Open carry confrontations

Why would a criminal attack one of the .5% of the population that they can see has a gun and the ability to kill them, when they have the remainder of the 99.5% of the population who doesn't appear to be armed to choose from? I would rather protect myself and my family by simply encouraging the criminal to move on, leave us alone, and go pick a not visibly armed, apparently much easier target and never have to deal with the criminal at all. I do open carry because I can, and because the deterrent value of a visible firearm is much greater than that of a concealed firearm. I have the element of surprise in my favor, if the criminal is evaluating me as a target, they will be surprised to see my gun at a point where they can just ignore me and move on to an easier target.

Right on, Navy! I agree, just wish we in AR could open carry here. For one thing, besides the obvious, accidental showing of my sidearm. It's not such a problem here, but other states can, and do, cite CC'ers for as little as printing. Some officers act like we're waving the damn thing in the air!
 
With volumes of thoughtful posts here, I admit even I don't know where I stand on this anymore.
My old take against Open Carry was 1. Why subject those I refer to as "our gentle and honorable brethren" to unnecessary alarm, and 2. I felt, for reasons already stated in this thread, that OC was tactically ill-advised.
Now, I'm honestly not sure any more, but I'm still chewin' on it...

One thing I am sticking to, though - I wish to heck they'd take 'printing' off the table. I have a license, my gun's covered, so don't hassle me because it made a dent in my damn sweatshirt momentarily.
 
With volumes of thoughtful posts here, I admit even I don't know where I stand on this anymore.
My old take against Open Carry was 1. Why subject those I refer to as "our gentle and honorable brethren" to unnecessary alarm, and 2. I felt, for reasons already stated in this thread, that OC was tactically ill-advised.
Now, I'm honestly not sure any more, but I'm still chewin' on it...

One thing I am sticking to, though - I wish to heck they'd take 'printing' off the table. I have a license, my gun's covered, so don't hassle me because it made a dent in my damn sweatshirt momentarily.

I cain't find it right now. But theres this vid on youtube where a cop pulls this guy over in a van. The driver gets out and hands him his license. The cop immediately asks for his registration. He turns around to get it. His shirt tail rides up and the cop sees his side arms barrel. Well all hell breaks loose! Cop threatens to kick or shoot him in the face. Arrests him and hauls his a$$ to jail! That was on the cops dashcam.
Now that was just seeing his 1 inch of barrel peak out from under his shirt tail.
So if anyone can post that youtube vid I'd appreciate it.
It's really something to see. It just goes to show that with the wrong cop, the least little thing can end up in court or jail time.
That's one reason we so desperately need open carry in AR.
 
You know part of the reason the Oklahoma Legislature amended our carry law to allow open carry was beacuse individules who were legal to carry were getting tickets or generally being hasseled by LEOs in SOME municipalities if some one did accidently catch a glimpse of their firearm. I believe open carry should be legal, but also don't why most who actualy do open carry are doing it. The general attitude among those on this forum and amoung those I have talked to seems to be I do it "because I can". I can too, I just can't think of a situation out in the civilian world where I believe I put myself in a better position to protect myself or my family or friends with a openly displayed firearm vs a concealed one.

Carracer linked to the best open carry thread I have read to date.

Here is another thread that has a bunch of reasons why OC'ers OC, I quoted my first post from that thread

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/19286-10-reasons-open-carry.html

I open carry because:

1 You will not be targeted first, if at all. (added since this seems to be a primary argument against, and this argument has no evidence to back it up)
2 Its a faster draw.
3 Its more comfortable.
4 It deters a crime before it happens.
5 It shows the public firearms are not evil.
6 It shows the public good people carry firearms.
7 Its my right as a living soul, and the 2A says what the government can not do, not what I can do.
8 I get the opportunity to educate more people than a cc.
9 I can buy pants that fit me. No need to dress around the gun.
10 I don't worry about printing.
11 I can always conceal it if I need to.

You will find a great amount of information on here, but you can also go to opencarry.org, they have a lot more on open carry specifically.

Hopefully you read some of the responses, especially navy's and understand the majority of situations can be avoided with deterrence (this includes situational awareness, posture, physique, age, attitude, and/or OC a means of self defense).
 
I've always enjoyed that "element of surprise". I've got a gun in your ribs, surprise!

Whether a person carries open or concealed it's a personal choice. Unfortunately here in AR there is no choice. "You will carry concealed, and you will like it!" in my best German accent. :laugh:
 
I have been reading posts from people who legally open carry and get into a confrontation with businesses. I would compare them to a woman whose attire leaves little to nothing to the imagination and then complains about the “unwanted” attention. It is my opinion that both are saying, “Hey, look at me!”
Businesses are places where businesspeople earn a living for themselves and their families. The businessperson may be a gun rights advocate, but must protect his business and his livelihood when his customers object or are uncomfortable knowing a firearm is in their midst. How would you feel if someone threatened your families’ livelihood? I know I would not be happy about it.
I do not ever plan on OC. It has not happened as yet, but if any business objects to my CC I will respect their right to make a living. I will not be belligerent, confrontational or vocal about it. If they are polite I will just leave. But if they are in my face, I will politely inform them that I am sorry but I will take my business elsewhere.
This part may step on some toes but I do not know how to say it other than being blunt. Anyone, while standing up for their gun rights, who would be confrontational, belligerent and loudly vocal may not have the proper temperament to carry a firearm. I would agree that we should always stand up for our gun rights. But I do not think the way to do it is to make a scene in public. The only thing that is proven that way is that there are some people who should not have a firearm. The Left is trying to make hay out of the Trayvon Martin case. We do not need a couple of hotheads pouring gasoline onto the fire.

I agree with you and I have also been slammed around a bit for expressing my opinion. A gun is not an extension of my you know what...it is an extension of my right to defend myself. I have no problem with anyone that oc's so please don't tell me to grow some balls because I choose not to lest we ask you how long your barrel is!
 
I agree with you and I have also been slammed around a bit for expressing my opinion. A gun is not an extension of my you know what...it is an extension of my right to defend myself. I have no problem with anyone that oc's so please don't tell me to grow some balls because I choose not to lest we ask you how long your barrel is!

Did you ever think you got slammed not because of your opinion, but because you come off as insulting on your posts? In bold, are you saying open carriers are compensating or acting like their firearm is an extension of their "you know what"? Would it not be insulting if I said, "I am not ashamed of my firearms, it's my right to own them. I have nothing against cc'ers, but don't tell me to grow some balls lest we ask you why you are hiding you firearm."
 
I agree with you and I have also been slammed around a bit for expressing my opinion. A gun is not an extension of my you know what...it is an extension of my right to defend myself. I have no problem with anyone that oc's so please don't tell me to grow some balls because I choose not to lest we ask you how long your barrel is!

Is it just me, or does JimTh seem to be thinking about penises a little bit too much? Or is it penii?
 
Link Removed

The Open Carry Argument

My primary goal when I’m out and about, besides whatever I went out and about to do, is to go about peaceably and not be the victim of a violent crime. To that end I carry a firearm whenever I go out as well as follow all the other standard safety practices like maintaining situational awareness, staying out of high crime areas, and avoiding confrontation. I also have a larger overall goal of making it through my life without shooting anyone. Simply put, I don’t want to be responsible, legally or morally, for another’s death. Those two goals might appear at first blush to be mutually exclusive, and with concealed carry it would be a difficult set of goals to realize.

Carry of any firearm or other weapon for defensive purposes is a solemn responsibility. Those of us that do (openly or concealed) are mortified by the idea, constantly promoted by the pacifists, that our behavior is more reckless because we are armed. In other words, because we carry a handgun we take more risks than we would if we were unarmed. While it would be dishonest to claim we are all responsible gun owners, it is my belief that the vast majority of us are. Regardless of what or how you carry, you need to come to the realization that you are setting yourself up to lose. Whenever you are placed in a defensive situation, you will always lose; it’s only the degree of loss that’s negotiable. Ayoob hits on this in his book, In the Gravest Extreme. He suggests tossing the robber a small wad of cash and moving off, even if you could prevail with a weapon. There’s a very good reason for this. Regardless of how skilled you are at drawing your weapon, you are going to lose. It may be only a minor loss, like being very shaken up and not sleeping well for a few days, or it may be a major loss, like becoming fertilizer, or (most likely) it may be somewhere in-between, but you always lose. Your life will not be the same even if you prevail.

Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed. Every study I’ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. That only makes sense, right? Robbers, rapists, or carjackers might be dumb and opportunistic, but they have the same instinctual sense of self preservation we all have. Hyenas don’t attack lions to steal the gazelle the lions have just killed. It’s all about risk management; are the potential gains (a tasty gazelle dinner) worth the risks (pain and damage the lion’s teeth will cause), and does the hyena really need to test the lion to figure out the answer? No, the hyena can see the lion’s teeth and knows to stay well clear.

Deterrent Value:
When I’m carrying concealed I feel like my ‘teeth’ are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value. If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all. I recognize that there are some people who (think they) want to be victimized so they can whip out their concealed firearm and ‘surprise’ the mugger; that is, in my opinion, foolish immaturity. Concealed carry is good; it throws a wrench in the works for criminals who might see the teeming masses as a smorgasbord of financial gain. This deterrent effect is, nonetheless, indirect and often nil. At some point the thug will weigh the risks vs. the gains; is his current desperation for money/drugs/booze/gold grille greater than the gamble that one of those people might be carrying a gun? If he decides to play the odds, which helped along with surprise tip the scale in his favor, he will attack. Will his attack allow enough time for me to draw my concealed firearm to affect a defense? Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

Remember, I don’t want to be a victim and I don’t want to shoot anyone. So how do I realize both goals; or how do I make them inclusive? I can do that through open carry. By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal’s gains are far outweighed by the risk. There is no ambiguity when the thug is doing his risk assessment, there’s something right there in plain sight that can quickly and painfully change or terminate his life. You may not think his life has much value, but as I mentioned before, he has the same sense of self preservation as any other living creature and to him it’s every bit as valuable as yours is to you. It would be foolish to ignore this indisputable fact when you develop your overall tactical strategy.

The Five Stages of Violent Crime
I am a firm believer in this defense theology and urge anyone who carries a firearm for protection (and even those who do not) to follow the link and read it carefully. Please, for your and your family’s sake, read that. Drill down into the hyperlinks for better explanations; absorb as much information as you can. A violent crime does not begin at the point where one person with ill intent draws a weapon or attacks another.
The Five Stages of Violent Crime:
Crime and violence are processes that take time to develop. The attack is not the first step, the preliminary triangle must be built. There are five distinct stages that are easily identified:
1) Intent
2) Interview
3) Positioning
4) Attack
5) Reaction
I do not believe the act begins after the BG has made his intentions known by drawing on you (attack); it began when he formed the intent. Well, there’s not a lot I can do personally to stop another’s intent, so I need to look a little farther along in the sequence and try to derail that train before it gets to the attack. For the sake of argument, let’s remove weapons from the equation for just a moment. A 5’2” unarmed attacker isn’t going to choose a 6’6” victim over a 5’1” victim, right? He’s going to attack the easier target. Now let’s come back to the reality of violent crime and add back the weapons. Concealed carry presumes it is better to wait until the opponent has drawn his knife or gun and then try to ‘fix’ the situation. It’s seems a bit foolish to promote the idea that it’s better to attempt to stop a violent crime in the fourth stage when you could instead prevent it in the second. A concealed weapon cannot deter an attack at the ‘interview’ stage; it’s completely ineffectual in that role. Open carry is the only method that provides a direct deterrent. Let’s say the bad-guy missed the openly carried pistol and holster during the interview stage, and has proceeded to the ‘positioning’ stage. Chances are pretty good he’ll see it at some point then, right? Then, let’s say the planets have all aligned just so and he, for whatever reason, has begun his attack despite your openly carried sidearm. At this point, the OCer is on level footing with the CCer, the attack has begun. Who has the advantage? Well, I’m going to say that with all things being equal (skill level and equipment) the OCer has a speed of draw advantage over the CCer.

First One To Be Shot:
There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or ‘the first one shot’ when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. If the robber walks in and sees that you’re armed, his whole plan has encountered an unexpected variable. In bank robberies where he might expect to see an armed guard he will have already factored that possibility into his plan, but only for the armed guard, not for open or concealed carry citizens. No robber robs a bank without at least a rudimentary plan. Nevertheless, being present for a bank robbery is an extremely remote possibility for most of us regardless of our preferred method of handgun carry, so let’s go back in the 7-11. If the robber sees someone is armed he is forced to either significantly alter the plan or abort it outright. Robbing is an inherently apprehensive occupation, and one that doesn’t respond well to instant modifications. He is not prepared to commit murder when he only planned for larceny. He knows that a petty robbery will not garner the intense police manhunt a murder would. He doesn’t know if you’re an armed citizen or a police officer and isn’t going to take the time to figure it out. Either way, if someone in the 7-11 is unexpectedly armed, how many others might be similarly adorned and where might they be? Does this unexpectedly armed individual have a partner who is likewise armed nearby, someone who is watching right now? Self preservation compels him to abort the plan for one that is less risky. So we see that the logic matches the history; open carriers are not the first ones shot because it doesn’t make sense in any common street crime scenario that they would be. If your personal self protection plan emphasizes “Hollywood” style crimes over the more realistic street mugging, it might be best to stay home.

Surprise:
Probably the most common condemnation of open carry comes from the armchair tacticians who believe it’s better to have the element of surprise in a criminal encounter. Although this was touched on in the previous paragraph about deterrence, I’ll expand on it specifically here because there are some important truths you need to consider before you lean too heavily on this false support. Surprise as a defensive tactic is often based on unrealistic or ill-thought out scenarios, and seems to exist only in the minds of concealed carry firearms proponents. The circumstance where several street toughs surround and taunt you for a while before robbing you, like in some Charles Bronson movie, is not realistic; the mugger wants to get in and out as fast as possible. In most cases you will have only seconds to realize what’s happening, make a decision, and react. Imagine you’re walking along the sidewalk when two gangsta looking teenagers suddenly appear at the corner coming in the opposite direction. You have only seconds to react if their intent was to victimize you. Do you draw your concealed firearm now or wait until there’s an actual visible threat? If they are just on their way to church and you pull a gun on them, you are the criminal and you will likely forever lose your firearms rights for such a foolish action. If you don’t draw and they pull a knife or pistol when they’re just a couple steps away, your only options are draw (if you think you can) or comply. Imagine staring at the shiny blade of a knife being held by a very nervous and violent mugger, three inches from your or your wife’s throat and having to decide whether or not you have time to draw from concealment. The element of surprise may not do you any good; in fact the only surprising thing that might happen is that your concealed carry pistol gets taken along with your wallet. The thug will later get a good chuckle with his buddies about how you brought a gun to a knife fight. The simple truth is that while surprise is a monumentally superior tactical maneuver, it is exclusively an offensive action, not a defensive one. What many internet commandos call ‘defensive surprise’ is nothing more than damage control, a last ditch effort to fight your way back out of a dangerous situation. I am not aware of any army that teaches using surprise as a defense against attack. No squad of soldiers goes on patrol with their weapons hidden so that they can ‘surprise’ the enemy should they walk into an ambush.

It Will Get Stolen:
Another common criticism of open carry is that the firearm itself will be the target of theft, prompting a criminal to attack simply to get the gun from you. Like the previous example of being the first one shot in a robbery, above, this is despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens. It also blindly ignores the more obvious fact that anything you possess can make you the target of a crime, be it a car, a watch, or even a female companion (girlfriend, wife, or daughter). Crooks commonly steal for only one of two reasons; to get something you have that they want, or to get something that you have so they can sell it and buy something they want. I don’t claim it could never happen; just that it’s so remote a possibility that it doesn’t warrant drastic alterations to our self defense strategies. If you believe otherwise, leave your wife, children, watch, sunglasses, jewelry, and cell phone at home, hop into your Pinto wagon, and head out to do your thing. Very often, someone critical of open carry will cite some example of a uniformed police officer whose gun was taken by a violent criminal, and yes, this does indeed happen. The argument, however, breaks down when they assume the officer was targeted solely to steal his firearm. What is more likely is that the officer was targeted merely for being a police officer and the gun was stolen as a byproduct of the attack. More often, the officer’s gun is taken during the struggle to get the suspect into custody due to an entirely unrelated matter. However, let’s suppose, for argument, that a police officer really was attacked just to get his firearm. What actions did the police department take to prevent it from reoccurring? Did they demand that their officers carry concealed? No, of course not. You should, like the police, prioritize your defense strategy for the most likely threat first, and the least likely last.

It Scares People:
One other statement against open carry I hear is that it damages public perception of firearms owners, or that by carrying openly we are not being good ambassadors to the public. While there are some people who have a genuine fear of firearms, due either to some horrible past experience or anti-gun indoctrination, the majority of people are either indifferent to them or quite fascinated by them. I’ve never kept track of the dozens of fellow citizens I’ve encountered who have marveled at the idea of open carry, but I do know exactly how many have expressed displeasure at it; one. People are scared of many things for many reasons; however, pretending those things do not exist only perpetuates the fear. Someone who is disturbed by open carry is going to be every bit as disturbed by concealed carry. The only effective way to overcome a fear is to come to the intellectual realization that the phobia is based on emotion and not on fact. By being a firsthand witness that a firearm was carried responsibly and peaceably, and wasn’t being carried in the commission of a crime, one who was apprehensive about firearms discovers their fear is not fact based, but emotional. Thus, open carry can be a very effectual way of helping to overcome the emotionally based fear of the firearm. After all, you’d be much more likely to believe in ghosts if you saw one rather than if you listened to a ghost story around a campfire. In other words, we give significantly more credibility to the things we experience than we do to the things we hear. The bottom line is that this argument is made by people who don’t, cant, or haven’t carried openly; those of us who do so on a regular basis have an entirely different experience.

I’m Not Comfortable Carrying Openly:
This is really the only reasonable argument against open carry for an individual. We all have a comfort zone for any aspect of our lives and we prefer to stay within that comfort zone. We all agree that it’s better to be armed and never need the firearm than it is to need it and not have it. There is a point where concealing your firearm becomes so problematic, due to conditions like temperature or comfort, that some choose to either leave it behind or carry in such a way that it would be difficult or impossible to draw it quickly. If it takes me five or six seconds to draw my firearm from deep concealment and I had sufficient time before hand to actually do so, I would prefer to use that five or six seconds to avoid the entire encounter. I’m glad we have concealed carry laws in most of the states; it empowers and protects not only us but the general public through the offset deterrent effect. Some of us, however, choose the more direct deterrent effect of open carry.

Conclusion
No, open carry is not the be-all-end-all of self defense any more than concealed carry is. The purpose of this essay is not to convince you to carry a firearm openly, but to merely point out the reasoning I used to determine that it is often the best option for me. If you think otherwise, please feel free to write an essay of your own outlining the reasoning you used. I would suggest that you avoid the intellectual mistake of emphasizing rare or unlikely defense scenarios that many of us will never experience. I believe one should prioritize for the most likely threat, not the least likely threat. I don’t put Hollywood style bank robberies high on my threat list because I rarely go into a bank and those types of robberies are very rare themselves. I live in the most crime riddled city in the northwest; the most likely threat here is some young male with a knife or gun trying to carjack me or mug me on the street, in the park, or in a parking lot. With this knowledge I build my personal self protection plan based on that manner of attack. This may not suit you, especially if you live in Hollywood.


Link Removed
 
I've always enjoyed that "element of surprise". I've got a gun in your ribs, surprise!

Whether a person carries open or concealed it's a personal choice. Unfortunately here in AR there is no choice. "You will carry concealed, and you will like it!" in my best German accent. :laugh:

My element of surprise is that I am usually both open and conceal carrying. Gunther brought a friend!
 
wow, what a discourse...first, people that OC are most likely 'clean', the dirty don't want to draw attention to themselves. Second, I have no issue with it, but prefer CC, not so much to soothe the sensibilities of others (everyone who doesn't carry a gun isn't a sheep, but some that do are), but imo it offers a tactical advantage. If I were bent on ill intent the first guy I'm shooting is the guy with a gun on his hip...this is good for the CC guys because it draws fire and gives us more time to respond to a distracted target. What I find a bit disconcerting, that even amongst those that carry guns there is such a divide between those that OC vs CC, just goes to show people are itching for something to argue over, it's human nature. It is some of the rhetoric in this thread that make people nervous (not the 'sheep' or the 'liberals', but just regular people), assailing a persons masculinity because he expressed a reasoned opnion on a subject. We don't have to agree, but we must be respectful. I know, 'we' are correct and 'they' are wrong, but both sides feel the same which leaves 4 outcomes: both wrong, both right, 'we' right 'they' wrong, and the inverse of that.

People who choose the responsibility of carrying a gun should have thicker skin and not get emotionally reactive over 'words'. They should strive to be the calming influence and the voice of responsibility, not the volitility in a situation. Unless we have no other option, we do here, just turn the computer off.

Link Removed
 
If I were bent on ill intent the first guy I'm shooting is the guy with a gun on his hip...this is good for the CC guys because it draws fire and gives us more time to respond to a distracted target.

Most criminals just plain aren't that stupid, which is why "you'll get shot first" does not happen in reality. They will walk down the street one block, or wait 5 minutes for the guy with the gun to leave and pick one of the remaining 99.5% of the population who does not appear to be carrying a gun to attack. 1. There is no need to risk the known possibility of getting shot in return. 2. Most aren't willing to turn what would be a robbery charge into a murder charge. 3. It just isn't necessary to attack the .5% of the population visibly carrying guns when 99.5% of the remaining population aren't. This is such common sense, even the criminals have it. That's why you can't come up with any example of the gun with the gun was shot first in reality, and only two or three examples where the guy with the gun was even attacked.

It doesn't really matter what you personally believe, but the real facts should be presented so that people can decide for themselves based on the facts rather than personal opinions which just haven't proven, historically, to be true.
 
Most criminals just plain aren't that stupid, which is why "you'll get shot first" does not happen in reality. They will walk down the street one block, or wait 5 minutes for the guy with the gun to leave and pick one of the remaining 99.5% of the population who does not appear to be carrying a gun to attack. 1. There is no need to risk the known possibility of getting shot in return. 2. Most aren't willing to turn what would be a robbery charge into a murder charge. 3. It just isn't necessary to attack the .5% of the population visibly carrying guns when 99.5% of the remaining population aren't. This is such common sense, even the criminals have it. That's why you can't come up with any example of the gun with the gun was shot first in reality, and only two or three examples where the guy with the gun was even attacked.

It doesn't really matter what you personally believe, but the real facts should be presented so that people can decide for themselves based on the facts rather than personal opinions which just haven't proven, historically, to be true.

It doesn't matter what you believe either, but isn't that the reason for discussion, to see what others think? You and your opinions mean nothing to me, and many others I'm sure, and vice versa, that is a given, so does it need to be said, or is it said for effect, as some sort of statement of superiority, and attempt to dismiss me and my position, to gain some sort of intelectually high ground, ie, a 'dig'? Just because you state something as fact with made up statistics, does not make it fact, what you and I proffer are opinion. Bear in mind 1/2 of all homicides are unsolved, so either criminals have some savvy or LE is stupid. Your arguement is fallacious, you apply logic to an illogical act (a crime). As I said, I have no dog in this fight, carry open, I care not. But you have proven my point, people will argue over the most insignificant things and always think they are correct. The broken machine can't fix itself, it introduces positive feedback which makes the output even more unstable and out of control. People always think they are correct, their logic is sound, but they can't see they are wrong or they would alter their thought process. In my OPINION people OC for several reasons: convenience/tactical advantage, some sort of psychological reason, to make a political statement, and I'm sure many others...
 
It doesn't matter what you believe either, but isn't that the reason for discussion, to see what others think? You and your opinions mean nothing to me, and many others I'm sure, and vice versa, that is a given, so does it need to be said, or is it said for effect, as some sort of statement of superiority, and attempt to dismiss me and my position, to gain some sort of intelectually high ground, ie, a 'dig'? Just because you state something as fact with made up statistics, does not make it fact, what you and I proffer are opinion. Bear in mind 1/2 of all homicides are unsolved, so either criminals have some savvy or LE is stupid. Your arguement is fallacious, you apply logic to an illogical act (a crime). As I said, I have no dog in this fight, carry open, I care not. But you have proven my point, people will argue over the most insignificant things and always think they are correct. The broken machine can't fix itself, it introduces positive feedback which makes the output even more unstable and out of control. People always think they are correct, their logic is sound, but they can't see they are wrong or they would alter their thought process. In my OPINION people OC for several reasons: convenience/tactical advantage, some sort of psychological reason, to make a political statement, and I'm sure many others...

I'm just asking you to provide an example from real life where Joe Citizen open carrying has been shot first. This is a theory that is repeated over and over again, but yet has been proven to have happened. There is a true story of a man, Peter Cukor, beaten to death with a flower pot....so does that provide for a valid reason to adjust our gardening habits?

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...-in-berkeley-police-busy-with-occupy-protest/
 
I'm just asking you to provide an example from real life where Joe Citizen open carrying has been shot first.

That is not what you 'asked', you demeaned. Then tried to back up your position with made up stats and 'facts'.

different scenarios but more than a few where the OC person was shot first
woman in PA big OC proponent...shot dead while wearing a gun in her own home, by her husband
in GA, an OC person is offended by a guy who doesn't say thanks when OC holds a door open for him, OC follows guy, saying stuff to him, guy pulls and kills OC
would he have done so if the guy was not exhibiting a gun? perhaps not, he wouldn't have been afraid, or been able to make the arguement
I'd be curious what charges were file and if a conviction was obtained
 
never under estimate the stupid

An unarmed man attempted to rob an Eastern Michigan University student of his handgun Thursday morning while he walked on Pearl Street near the campus in Ypsilanti, university officials said. According to an email alert sent out by EMU, the student — an open-carry advocate — was walking at about 9:15 a.m. in the 300 block of Pearl Street when he was approached by an unknown man. The man grabbed the student’s holstered handgun and attempted to wrestle it away from the student, according to the alert. Another person walking by the area came to the student’s aid and was able to secure the handgun, EMU said in the statement.

According to the Richmond Times, 48yr old Blaine Tyler was open carrying a handgun when he was attacked by two 16yr olds who removed his firearm and shot him with it. The firearm was used in another robbery/fatality a few hours later. Prosecuting attorney Andy Johnson says that the two teens arrived on a scooter, followed Tyler into the gas station/convenience store at 8:15 p.m., walked in and immediately grabbed his gun and shot him with it.
 
If they'll murder you for your wallet would they murder you for your gun? Try a ghetto-walk OC at 1:00 AM and let us know what happened. The same hoodrats shop at Walmart. The only thing we know for sure is that we never know.
 
I cain't find it right now. But theres this vid on youtube where a cop pulls this guy over in a van. The driver gets out and hands him his license. The cop immediately asks for his registration. He turns around to get it. His shirt tail rides up and the cop sees his side arms barrel. Well all hell breaks loose! Cop threatens to kick or shoot him in the face. Arrests him and hauls his a$$ to jail! That was on the cops dashcam.
Now that was just seeing his 1 inch of barrel peak out from under his shirt tail.
So if anyone can post that youtube vid I'd appreciate it.
It's really something to see. It just goes to show that with the wrong cop, the least little thing can end up in court or jail time.
That's one reason we so desperately need open carry in AR.

I haven't anyone post the link, if it helps in finding it this happened in Florida.

Edit....
Here you go.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...florida-concealed-carry-licensee-in-the-back/

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
 
Yes yes yes opinions are opinions. IMO, I can go find thousands of concealed carry self defense stories online every week, and I have only found 3 possible open carry self defense stories in the last decade. So it seems, IMO, open carriers are left alone much more than concealed carriers and that was reason enough for me to keep open carrying even after I got my permission slip to hide it. An ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure.

If they'll murder you for your wallet would they murder you for your gun? Try a ghetto-walk OC at 1:00 AM and let us know what happened. The same hoodrats shop at Walmart. The only thing we know for sure is that we never know.

Would you expect anything different to happen if someone were to take a ghetto walk at 1:00 AM and was concealing or not carrying a firearm? It seems, the question for your example is not, "how would you carry?" No, the question for your example would be, "Why are you in the ghetto at 1:00 AM?"
 

New Threads

Members online

No members online now.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
49,531
Messages
610,692
Members
75,032
Latest member
BLACKROCK6
Back
Top