Have had to eat a bit of "crow". Used to say if you did not carry a 45 you probably squatted to urinate. Well, I carry a Makarov at work and a Sig 232 the rest of the time. I feel confident that either would adequately stop an attack. I have no qualms about under penatration with hollowpoints. Those gel block tests(does not matter if done by an "amatuer" or not) clearly showed plenty of penetration. Even the least of which went in 9". I am 6'2" -140 lbs and that round would have passed through me. Even a very heavy person would have been stopped by it. Carry what you want but do not "knock" what others chose to defend their lives with. I still carry a Warthog or 1911 occasionally--mostly to the range and back--lol.
Best Self-Defense Load for .380
- Thread starter USN2Pulpit
- Start date
SGB
New member
Using such logic a .22lr is adequate for self defense. You appear to be making two possibly fatal assumptions. 1st you're assuming 9" of penetration is adequate based on the square range thinking where the target is always at 90 degrees to you. 2nd is falling into the "My gunfight" trap were you assume you'll be in control of how the gun fight progresses. The DOJ standard minimum of 12" of penetration in ballistic gelatin is the measurement in that median used to judge adequate penetration in real life to consistantly reach the vital organs.Further the measurement is based on real world terminal ballistics from real world gun fights.
If you carry a gun you should read this Link Removed
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
Thanks for the info. After reading a lot of it (I'll finish reading the entirety of it at some point), I do agree the Federal Premium Hyrdo Shock (FPHS) rounds are not the best SD ammunition available today. That said, they were the top notch SD ammunition 15 years ago, and just because other companies have eclipsed the FPHS rounds, doesn't make the FPHS rounds all the sudden bad ammunition [summarized from one of the responses on a FPHS thread in another forum]. They did their job 15 years ago, they do their job now, the round goes into bad guys the same way it did in the past. For the cost, FPHS is very justifiable over ball ammo without emptying your pockets. I do believe there are better rounds, and when I buy more SD ammunition I will try and save up enough to justify purchasing the more expensive ammo (which seems to be either Gold Dot or Federal HST).
I do have another view on this topic though. If you believe .380 JHP (namely FPHS, but since you believe in only ball ammo for .380, it's safe to assume all JHP's?), are insufficient in penetration when going through heavy clothing, would that not make the FPHS a great year round .380 ammunition? In the winter, when heavier clothing is worn, since it clogs it will have the ballistics of a ball ammunition and get the required penetration needed. During the summer, when lighter clothing is worn, you get the expansion of a hollow point.
I do agree completely that under penetration is far more dangerous than over penetration. Just look at how rare it is for bystanders to be shot in a self defense situation where the round completely missed the bad guy, keeping it's lethal velocity the entire time. The chances of a round that has gone through a bad guy and hitting someone are even more improbable.
I really enjoyed the information about +p and +p+ ammunition vs light/heavy weights vs barrel length. I do know a lot of people in the gun community around me that absolutely believes in the lighter faster loads out of a >4" barrel, despite the ballistics being indifferent from the normal heavier ammunition and the recoil being much harder to control for follow up shots. More knowledge to pass on to my fellow gunslingers when the time for new ammunition comes along.
ArizonaNRAsupporter
New member
Yeah, the past year and a half I have been using Hornady TAP mostly due to the demo with ballistics gel/denim I saw from a hornady rep. But the news on the hydra-shoks is kind of interesting. I'm sure it doesnt effect every round, but you will come to find that out when you start researching. Not that uploaded youtube videos are excellent sources of research, but here are some videos showing the 4 layer denim test.
bad:
ArizonaNRAsupporter
New member
good:
ArizonaNRAsupporter
New member
bad:
For what it's worth, it seems like the lighter the hydra-shok (smaller calibers) it seems like the more this happens (just from what I've seen on the net)..
who knows.
For what it's worth, it seems like the lighter the hydra-shok (smaller calibers) it seems like the more this happens (just from what I've seen on the net)..
who knows.
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
I am disappointed that the ammo tests SGB linked didn't have .380 (went down to 9mm for auto and .38spl for revolver). Especially since the LCP is one of the most popular firearms of recent.
Also, since no other brands are mentioned, is the FPHS the only brand to have clogging issues?
ArizonaNRAsupporter
New member
During my very limited "research" consisting of google searches and youtube videos, I didn't read about or come across any other brands doing this. I looked extensively into the Hornady stuff I carry, didn't find any bad news regarding these... Lots of good reports about the Winchester Ranger-T though... I might be wanting to pick some of that stuff up..
About penetration: every human I have ever encountered has much less than 4" of flesh over his heart/lungs and practically nothing over his brain. Skulls are full of big holes that even "piss ant" 380s will pass through easily. If I ever meet anyone with 7-9 inches of flesh over his vitals and he wants my valuables he can have them. IMO, even weight lifters would not have over 4" of pectoral muscles protecting that heart/lungs/spine/kidneys. I keep Rangers in mine and feel wonderfully safe. On the same note--what makes one think that a 45 will penetrate any better than a 380--same velocity.
SGB
New member
Again your assumptions are apparently based on a square range mentality coming from static 90 degree training. Gunfights aren't static, they're dynamic with people moving and shooting at each other with extended extremities and use of cover and concealment. Real world gunfights have taught us that those extended extremities (arms) often take hits as they present a barrier to the intended center of mass aim point. A bullet that has to transverse length wise through a forearm is going to pass through 5-7 inches of muscle and possibly bone before getting to the trunk where it's going to have to pass through more muscle, fat, cartilage and bone to reach the vitals. The angle and trajectory of the bullet will dictate how many more inches the projectile will have to travel to reach the vital organs. Professionals in the field of terminal ballistics have determined through research and exhaustive testing the minimum amount of consistent penetration necessary to insure consistent penetration to the vitals under real world conditions.
For those with any interest.
Link Removed
Basic Wound Ballistic Terminal Performance Facts - M4Carbine.net Forums
BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp - M4Carbine.net Forums
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
Are there any professional testing of the .380 round? None if those links refer to actual numerical tests, just that tests have shown it to be unreliable. What tests are they referring to?
Please explain how shooting a perp robbing a restaurant is self defense. Sine you've clearly demonstrated your incredible incompetence when handling a situation on your own property as well as numerous other scenarios it's obvious that any advice from you is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine but I'd like to hear it anyway. I enjoy comedy.
SGB
New member
When you're one of the patrons of the restaurant being robbed at gun point.
Only when there is a full moon on Feb. 29 of leap years.
I like the Corbon self-defense for my LCP (with LaserMax). As someone else posted, I would hate for somebody to be shooing AT ME with it. I know the debate is if bad guy is doped up, strung out, drunk or just plain a bad *** then everybody wants a .45 stopping power. As always the debate of size vs practicality of carry. Here in FL, especially in Summer, kinda hard to hide the goods!
CharlesMorrison
Banned
I have Golden Sabre in 102grn loading. There is a video on You Tube showing the performance of the gold Sabre though four layers of jeans, calibrated gelatin and behind all that, four water jugs.
The hollow point got stuffed so it went through the jeans, gelatin and the fist water jug! All for a total of over nineteen inches of penetration
These little bad boys dig deep into a person!! I know that the hollow point didn't expand as it should in this test but if your worried about digging deep into the bad guy, it will plow through summer clothing with no problem.
The hollow point got stuffed so it went through the jeans, gelatin and the fist water jug! All for a total of over nineteen inches of penetration
These little bad boys dig deep into a person!! I know that the hollow point didn't expand as it should in this test but if your worried about digging deep into the bad guy, it will plow through summer clothing with no problem.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
Don't be fooled people, this freak couldn't care less if his bullets hit a bad guy or just someone he disagrees with. He should be banned.
