SGB
New member
I carry a 5" 1911 or a P226 99% of time I leave the house, the other 1% of the time it's a 13 shot 9mm S&W 6906. Needless to say I don't subscribe to the above.
Best Self-Defense Load for .380
- Thread starter USN2Pulpit
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I carry a 5" 1911 or a P226 99% of time I leave the house, the other 1% of the time it's a 13 shot 9mm S&W 6906. Needless to say I don't subscribe to the above.
Martin Spanagel
New member
good round i use the same round in my lcp380
MilShooter
New member
The_Outlaw said:
Are you sure you understood what Outlaw wrote? In different words, he said that it was better to carry a .380 than to go unarmed. Are you serious when you say that you would prefer to be unarmed? If so, I am speechless. And that happens rarely to me.
Hippo for dinner again?
MilShooter
SGB
New member
MilShooter, while I appreciate the effort I must point out a couple of minor points.
1 - SIM-TEST is not the same thing as ballistic gelatin. Comparing Ballistic Gel test results to Sim-Test test results isn't exactly equal.
2 - Nothing in these youtube videos shows repeated results giving an average or is suggesting that these are typical and consistantly repeatable results.
3 - While the maker of these video's obviously has put a lot of thought and care into these productions it is still a limited amateur test without credentials.
SGB
New member
My reading comprehension is fine. Please quote me where I said that I'd "prefer to go unarmed".
And pray tell WTF is "Hippo for dinner again?" supposed to mean?
ArizonaNRAsupporter
New member
You're right, better to get killed because of poor terminal ammunition performance than face the possibility that the feeble .380 is going to do a complete pass through and find an innocent target.
.............. yes the above is sarcasm........... and as to the "you wouldn't want to get shot with it crowd" ..
.. that's the stupidest argument in the book. Having been the recipient of a near fatal GSW I can tell you that I don't want to get shot with so much as a bb gun, that doesn't mean that a bb gun is a good choice for self defense.
You're the genius that mentioned to "only use ball ammo" while carrying .380. That's a bonehead move. if you're carrying for self defense, you sure as hell better have a self defense round in the weapon. If you DO hit an innocent you're 100% liable in the court of law, any bullet that comes out of your firearm has a lawyer attached to it anyway. If you want to make a stupid move go for it, but don't beat down people that understand that a fully mushroomed bullet will transfer energy better, and ultimately stop a threat quicker. Plus, we're talking about a .380 here. Statistics show that MOST gunfights happen within 12 feet, within 12 feet a .380 is deadly, ESPECIALLY several to center mass. if the OP wants to carry a .380 and he/she is comfortable with is, more power to them. I'd rather see someone carry something they can shoot with, vs some idiot carrying a 10mm that they can't hit anything with.
SGB
New member
First I never carry a .380, though if I did it would be with ball ammo. Over penetration is nowhere the boogie man it's been alleged to be while under penetration is.
Second the juvenile insult was uncalled for and just displays a lack of maturity.
Thirdly your post shows a lot of simplistic internet lawyer bs and a severe lack of how the real world works.
All of which is off topic. The topic is "Best Self-Defense Load for .380" ....... all answers are subjective so I'm sorry if my answer has caused anyone any butthurt. I have my reasons for recommending ball ammo in .380 acp and while intelligent discussion with adequate substantiating information will possibley be cause for me to change my mind posts like this will certainly not.
ArizonaNRAsupporter
New member
First I never carry a .380, though if I did it would be with ball ammo. Over penetration is nowhere the boogie man it's been alleged to be while under penetration is.
Second the juvenile insult was uncalled for and just displays a lack of maturity.
Thirdly your post shows a lot of simplistic internet lawyer bs and a severe lack of how the real world works.
All of which is off topic.
Did that make you feel better? you still must not understand the concept behind a mushroomed defense round. As an "instructor" I would expect you'd know that. As for the "simplistic internet lawyer bs", make a few phone calls. If you hit an innocent person, in court you would lose. not only because you hit an innocent, because you were using FMJ target rounds instead of JHP defense rounds. Good luck with that, "instructor".
SGB
New member
ArizonaNRAsupporter
New member
SGB
New member
ArizonaNRAsupporter
New member
You must have picked up on that due to the fact that I didn't recommend using ball ammo as self defense ammo.
MilShooter
New member
I sometimes make an irrelevant statement at the end of my post. It doesn't mean anything except for being silly. Plus, I don't like hippo.
As to your challenge, I willingly admit that you did not type the words, "I'd prefer to go unarmed".
The inference was quite clear, however. Outlaw said, and I will paraphrase, "that is is better to have a small gun than no gun."
You responded to that simple statement with the exact words of "Needless to say I don't subscribe to the above." which referenced only the Outlaw's statement.
According to my brain, when someone refutes an argument with the words, "I don't subscribe to the above", it means that they (you) disagree with that statement. So your disagreement with Outlaw's statement led me to understand that you WOULD prefer to 'go unarmed' rather than carry a small gun.
Understand now?
SGB
New member
MilShooter
New member
Look, we can debate about the number of angels that can fit on the head of a pin forever. It seems that, for this particular subject, you've already decided to ignore any evidence that is not presented exactly as you demand.
I can't fix that mindset for you, nor will I try.
I simply made an effort to present some evidence - you've presented none. If you choose to enter a pissing contest, I'd like you to first show me where there is proven and repeated failure of the Hornady Critical Defense ammo, in Sim-Test, ballistic gelatin, human cadavers - whatever. The best evidence I've seen supports my decision to load-up with Critical Defense ammo - at least for me. In the meantime, I'll wait for your certified facts.
In the meantime, you can load your guns with whatever you want, including ball ammo. I'm not trying to convince you to change to Critical Defense ammo. The choice is always yours.
For the rest of the people reading this thread, I hope they learned something from the videos that they did not already know. Sharing of information is the purpose of this forum and that was the purpose of my posts; not to satisfy your personal needs for objective, professional, certified test results from some laboratory. Even if I could supply that information, I have no doubt that you would challenge the results because it was the wrong laboratory. So I won't even try.
I'm done.
eagleeyes
New member
the only gun i've ever owned is an old browning dba .380 so i read this whole thread and guess the best bullet to put in a full casing one and not a hallow tipped?
being older model gun it's pretty big imo as far as concealing it to carry but it will have to do as that is all i have to work with as i don't plan on buying another gun anytime soon but am going to find a decent holster and do some target shooting with it a few times a month at a range after i get certified and probably practice with it at home as some you tube vids suggest for accuracy and techniques and unloaded for certain which will save me the cost of range and ammo
but like someone said it's better than nothing
and i kinda like the fact it's metal not plastic parts and has a good grip although i think loaded it's about two pounds so a bit heavy to carry but still better than nothing
it's late i need to get some sleep so good niterzzzzzzzzzzzzz to all the sharpshooters on the forum
being older model gun it's pretty big imo as far as concealing it to carry but it will have to do as that is all i have to work with as i don't plan on buying another gun anytime soon but am going to find a decent holster and do some target shooting with it a few times a month at a range after i get certified and probably practice with it at home as some you tube vids suggest for accuracy and techniques and unloaded for certain which will save me the cost of range and ammo
but like someone said it's better than nothing
and i kinda like the fact it's metal not plastic parts and has a good grip although i think loaded it's about two pounds so a bit heavy to carry but still better than nothing
it's late i need to get some sleep so good niterzzzzzzzzzzzzz to all the sharpshooters on the forum
SGB
New member
No. I addressed Outlaw's post on it's entirety, "A smaller and more easily concealable .380 on your person is way better than a larger framed bigger caliber sidearm left at home." to imply it's better to carry a small gun that you won't leave at home vs a large gun that you will leave at home. I clearly stated "I carry a 5" 1911 or a P226 99% of time I leave the house, the other 1% of the time it's a 13 shot 9mm S&W 6906." Being as I carry 100% as posted I fail to understand how anyone would come to your conclusion.
Needless to say I don't subscribe to the above. As in I don't buy into the excuse of substituting an inferior platform for a superior platform because the superior platform is too large or heavy to carry. I always carry, mostly full size service autos and occassionaly a compact in a service caliber. I never carry subcompacts or calibers smaller than .38/9mm, however if it was all I had available to me it would be loaded with ball ammo for reasons previously stated.
No one asked you to. I explained my reason that I didn't recommend the Hornady Critical Defense .380acp. You ignored what I posted and presented amateur youtube videos.
You didn't request / haven't requested that I present any that I'm aware of.
Once again I'll ask you to post the quote where I started a pissing contest.
Why thank you, youre very kind. (now that's being snarky
Wow ....... amateur uncertified information on terminal ballistics is good but professional lab certified information is hooey? I don't reckomend any JHP ammo that doesn't meet the DOJ protocals and no .380 jhp I'm aware of does so. As penetration is more important than expantion penetration wins. I'm kinda glad you're done.
For those who may be interested -
The Presumptive Hazards of Over-Penetration
8/23/11
Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration. With shots to the center of mass, if a handgun or rifle bullet fails to have enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels and organs in the torso, rapid physiological incapacitation is unlikely and an opponent may remain a lethal threat to officers and citizen bystanders. Conversely, if a bullet fired by officers completely penetrates a violent criminal and exits downrange, the bullet will certainly have had enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels or organs in the torso. As a result, it is more likely to have caused sufficient hemorrhage to induce hypovolemic shock--the only reliable method of physiological incapacitation in the absence of CNS trauma.
Unfortunately, according to the available published date, the majority of shots fired in the field by U.S. LE officers miss their intended target. According to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.
Given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect ranges between 12% to 49% of shots fired, more concern should be given to the between 51-88% of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 12%-49% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits the perpetrator in a fashion which still poses a hazard.
In short, the consequences of projectile under-penetration are far more likely to get officers and citizens killed than over-penetration issues.
BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sphttp://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914
Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is really not recommended for LE use and many savvy agencies prohibit them.
MilShooter
New member
Clearly, we're making no headway here. You just can't teach someone who refuses to learn or thinks they know it all. Here it is, plain and simple; you may have thought you originally said that "substituting an inferior platform for a superior platform because the superior platform is too large or heavy to carry" was what you wrote. But it wasn't. The choice that Outlaw posted was between being armed or being unarmed. It was a very simple and cogent thought. But you "did not subscribe" to his conclusion. In other words, you disagreed with his statement. And you were wrong.
You can choose ball ammo for all of your needs. I really don't care one way or another. There is no "absolute" in this discussion other than those you've created and tried to defend.
I am frustrated by the fact that it appears to me that you are holding yourself out to be the only expert here, who's opinion should be taken as fact. In this post and others, you are confrontational to the point of being annoying. Don't you understand the purpose of the forums here? I took some time yesterday in posting some comparative videos. And I hope that some readers learned something from them. But it is their choice, not yours, as to what to carry. I completely disagree with your conclusion that ball ammo in a .380 pistol is the best choice. But it is your choice.
Until now, I don't think I've ever met anyone who appeared to be angry with everyone. In real life, you may be a wonderful guy but here, you take a tone of superiority and aggressiveness that surprises me.
SGB, you've worn me down. You win. You can choose to harangue me until your fingers hurt. I really don't care what you do. But I'll not participate in this ridiculous conversation with you any longer.
MilShooter
Are you sure that you are an Instructor, or are you someonr that has no real world EXPERIENCE in weapons and their ability to produce the devastation in a wound channel that will put a perp down. Almost any type of projectile from a .22 to a .44 Mag. will put a perp on the ground in a close up confrontation with 2 shot's to the chest and one in the head.
Me and my wife both carry Walther PK-380's loaded with Speer 95 grain Hollow Point Gold Dot ammo that has a veloicity of just over 1.000 F.P.S. I would not trust my life or my wife's life to an inferior weapon at any time and like I said we both carry .380 cal. Walther's
P.S. I am a retired Police Detective Sergeant that was also the Dept. Range Master and Armorer and the State High Master shooting champion along with certification in being an Expert Witness for Court Room testimoney for Weapons and Projectile related matters.
AND I CARRY A .380 with confidence
Bill Hurley
Retired
Det. Sergeant
