Carry Proof of CCW Reciprocity?


O

onemore

New member
I am an Oregon resident and was recently pulled over by a state trooper in Washington, I handed the officer my Utah permit and he questioned its validity in WA, declaring that I had to prove that there was reciprocity. I had never heard this before and just assumed that the LEO should know this, or else able to access the info. I told him that I had never heard this and questioned the fact. He said his wireless network was down so he couldn't look it up, and that the burden of proof was on me and that I have to be able to prove it at any time. I ended up telling him I could, knowing that I had a couple apps on my iphone, and the travelers guide to firearm laws in the vehicle. I showed him the table in the back of the book and that satisfied him.
My question is, is this for real? I am fairly new, but have read enough that if it is true, I should have heard about it by now.
Thanks!
 

i would think they would or should know the laws they are paid to enforce
after all it is said 'ignorance of the law is not an excuse'
like i never knew riding a bicycle whilst drunk one could get a dui and a friend almost got on that way too the cop told her 'ignorance of the law is no excuse ' but let her go on warning
lolz
 
That's BS. I would throw it back at him with the old "ignorance of the law is no excuse." If the burden of proof were on you a freaking iPhone app would not suffice. Total BS.
 
I am not a lawyer but I would say you are innocent until proven guilty. The purden of proof should have been on the LEO.

But it sounds like you were polite and had the documentation to prove you were legal. It probably saved sometime.

If you didn't have paperwork he would have had to prove it. Which means at least being disarmed during the stop.

Every LEO is different. Do not be surprised if a LEO ask for you to step out and to hand over the firearm during the stop, and have it made safe. Remember the LEO wants his own safety also. Disarming and making safe by a LEO is lawful in many states. If they treat you with disrespect, dump your ammo and the ground or other actions that are uncalled for with your firearm/ammo. File a complaint afterwards with the PD.

There is a video with Massad Ayoob about what do do when you are carrying and get pulled over. Its worth watching. (sorry on my phone otherwise I would link it.)
 
Another reason I don't notify if I'm pulled over in WA where there is no notification law. Where in WA did this happen? I5 corridor?

Followed by:

If you didn't have paperwork he would have had to prove it. Which means at least being disarmed during the stop.

Every LEO is different. Do not be surprised if a LEO ask for you to step out and to hand over the firearm during the stop, and have it made safe. Remember the LEO wants his own safety also. Disarming and making safe by a LEO is lawful in many states.
Click to expand...

As another reason.
 
:yes4:I, too, am not a lawyer. The leo in question here may have had suspicions, and his wireless was down, but since when is patrol work stymied by a wireless being down, or not available? I'm sure that Barney Fife had a radio either on his person or in his car, and his dispatcher and/or supervisor would have been available to answer this officer's ignorance. It may have been an inconvenience to you, but the burden of proof is always on the accuser. You did well by being courteous and not escallating the situation. Sounds like this cop needs more training.
 
I doubt that's a requirement in Washington. I know it's not in Ohio.

You could carry proof, but a cop that lazy, dumb or hostile wouldn't believe your "proof" anyway.
 
There is a number on the back of the permit that any LEO can call 24/7 to verify the validity of the permit. Every time I've called and inquired, the nice folks at UT BCI were able to verify if a state "recognized" or had formal "reciprocity" with the state of UT.
 
Some cops have "attitude"...and the ones doing these sort of things drag the rest of them down....pretty much how some small section of the CCW populace drags the rest of us down with their unthinking attitude. Boy Scouts motto: Be Prepared. If travelling somewhere further than your home town, always print a copy of gun laws in the area you are going to and reciprocity. Put that in your glove compartment or somewhere accessible before you travel. I always have mine on my right side between the driver's seat and the middle console instead of some other hiding places in my SUV.
 
onemore said:
I am an Oregon resident and was recently pulled over by a state trooper in Washington, I handed the officer my Utah permit and he questioned its validity in WA, declaring that I had to prove that there was reciprocity. I had never heard this before and just assumed that the LEO should know this, or else able to access the info. I told him that I had never heard this and questioned the fact. He said his wireless network was down so he couldn't look it up, and that the burden of proof was on me and that I have to be able to prove it at any time. I ended up telling him I could, knowing that I had a couple apps on my iphone, and the travelers guide to firearm laws in the vehicle. I showed him the table in the back of the book and that satisfied him.
My question is, is this for real? I am fairly new, but have read enough that if it is true, I should have heard about it by now.
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, you are assuming that every cop out on the street knows every law of his municipality and knows every reciprocity between states. The simple fact is that they don't. A cop will take action to protect himself first above all else. To needlessly avoid a possible arrest and then prove I'm innocent, I've created a three-ring binder and have printed off each state's reciprocity agreement with both PA and UT (the two permits I own). When I go on a trip, I check a week or so ahead of time to make sure I have the current info and replace it in the binder if it has changed. This also allows me to brush up on the states rules and regulations concerning carrying in their state.

Doing this has saved me a lot of grief once. I was in OH, which honors the UT permit but not the PA permit where I live. OH is also a "must inform immediately state". While detained at a traffic stop in OH, the cop looked at me funny and questioned why a PA resident has a UT permit and questioned whether the UT permit was even valid in OH !!! He confiscated my weapon and had detained me in cuffs. Finally, I was able to reason with him that I actually have a copy of the reciprocity between UT and OH and that the phone number for UT's Bureau of Criminal Identification is on the back of the permit. He looked at the reciprocity printout, called the Bureau, and get this, actually apologized to me for putting me in handcuffs. I can't say for certain that he would have taken the situation further, but I could see a real possibility where a cop would arrest you first and figure out the details later. Be your own advocate and maintain copies of whichever reciprocity agreements pertain to your permits.
 
celt902 said:
That's BS. I would throw it back at him with the old "ignorance of the law is no excuse." If the burden of proof were on you a freaking iPhone app would not suffice. Total BS.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Since when are you suppose to know the law. I assume, as you travel about, if I am to believe his theory of governmental and firearm laws that you are suppose to carry an encyclopedia of every reciprocal relationship regarding CCWP--patently ridiculous. He enforces the law, he should know the law or have it available to him via dispatch on his dumb radio. Sounds like a reply from one of the second-rate LEOs that these forums are mentioning every so often with their horror stories, although this just sounds more like dumb/lazy..
 
You are not required in any state, by law, to carry proof of reciprocity. You are only required to possess a valid permit. Exactly how is showing the officer a website that says your permit is good legal proof anyway? It's just a website or phone app, exactly what legal weight does that carry?

He was looking for you to show him a reason not to write you a ticket that he had absolutely no idea would hold up in court or not, as a matter of his convenience, not legal requirement. I am really surprised to read this about Washington State Patrol - they are usually much more professional than that.
 
It's a federal felony for you to have a functional gun in any populated area (1000 feet from any school) unless you have a carry permit physically issued by the State you are in.

Title 18 USC 922(q): Federal Gun Free School Zones Act

Link Removed
 
When you travel out of state take with you the Travel Guide, it will make your life less stressful.
In the state you live in print up the CCW laws and keep them in your glove box.
 
You just have to have a license, valid where you happen to be carrying.

He pulled his "burden of proof's on you" nonsense out of his colon.

You have precisely ZERO legal duty to do his job FOR him.

The irony of this is of course that it's probably 50/50 that if you HAD proof, he wouldn't accept it anyway.

Then again, I can print up a nice official looking citation that says that Illinois has reciprocity with Ohio, when Illinois has NO citizen CCW, resident or otherwise.

Have no doubt, the cop was neck deep in "fail".
 
Sounds like a lazy LEO to me.
1. Burden of proof is on the state.
2. innocent until proven guilty

That being said I'm not a lawyer, and I usually carry a copy of Handgulaws.us with me when I'm in a state that I have never carried in. Because, you are also responsible for knowing the laws of the state your in.
 
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