Michael Brown

Therein lies the standard of the reasonable person. What would the average person have done faced with the same situation? The problem is the grand jury can never really feel what he felt or see what he saw. They get to determine if his actions are within reason from the safety of a comfy chair in the grand jury room. Such is the problem with the system. The jury has the benefit of hindsight. I wonder how many grand juries could make the decision under the heat of the Tueller drill. Jurors, you have 1.5 seconds to decide. Shoot or no shoot.

The other, and much larger, problem is that the grand jury must also face the jury of public opinion. We have been flooded with rumors and facts interlaced to the point that no matter how you pre-judge the cop or the suspect, you can find something out there to back your story. That said, they may take the easy way out, justice be damned, and do what the rioting public wants "for the good of the many"...
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This reminds me more of the Kent State Shootings in 1970 and the Rodney King beating in 1992 than of OJ. Kent State probably the most police state kind of shooting when nation guard fired on college students who were protesting. The young ones in the forum probably don't know about those incidents.
 
Kent state polarized many. The music too was very political as Ohio by Crosby still Nash and young which helped to keep events in the forefront
 
This reminds me more of the Kent State Shootings in 1970 and the Rodney King beating in 1992 than of OJ. Kent State probably the most police state kind of shooting when nation guard fired on college students who were protesting. The young ones in the forum probably don't know about those incidents.
I disagree, this was a guy the size of an NFL Linebacker charging a cop that he had just assaulted. Should a cop take a beating and just let it ride? I don't even care if he knew about the robbery, Brown did and he thought the cop did. Was it an orbital blow-out? Who cares? If you punch a cop, you can expect to go to jail. If you run you can expect them to tell you not to. If you then charge them, you better be faster than a bullet. This is MY OPINION of what happened, based on all that I have heard and read, and what I HAVE chosen to believe. None of which (if true) has anything to do with Kent State (Trigger happy National Guard) or Rodney King (many cops vs one guy)
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The point of the photo and the article is that if there is black on black violence - crickets. Black on white violence - crickets. You mentioned Rodney King, do an internet search for Reginald Denny and you'll see the kind of justice these street thug rioters and looters want.
 
There seem to be many on this thread who want to use this shooting to indite all LEOs as trigger happy thugs. From all that is coming out I must say that I would have done the same thing as Wilson if I was a LEO. I do not care even it was a "gentle" slap. When you hit a cop then you should expect to go to jail!

If someone hit me and then was charging me, I would and will shoot. Also if the BG was as big as Brown then I would keep shooting until my gun was empty or the BG was down!

I believe that most if not all on this forum would do the same. If you would not then you should stop carrying and sell all your guns.

Forget that it was a white cop and a black perp. There are many shootings across the country where a black cop shoots a white perp and nothing is said. I for one am getting very tired of every time some black guy gets shot, arrested, jailed or whatever the black community claims that it is racism by the police! Granted there are some incidents of racism but not everyone of them! We do have some bad cops but we also have some BAD posters on this thread also!

Perhaps it is time to close this thread!!!!
 
I think too many are basing what they would do off of speculation...and if that's what you consider evidence for guilt...then i suggest you sell all your belongings and leave the country.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
 
I had a blow out fracture of the right orbit when I was it the service. A blow out fracture occurs when pressure is applied to the eye-ball. The bone around the eye socket is very thin and opens up. In my case a piece of the muscle for the eye got pinched when the bone closed up when the pressure was no longer being applied.

So "in a way" CNN is right when they say that no facial bones were broken. It took a LOT of x-rays to determine why I had double vision because the bone had closed up. The same could be said for Wilson.

Last, I would not believe ANYTHING CNN says about anything. They are desperate for their lie to be true!

I posted here quoting a friend who happens to be a retired critical care nurse, much of her career spent in ERs. She was evaluating the video of the cop just seconds after the shooting as he paced back and forth looking relatively relaxed. Her evaluation was prompted by a posting of the Gateway Pundit article that the original report of Wilson having an orbital blow out came from. Every single news report since then, including FOX or any other news source you might think is credible, attributed the report back to Gateway Pundit. The Pundit based their report on an anonymous leak, so my nurse friend was interested when somebody else posted the video that's in that linked post too showing Wilson acting decidedly counter to how someone with an orbital blow out would be acting. She describes very consistently with your description of your experience what can happen with such an injury. You should read it and see if you find her description more credible than the notion that Wilson would just be up and calmly walking around after sustaining that kind of injury.

The Pundit article says this about their two sources:

Local St. Louis sources said Wilson suffered an “orbital blowout fracture to the eye socket.” This comes from a source within the Prosecuting Attorney’s office and confirmed by the St. Louis County Police.

The Prosecutor responded to that claim saying that the leak "could not" have come out of his office.

So regardless of where you or anybody else heard the report about the eye socket injury, whether on FOX or Rush's show or a conservative blog, it originated at Gateway Pundit, a self-described "right-of-center news website" (not even willing to call themselves "conservative" because they're not) that based their story on unnamed, anonymous sources inside the prosecutor's office and cop-shop. CNN also bases its story on anonymous sources "close to the investigation" that they have yet to name or identify their position or anything else. Whichever story you choose to believe, it's based on anonymous sources.

The term "facial fractures" was my characterization of what the CNN report said, not a direct quote. They kept referring to the report that other media sources had been disseminating all week as the "orbital blow out."

I disagree, this was a guy the size of an NFL Linebacker charging a cop that he had just assaulted. Should a cop take a beating and just let it ride? I don't even care if he knew about the robbery, Brown did and he thought the cop did. Was it an orbital blow-out? Who cares? If you punch a cop, you can expect to go to jail. If you run you can expect them to tell you not to. If you then charge them, you better be faster than a bullet. This is MY OPINION of what happened, based on all that I have heard and read, and what I HAVE chosen to believe.

Just to be clear, when you make the declarative statement that Brown charged the cop, and you base it on "all" that you have "heard and read," all you can have heard and read about that comes from "Josie," a caller claiming to be a friend of Wilson on the Dana Loesch radio talk show, and an unidentified voice in the background of one of the shooting scene videos. In other words, both are anonymous, whereas, no less than four live eye-witnesses who all claim they saw the end of the shooting (two say they saw all except for the round that went off in the car, and the other, Johnson, was in close proximity from beginning to end), and none of them corroborate the "charge" charge.

"Josie" will never be a witness, at least not on the facts she claimed to be relaying after having heard it from Wilson's wife. If Wilson were ever to be convicted of something, she could be a character witness during the sentencing phase, but that's it.

If identified and willing to talk, the voice in the background on the video could be a witness, but that's still four known witnesses to one unknown witness who may or may not ever be found, and that's what you're hanging your hat on by being so unequivocal about what you think happened.

As far as "who cares" whether it was an orbital blow out or not? You did. You posted the TGP story, and then claimed, "Doesn't sound like something that happens when confronting a nice college boy with his hands up..." If Wilson was punched, it was in the car. If Brown had his hands up, it was approximately 35 feet away from the car after Wilson had gotten out and chased him while firing (according to three of the four eye-witnesses). Whether Brown was a "nice college boy" or not is irrelevant. If he was trying to surrender, it's one degree or another of unjustified homicide. If he charged, and if Wilson is ever indicted (which I personally doubt will happen), his defense team is going to have an uphill battle to prove it. Dorian Johnson may be connected to Brown, and also has some criminal record of lying, so his credibility can be discarded. But the other three are not connected to Brown, nor are they connected to each other as far as anything I've heard or read, and like it or not, their testimony is going to count.

Blues
 
I don't understand why we all can't just speak freely without having to argue about "confirmed/unconfirmed"- this is a forum. Not a courthouse-

I don't understand why someone would believe and then repeat information they know is unconfirmed to begin with...

Stop the rumors...will stop the arguing.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
 
I don't understand why we all can't just speak freely without having to argue about "confirmed/unconfirmed"- this is a forum. Not a courthouse-

The only resolution to this case will come from being sussed out in a courthouse though. You and most here like to discuss the rumors and extraneous side-issues to the killing, and I like to discuss what will either be left hanging unanswered forevermore, or be tried in a court of law. I look at all shootings from a legal perspective, like I'm a juror, and most discussions on this forum about a killing by gunfire are of a legal nature. But then, most claimed as justifiable defensive shootings aren't followed by riots and international wall-to-wall coverage. It's a big story. People are gonna debate the issues. So you've got plenty of fodder to keep you interested, and I keep on with the the legal issues.

So I really don't get what your beef is, or why anyone would say the thread needs to be closed just because it's only about 80% or 90% group-think-compliant in favor of the cop, and a handful (or less) of us think Wilson screwed the pooch. Or heck, some of us haven't made up our minds at all, we just don't give Wilson any more benefit of the doubt than we do Brown or the eye-witnesses that some of you have gone out of your way to dismiss out of hand in favor of buying into radio talk show callers' claims who will never, ever be a witness in any case that ensues from the killing.

Bottom line, you can say anything you want to say, and anyone, including I, can respond with counterpoint. It's not just a forum -- it's a discussion forum. That's how it works.

Blues
 
I disagree, this was a guy the size of an NFL Linebacker charging a cop that he had just assaulted. Should a cop take a beating and just let it ride? I don't even care if he knew about the robbery, Brown did and he thought the cop did. Was it an orbital blow-out? Who cares? If you punch a cop, you can expect to go to jail. If you run you can expect them to tell you not to. If you then charge them, you better be faster than a bullet. This is MY OPINION of what happened, based on all that I have heard and read, and what I HAVE chosen to believe. None of which (if true) has anything to do with Kent State (Trigger happy National Guard) or Rodney King (many cops vs one guy)
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The point of the photo and the article is that if there is black on black violence - crickets. Black on white violence - crickets. You mentioned Rodney King, do an internet search for Reginald Denny and you'll see the kind of justice these street thug rioters and looters want.
Other than the indisputable facts of the robbery and physical shooting, you're repeating a lot of POSSIBLE but unsubstantiated (and in some cases possibly refuted) ASSERTIONS.

Without proof, I don't believe EITHER side. BOTH sides have a VAST incentive to lie.

I trust neither cops nor private sector criminals. I have not the slightest desire to get bamboozled by EITHER.
 
So you've got plenty of fodder to keep you interested, and I keep on with the the legal issues.

So I really don't get what your beef is, or why anyone would say the thread needs to be closed just because it's only about 80% or 90% group-think-compliant in favor of the cop, and a handful (or less) of us think Wilson screwed the pooch.

Blues

No beef- one of the reasons why I read forums is to read well thought out & written opposing views to my current points. Undoubtedly- yours is one of the first examples that come to mind.

And I was not implying that I felt "moderated/censored". My comment was meant to come off as a lax, jokingly:- "let's all just say what we want to say without first giving a disclosure of "hey this is just IMO- or, hey etc etc- and here's my bibliography".

I certainly understand the importance of a confirmed source- in addition to what makes a person a candidate to be a witness- as well as a marginal idea of what admissible evidence details.

But forget not that matters of personal opinion regardless of any of these confirmed anythings- also play a major role in a court case. Which is why we have jurors.

And true- once jurors are discussing the case- they have all evidence that have been substantiated as credible- in addition to those that have been dismissed by attorneys as inadmissible, or heresay (unless the court has figured out a memory erase button in the head of jurors). If this shooting is deemed bad and the officer is prosecuted- everyone in the country has heard of- or been following this story to some degree. And these 12 jurors are not robots, free of bias. They too will have read stories and updates- a good amount of which will be from unconfirmed sources. Ultimately it is their opinion that will determine "guilty/not guilty"

Despite the overwhelming amount of evidence in the Casey Anthony trial- to which even the judge was shocked- the jurors sympathized with her. And a murderer got away.

And as you know- attorneys orchestrating jurors thru whatever means they're legally allowed- in terms of the selection/rejection process- is a very vital part of the process.
 
Other than the indisputable facts of the robbery and physical shooting, you're repeating a lot of POSSIBLE but unsubstantiated (and in some cases possibly refuted) ASSERTIONS.

Without proof, I don't believe EITHER side. BOTH sides have a VAST incentive to lie.

I trust neither cops nor private sector criminals. I have not the slightest desire to get bamboozled by EITHER.
I agree with you that I completely trust neither side. I have listened to, read, and watched a lot of stuff. My opinion is based on MY experience as a citizen that has been stationed all over this country and experienced many different communities and how they interact. I have had this experience both as a federal LEO interacting with the maritime community and as a father with children in many different public school systems. I do not always side with cops, but I do have the ability to look at it from a LEO perspective. One poster here said that "IF" Brown charged the cop, we would have all reacted the same, shoot until the threat stops.
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I choose to believe (based on evidence presented and my experience) that no white cop (bigoted or not) would gun down a black guy "on his knees with his hands up" in a black neighborhood with that many witnesses around in "broad daylight". Believing that, and using little nuggets of truth like the video where the companion says that the cop tried to open the door but was "too close" and it "ricocheted" back into him (translated - the linebacker slammed it shut on the cop), I have evolved my opinion based on what I believe of the evidence presented.
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I am not asking anyone (Blues) to agree. This is my opinion, justified by what I believe of the evidence presented so far. Do with it what you will. As new evidence is released, my opinion will evolve.
 
Oh, I have even turned on CNN just to see what the sheeple are seeing. When they had Trayvon Martin's mom on I couldn't take any more.
Here's another "nugget"
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The URL got auto-censored. Let's see if it works inside of HTML tags. Nope. Still auto-censors, so all anyone who wants to read that can do is go to http://www.ivymikecafe.com and look for the title, "#Ferguson - When Azzholes Collide" without the "Zs" - y'all knew that, right?

Anyway, I read the piece and agree with probably better'n 90% of it. I'm only going to comment on two things I saw there:

1) Under the heading of, "Next group of azzholes: ghetto black Americans, their enablers, and non-blacks who act like ghetto black Americans" he says this to start the sixth paragraph:

If Michael Brown was a violent azzhole that was stupid enough to try to attack a cop after stealing from a store, admit it and drive on.

But after that sentence, the "if" disappears and he goes on making assumptions that are not in evidence about who attacked whom, and never once gets back to what if Wilson actually did grab Brown by the throat for "contempt of cop" by not getting out of the street when told to? He never gets back to what if Brown was dodging bullets while running away, and what if he turned, put his hands up in an attempt to surrender after being hit at least once, and the cop kept shooting? What if there was no "bum rush?"

Bottom line under the heading that he poses this "what if" scenario in is that it can both be true that Brown wasn't a decent guy, had violent and criminal propensities and was still murdered by a cop. That can be true even if the cop knew about the supposed robbery, which even the Chief who first promulgated that notion says wasn't true. Neither premise is mutually-exclusive to the other. The question is was it a good shoot, not whether or not "ghetto black Americans" have cleaning to do in their own house.

2) Under the heading of, "Chew on these recommendations:" he says this:

Learn to defend the individual rights of people you hate. Paradoxical, no? This my friends, is the crux of freedom. I’ll be honest. In my head I’ve choked out 40% of my fellow Americans because I think they are vapid, brain-dead, collectivist tools that have squandered their freedom for the illusion of security by centralized government. From reading the media they put out, they’ve already got me lined up for a bullet in the back of the head NKVD-style because I love my freedom, guns, and whiskey, and find illegitimate any vote to strip me of any of those or related things, no matter how “democratic” the process was.

Good grief, the whole list of recommendations is awesome, but this sums up my thoughts as I've tried to express them in this thread to a "T", especially the part in bold. Nobody likes thugs. Nobody is predisposed to like or have tolerance for "hood rats" or whatever other pejoratives one might wish to invoke in this case. But if their rights are being violated and/or they're being murdered by the state, we should "learn to defend the individual rights of people we hate."

And there's no need for anyone to get defensive by saying they don't "hate" anyone - the premise remains no matter what word or phrase one uses to express antipathy for people with whom you don't agree or don't like.

Very good "food for thought" 645. Thanks for it. I recommend everybody go read it.

Blues
 
Howdy whodat,

this was a guy the size of an NFL Linebacker

Sorta, not really.

Brown might have been 6' 4" and weighed 292lbs but he was a big fat kid. Look at the various pics of him........ He wasn't built anything like a NFL linebacker other than his height and weight.

I'm 50yo, 6' 1" ( not 5' 9" and claim to be 6' 1" ) weighed 267.8lbs this morning in my birthday suit. I workout and lift weights 3 days a week, bench about 270lbs, military press 175ish, leg press +500lbs ( no squats due to a knee replacement ) and I could have handled a fat tub like Brown without too much trouble.

Brown was a big fat kid, not a NFL Linebacker.

Paul
 

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