Open carry confrontations

One of the things that the ardent proponents of "CC and no OC" seem to overlook is the fact that when CC'ing, you look just like everyone else. You look like a non-carrier and therefore a potential target to a BG. You have no teeth showing.

Now I support both modes of carry completely and see both as personal choices to be taken by the individual. I do both, though most often I OC. I CC when I deem that to be in my better interests at some given time and/or place. I have that choice and would not want it any other way. I never ceases to amaze me why some anti-OC gun people are so set against OC'ing when they are pro-carrying. I don't see it. Perhaps they believe we'll ruin it for them by OC'ing. I don't see that happening in my state and that is what concerns me, not something that might or might not happen in some other state.
 
One of the things that the ardent proponents of "CC and no OC" seem to overlook is the fact that when CC'ing, you look just like everyone else. You look like a non-carrier and therefore a potential target to a BG. You have no teeth showing.

Now I support both modes of carry completely and see both as personal choices to be taken by the individual. I do both, though most often I OC. I CC when I deem that to be in my better interests at some given time and/or place. I have that choice and would not want it any other way. I never ceases to amaze me why some anti-OC gun people are so set against OC'ing when they are pro-carrying. I don't see it. Perhaps they believe we'll ruin it for them by OC'ing. I don't see that happening in my state and that is what concerns me, not something that might or might not happen in some other state.

I agree with you up to a point. I fully support those who choose to carry OC, due to my work environment mandating I do not do so, I choose to CC at all times to keep it simple. (Again muscle memory as to what I do in an emergency). After all this time carrying the way I do, while I have tried OC, it just is not comfortable for me to do so, doesn't 'feel' quite right.

However, I respectfully disagee with your statement about if my weapon is not showing I look like a potential target. I think a lot of it has to do with how you carry yourself as well. If you look like a target, you will be one. If you look like you are aware, paying attention to your surroundings and in control of yourself, most BG's will pick a softer, potentially easier target.
 
You both make good points. I prefer to OC my EDC and CC my BUG where I can as AR hasn't got OC at present time. But we're working on it every year. Always seems to fail by a couple of votes. :cray:
 
However, I respectfully disagee with your statement about if my weapon is not showing I look like a potential target. I think a lot of it has to do with how you carry yourself as well. If you look like a target, you will be one. If you look like you are aware, paying attention to your surroundings and in control of yourself, most BG's will pick a softer, potentially easier target.

This is just nonsense.
I am in a stop and shop store paying for my pretzels and a cold drink. How do I appear as though I am aware and paying attention to my surroundings and in control of myself to the point of discouraging a bg?
 
All it takes is one moment of not paying attention to get jumped. No one is always on guard 100% of the time. Paying for your purchases, unlocking your car door, going around a blind corner. Dozens of times a day your attention is drawn away, maybe just seconds but thats all it takes. The man behind you inline at the store, other men in a public bathroom, it happens all the time. All a person can do is remain as alert as possible.
But as we all know sh!t happens!
 
Would you expect anything different to happen if someone were to take a ghetto walk at 1:00 AM and was concealing or not carrying a firearm? It seems, the question for your example is not, "how would you carry?" No, the question for your example would be, "Why are you in the ghetto at 1:00 AM?"
Yeah but a lot more than three cops have been disarmed by a perp. Google it.
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Regarding the ghetto walk, you're correct, no one in their right mind would be there at all. OC or CC wouldn't matter, you're probably getting beat-up and robbed. A gun is better than gold to a rat. It's a coveted item. And an arrest for possession is a badge of honor to them. Your life? Thy don't care about it anymore than stepping on a bug.
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That said, I don't pass judgment on how one chooses to carry. Some people feel more comfortable CC while for others it's OC. Whatever the law allows is acceptable. But I don't think we can make judgments one way or another about which is best. Both have advantages. Both have disadvantages.
 
This is just nonsense.
I am in a stop and shop store paying for my pretzels and a cold drink. How do I appear as though I am aware and paying attention to my surroundings and in control of myself to the point of discouraging a bg?

The manner in which one carries themselves is well established as an initial deterrent. That argument is already moot. Been argued and proven by criminologists and psychologists. As Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch) once told me, "if you look like food you will be eaten." You carry yourself upright and square. Eyes are attentive to surroundings. You look everyone you meet in the eye. You're direct. You're deliberate in your actions. But there's something else... some victims give off that certain aura. Perps can almost smell it. Given the choice between a deliberate-looking man who is aware of his surroundings and a mutt walking along, unaware, eyes-down, texting with his earbuds in, music blaring, the victim choice is clear. This topic is in the curriculum of every self-defense course for which I'm certiffied. It is especially prominent in NRA self defense curriculum and is part of the instructor's course syllabus.
 
The manner in which one carries themselves is well established as an initial deterrent. That argument is already moot. Been argued and proven by criminologists and psychologists. As Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch) once told me, "if you look like food you will be eaten." You carry yourself upright and square. Eyes are attentive to surroundings. You look everyone you meet in the eye. You're direct. You're deliberate in your actions. But there's something else... some victims give off that certain aura. Perps can almost smell it. Given the choice between a deliberate-looking man who is aware of his surroundings and a mutt walking along, unaware, eyes-down, texting with his earbuds in, music blaring, the victim choice is clear. This topic is in the curriculum of every self-defense course for which I'm certiffied. It is especially prominent in NRA self defense curriculum and is part of the instructor's course syllabus.


gunz, I think this answered your query to me.
 
This topic is in the curriculum of every self-defense course for which I'm certiffied. It is especially prominent in NRA self defense curriculum and is part of the instructor's course syllabus.

Yes, the NRA curriculum contains public awareness and self confidence as a necessary dynamic for your own self defense. It is NOT presented as a means of deterrence to criminals. Your attempt to solidify your point by comparing Mr. Highawareness with some slug listening to loud music, texting and tripping over his own shoelaces is disingenuous. Most people are somewhere in between those two guys, even those trained by the NRA. I fail to see a bg not robbing the stop and shop because the guy at the counter is standing up straight, looking the checker right in the eye and appearing very "deliberate". Now, I can certainly see the bg walking out if the guy at the counter is OCing.
 
Yes, the NRA curriculum contains public awareness and self confidence as a necessary dynamic for your own self defense. It is NOT presented as a means of deterrence to criminals. Your attempt to solidify your point by comparing Mr. Highawareness with some slug listening to loud music, texting and tripping over his own shoelaces is disingenuous. Most people are somewhere in between those two guys, even those trained by the NRA. I fail to see a bg not robbing the stop and shop because the guy at the counter is standing up straight, looking the checker right in the eye and appearing very "deliberate". Now, I can certainly see the bg walking out if the guy at the counter is OCing.
Respectfully, I must disagree. The topic is covered extensively in the NRA curriculums for PPOTH and RTBAV. Refer to the NRA Guide to PPOTH Outside the Home. Chapter-6: Avoiding Confrontations Outside The Home, page-45, "Avoid making Yourself A Target" advises avoiding behavoir that makes you a target. It specifically mentions "behavoir that signifies weakness or vulnerability." Walking around in "head-up-ass" mode absolutely increases the chances of being a victim. Page-51 continues with the use of "posturing" as a reaction to a possible incident. Specifically, it states "body language is a weapon used to dominate or intimidate another." Page-56 continues "maintain an awareness of everyone around you Try to ID potentially undesirable people, keep a safe distance from them... this may prevent an attack as a criminal may see you as too difficult a target and turn attention elsewhere." Page I-20 in your instructors manual for PPOTH states the goal of the course is "to develop in the student , knowledge, skills and attitude." Page II-4 of your instructors manual specifically states "avoid making yourself a target by not behaving in a manner that causes you to stick-out or which may tempt others."
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Assuming that's not enough for you, let's move to the NRA RTBAV Instructors Manual. Page-26 advises "maintain a confident mindset. Don't look like an easy target;walk tall and look others straight in their eyes... a confident, positive mindset is invaluable." Page-28, "always walk confidently with your head up." But I'm not gonna give you a rehashing of what you should already know as an NRA instructor. This stuff just makes sense.
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Why don't I get victimized? Part of it is that I look and act with a deliberate purpose that naturally deters. Awareness, avoidance, deterrence, attitude, purpose, etc. I'm nice to all but will buy a one-way ticket to the everlasting for the fist perp to cross that threshold. And if you don't think it comes across in my demeanor you haven't met me. I think those on this site who know me or have taken my classes will agree. I'm no victim. This is all moot anyway. We're not talking about being present when the local 7-11 gets robbed. We're talking about someone attempting to harm you personally, and methods of deterring that encounter. Your 7-11 scenario is a gamble, an unknown, a hypothetical. A good instructor never answers or responds to hypothetical situations. No two events will ever be the same. And remember, Flaco isn't generally checking everyone's hip before he robs the joint. Flaco is usually buggin, nervous, high, drunk, etc. Often, Flaco doesn't know what planet he's on or what day it is. You expect him to act rationally or with tact? In fact, in advanced personal protection courses we instill a skill set in our students but we can never tell them how the events will unfold or provide statements of predictability during or before an encounter. Hypothetical situations? Never.
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In summary you are incorrect about the NRA curriculum for PPOTH and RTBAV. Did you not take an instructor's exam to be certified? The same topics are taught by Mas Ayoob's staff at LFI, Anthony Colandro's staff at Gun-For-Hire and by Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch. I've trained at all three. What are the chances we're all wrong?
 
Yes, the NRA curriculum contains public awareness and self confidence as a necessary dynamic for your own self defense. It is NOT presented as a means of deterrence to criminals. Your attempt to solidify your point by comparing Mr. Highawareness with some slug listening to loud music, texting and tripping over his own shoelaces is disingenuous. Most people are somewhere in between those two guys, even those trained by the NRA. I fail to see a bg not robbing the stop and shop because the guy at the counter is standing up straight, looking the checker right in the eye and appearing very "deliberate". Now, I can certainly see the bg walking out if the guy at the counter is OCing.

Ouch. I am not saying I am some super awareness guy. What I am saying is when I stand at the counter, I still watch the door, I already am aware of who else is in the store with me, who is standing behind me, etc.

As a counter point to your claim the bg will walk back out if you are OC'ing. If he comes in the door on your left and never actually sees your weapon on the right leg until he announces his intentions, are you not now in the same boat?

Sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention. But personally I go into stores the same way I ride my motorcycle everyday. I try to maintain a high degree of awareness, constantly searching the area around for potential 'threats'. Am I perfect 100% of the time? Doubt it, but strive for the best I can get.

For me, it is just more of the practice we talk about. I don't go to the range once a year and punch holes in a paper target and call myself ready. I practice constantly, and that practice includes being aware of my surrounding.
 
This is the youtube vid of accidentally showing his LEGALLY CC Gun,

[video=youtube;pns3_Peke30]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pns3_Peke30[/video]




Pretty sad state of affairs. The cop was part of the good ol' boy network. The Chief waited too long to investigate him, so he got off!
This is why we need OC in AR so this doesn't happen.
 
There was a guy in Texas who targeted open carriers for their weapons,I dont want the att an open carry gives,and where I live only can be used in defense if life threatening,meaning not stand your ground cannot pursue or shoot in the back.Would prefer cc and like to keep my weapon as not disclosed.I do open carry when fishing , cottonmouths like to hitchhike and occasionally one is on the ramp,45 with shotshell large 45 at that.Not to many humans crowd me.
Even then if the snake can be persuaded to vacate no shooting is involved.
 
There was a guy in Texas who targeted open carriers for their weapons,I dont want the att an open carry gives,and where I live only can be used in defense if life threatening,meaning not stand your ground cannot pursue or shoot in the back.Would prefer cc and like to keep my weapon as not disclosed.I do open carry when fishing , cottonmouths like to hitchhike and occasionally one is on the ramp,45 with shotshell large 45 at that.Not to many humans crowd me.
ven then if the snake can be persuaded to vacate no shooting is involved.

Story had to be true, because open carry is legal in Texas right?
 
And everything you hear on the internet is true because you heard it on the internet,regardless im cc mostly do desire to have a choice as well as not to use it,if I feel the danger has mostly passed.Strapped on side, walk into something and it could escalate.,,im not that fast anymore either.If unknown let it pass,if deflating.
If not prefer a sneaky pete have it out without them realizing it.Dont want any gun battles just mine going off,and then only if necessary.
 
There was a guy in Texas who targeted open carriers for their weapons,I dont want the att an open carry gives,and where I live only can be used in defense if life threatening,meaning not stand your ground cannot pursue or shoot in the back.Would prefer cc and like to keep my weapon as not disclosed.I do open carry when fishing , cottonmouths like to hitchhike and occasionally one is on the ramp,45 with shotshell large 45 at that.Not to many humans crowd me.
Even then if the snake can be persuaded to vacate no shooting is involved.
Please provide cites and/or links to anything factual in regards to someone targeting OC'ers for their weapons in Texas...

I would be very interested in seeing those facts especially since OC is currently illegal in Texas.
 
Ouch. I am not saying I am some super awareness guy. What I am saying is when I stand at the counter, I still watch the door, I already am aware of who else is in the store with me, who is standing behind me, etc.

As a counter point to your claim the bg will walk back out if you are OC'ing. If he comes in the door on your left and never actually sees your weapon on the right leg until he announces his intentions, are you not now in the same boat?

Sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention. But personally I go into stores the same way I ride my motorcycle everyday. I try to maintain a high degree of awareness, constantly searching the area around for potential 'threats'. Am I perfect 100% of the time? Doubt it, but strive for the best I can get.

For me, it is just more of the practice we talk about. I don't go to the range once a year and punch holes in a paper target and call myself ready. I practice constantly, and that practice includes being aware of my surrounding.

Mr. Highawareness is a fictitional character and was not aimed at you personally. Also, you did not offend me and I am truly sorry if you were offended by my comments. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as we all are. It's good you practice often. I wish I could practice more. The range I use does not permit draw and shoot practice. I practice drawing and aiming in the house. (unloaded of course)
 
In summary you are incorrect about the NRA curriculum for PPOTH and RTBAV. Did you not take an instructor's exam to be certified? The same topics are taught by Mas Ayoob's staff at LFI, Anthony Colandro's staff at Gun-For-Hire and by Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch. I've trained at all three. What are the chances we're all wrong?


I did not take an exam to be qualified and received my cert in a cracker jack box. I can see you have trained with all the greatest noitalls within the community and there is no chance of any of you being wrong about anything. I stand corrected. BYE
 
Ouch. I am not saying I am some super awareness guy. What I am saying is when I stand at the counter, I still watch the door, I already am aware of who else is in the store with me, who is standing behind me, etc.

As a counter point to your claim the bg will walk back out if you are OC'ing. If he comes in the door on your left and never actually sees your weapon on the right leg until he announces his intentions, are you not now in the same boat?

Sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention. But personally I go into stores the same way I ride my motorcycle everyday. I try to maintain a high degree of awareness, constantly searching the area around for potential 'threats'. Am I perfect 100% of the time? Doubt it, but strive for the best I can get.

For me, it is just more of the practice we talk about. I don't go to the range once a year and punch holes in a paper target and call myself ready. I practice constantly, and that practice includes being aware of my surrounding.
Good post. And people should remember that store robberies rarely are committed by a perp who stood around. Generally the entry and robbery is fast. So fast as to catch the clerk unaware. In some cases the delay in action when surprised is considerable for a number of reasons. Primarily among them is that the victim sometimes can believe it's actually happening. Quite often there is more than one robber. I don't care if one CC's or OC's... they're not beating a drawn gun. Take a look at videos of convenient store robberies. They're all over the web and TV shows. Fast and violent is the norm. And how many convenient store clerks are killed or attacked by the perp immediately on entry? We've only had one in my area a few years back. I talked to the kid some days later and he said "the guy came in, pointed the gun, I ran and he shot me in the ass. He never said a word until after I was down. Then he demanded the register be opened." The only thing we can know for sure is that we never know how the robbery will unfold.
 
I did not take an exam to be qualified and received my cert in a cracker jack box. I can see you have trained with all the greatest noitalls within the community and there is no chance of any of you being wrong about anything. I stand corrected. BYE
Awe, don't get mad. And if you are NRA certified a test IS required prior to certification. Your training counselor is to administer the test, collect and grade them. Some counselors just do it "open-book." In NRA PPOTH courses, day-one is lecture, day-two is advanced shooting exercises. I send you home on day-one with the test and require you return it completed on the next morning. You fail the test and you don't move to the advanced part of the curriculum. You get a kiss on the forhead, a partial refund and you're sent on your way.
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Taking an attitude about where I trained is irrelevent. I didn't attend those schools become I'm some great trainer. I did it because I had the opportunity and wanted to learn more. Just for fun really. You might call them "noitalls," but they've got the job and the TV shows for a reason. And they do all teach this topic the same.
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BTW, love the Yosemite Sam pic.
 

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