they should or could have been alarmed. What one pimply umpire would have done against the shooter is another question, however.

I don't think you're right about the doors. Exit doors can be locked to those on the outside as long as they can be opened from the inside in case of emergency. Where I work, the rear exits are all locked to prevent people from coming in from the street, but if employees needed to exit, the doors have a big bar that releases the lock. Push the bar and the door opens out to the street.

 

[dmaxx3500]

this guy supossedly proped open the exit door from the inside [people say a guy took a cell call and opened the fire door too?] ,,then went back out the front doors and got in his car-drove around the back -suited up -went in the back fire door-thru in 2 canisters and walked up and dowm the isles and fired,people say this lasted 10 mins,but police say they were on seen in 1.5 mins,this guy reloaded 1-3 times

 

[Bozz]

It is plain common sense not to permit CCW weapons at --

- a movie theatre
- a stadium
- an arena
- a bar with alcohol being served
- a courtroom
- a jail or prison
- a Federal facility

That will never change. So if you were at the movies, and you had a weapon with you, unless you were an on duty or off duty or retired LEO, you would have been breaking the trespass law.

I'm not talking about breaking the LAW... where I live it's not illegal to carry in a movie theater, just against policy of these gun-free gonna save the world idiots who run them. All the other places you mentioned would be illegal though.

They would only trespass me if they asked me to leave, and I refused... which I wouldn't.

 

[Bozz]

Truth is, none of us know exactly what we'd do if we haven't been in this situation --right?

Here is what I DO know... if CCW holders were in that theater, things might have went differently -- even in the slightest.

I'm urging everyone I know and care about to take responsibility for their safety. If that taking responsibility includes carrying a gun, or even owning a gun...I plan to educate them and give them a good foundation to build from.
I'll be offering NRA Basic Pistol Courses for FREE to my friends/family -- an 8 hr. course + another 2 hrs. or so of learning about the Florida Statutes pertaining to guns/carry.

What else can I do to do my part? If anyone has any ideas, I would love to hear them.

 

[walt629]

Good questions and comments Walt... I'll do my best to clarify. Yes, I have some FOF training, but never in combat (ie: military).

I don't want to be misunderstood, I am far from a Cowboy that is gonna go running at a mass murderer and try to stop him... but, like you.. believe that if given even the slightest opportunity -- that I would act in a way to preserve my life and possibly that of others. What I *AM* saying is this... I'd seek cover BUT would be sure and unload my weapon on the perp if given even HALF A CHANCE. The guy was armored up, but the armor must absorb the impact of bullets and that kinetic energy DOES get transferred to the person wearing it... it can break ribs, knock you down, etc. Also, multiple shots to the same place in succession can cause it to fail.

Would it have helped if there were CCW holders in the audience last night.... maybe... maybe not. It sure seems that the chances to stop this attack would have been greater if legally armed people were in that theater.

I understood where you were coming from in your post, Boz and I wasn't getting on your case. That was not my intent. The FOF training, even a little bit put one in a better position to understand what is going to happen when the 'rush' starts and how to handle it. I'd wager that, with the exception of the military personnel, no one else in the theater has an inkling of what FOF is let alone how to handle a FOF situation. YOu're average CCer with a fair amount of range time might be able to hit that paper target hanging still at the end of the firing line, but thrust them into this situation and my belief is that most would choke, possibly myself included. I like to believe that all the training I've done would prevent me from becoming a speed bump in the isle way but until it happens, no one can be sure.

I'm with you on what to do. My first reaction is to save me and mine by fast egress, but if the opportunity presents itself, I'm leaving with an empty magazine. And If I am lucky enough to put him down, that's when my tactic would change.

On another note. A lot of people are saying that he would have been such and easy target because he was back lit. The last time I went to a theater and saw someone 'back lit' I couldn't tell who or what they were and I was visually distracted by what was on the big screen. In my 'guestimate' he would have been just a dark figure 'down front' until the first grenade went off.

Thanks for the feed back Boz.

 

[walt629]

The doors could NOT have been locked, that would have been against the law for emergency doors, but they should or could have been alarmed. What one pimply umpire would have done against the shooter is another question, however.

Horse hocky! The doos are locked, not chained as some have suggested they should have been. The emergency exit doors are designed to be opened from the inside only. A door that can only be opened from one side is effectively locked to anyone on the side that does not grant access. Once the perp blocked the door open so he could get back in, it was no longer locked. An alarm would have drawn massive attention to the door being open. What I said was if the doors were alarmed with a sounder, people in the audience and management would have been notified that there was a door that is NOT supposed to be open, in fact opened.

The fact that there were defeat-able 'emergency' exits without an alarm, tells me short cuts were taken during the construction of the building.

Next time you're in a restaurant, look at the emergency exit. I bet it will have a device on it with a sign that say something to the effect "Warning! Alarm will sound".

The fact is theaters in general allow patrons to use the emergency exists at every whim. It benefits the theater because it gets the first load of patrons out so the second load can get in faster. In most municipalities around my area, I've been told that using "a clearly marked" emergency exit is illegal per the fire code. I don't know if it's true or not, but the fact remains that if the door he used to get back inside to start his shooting spree had been alarmed, there is a higher probability that someone would have reacted sooner and possibly prevented the whole incident from getting of the ground.