when is it legal to draw?


Thanks to some fellow forum members from SC, I was referred to SC Code of Laws-Title 17-Criminal Procedures, Chapter 13-Arrrest, Process, Searches dnd Seizures. Under Section 17-13-20, circumstances under which citizens may arrest and the methods to do so, include the following: "A citizen may arrest a person in the nighttime by efficient means as darkness and the probability of escape render necessary, even if the life of the person should be taken when the person:" "being under circumstances which raise just suspicion of his (the felon or thief) design to steal or to commit some felony, flees when he is hailed". Bottom line in SC from my understanding of above is that if you do have an altercation with a potential perp (just suspicion) , you can try to affect an arrest by presenting your firearm (efficient means) and declaring that the perp is being held under arrest until an LEO takes him into custody--thus it is not brandishing. On top of that, if he decides to run away, you can, as the law says "take his life", if it stops his escape. This is a nighttime thing but sure goes a long way to protecting a CC who is concerned about brandishing, particularly at night. Comments?
 

IANAL, but I suspect that case law and precedent have added some serious complications to what appears to be straightforward language. I wouldn't want to bet my freedom on that statute if some questionable dude decided to turn and run from me. I'd let him go rather than risk needing an expensive lawyer to clear me of homicide charges. Shooting someone to defend a life is one thing; shooting someone suspected of committing a crime and running is something else. I'm not that cold-blooded.:fie:
 
Hey brolin: Understand what you say about case law and betting the odds. It should be noted that last year an old man heard someone out in this yard fooling around near his truck. He grabbed his gun, did not call 911 and went outside to confront. Told the 19 year old to turn around and put his hands in the air. The kid did not immediately do so and seemed to be "reaching" into his pocket, at which time the old man shot him twice. He survived and no, nada, nein charges were brought against the old man. Before I appreciated the Section 17 of the law I referred to in my last reply, I found the incident to be upsetting in that the kid was shot over nothing at that point, the old man did not even bother to call 911 until after he shot him and no charges were brought. I tend to think this is classic "case law" in SC relative to the Section 17 I referred to. As far as I am concerned, I subscribe to the philosophy that I am not going to put myself in danger of being killed over "stuff"---no matter what it is--that is why I have insurance. With that said, my understanding of this Section 17 gives me some degree of assurance that if the circumstance is such that I am involved in a situation that I could not avoid, I am covered if I present my firearm under a citizen's arrest procedure prompted by my suspicions, and am also covered if it is necessary for me to discharge my firearm and even killing the perp.
 
I will never expose or draw my weapon just to deter someone from attacking me.

The BG will go around the corner and attack someone else. Not acceptable!!

I would rather he attack me, my training and my weapon then someone not armed or trained to defend them selves.
 
Edsworld said:
I will never expose or draw my weapon just to deter someone from attacking me.

The BG will go around the corner and attack someone else. Not acceptable!!
I would rather he attack me, my training and my weapon then someone not armed or trained to defend them selves.
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I would seriously doubt that would happen, I would bet the perp would take the rest of the day off.
 
Hey Y'all: Without going back to review all replies to date, I wanted to share an article in today's local Charleston, SC paper. Apparently a tow truck operator was hired by a community in Bluffton to patrol parking in a neighborhood and in his duties he placed a parking boot on the car of an individual who had parked his car while visiting his brother. The owner of the car and the tow truck operator got into an argument at some point over the boot and the $300 the tow truck operator wanted to remove the boot. In the argument, according to the brother of the car owner, his brother showed the tow truck operator a handgun tucked in the waistband of his pants, "but never pointed it". Did he point it? Who knows. Where was the brother? Was the tow truck operator doing his job correctly? Who knows. Could he have just removed the boot since the car was somewhere in the vicinity of the brother's house? Probably. Bottom Line: Tow truck operator shot and killed the car owner. No one has been charged and police are still investigating. We talk about brandishing on this thread as a potential way to minimize a problem--here is a case where brandishing can also get you killed. Unless I see an additional artlcle on this, I would assume, since this is SC, that the tow truck operator will not be charged although he certainly can face civil consequences and so can the community that hired him. Comments?
 
I would imagine there is more to the story about the tow truck driver than in your post but it does make a good point about threatening someone with a gun whether you pull it out or not. This demonstrates my point that brandishing, no matter what you definition or the legal definition is, does not have to include waving the gun around. I would think that the tow truck driver is not off the hook quite yet and as you say the civil suits are sure to come. It sounds like either two hot heads playing with guns trying to show each other who has the biggest gun with a tragic ending. Absolutely no reason for this to happen.
 
Hey FN: The story is on the front page on the Island Packet newspaper of Hilton Head. The only thing I did not say was 1. The car was parked on another street and not in front of brother's house--someone may have complained or called in a complaint and 2. The car owner was shot multiple times--I tend to think that either the tow truck guy is nuts or the car owner, after the first shot, did reach for his gun at that point. In any event I intend to peruse the Island Packet over the next week or so. I think the final police investigation and conclusion is important if, as many have replied on this thread, showing your firearm has very differing opinions from--it can stop a problem to, as in this case, stop you. I think their conclusion may come down to believing the brother, who supposedly witnessed all, apparently in front of his house, or the tow truck guy. Trying to understand how all this happened at the brother's house when the car and the boot etc were on another street.
 
kelcarry said:
Hey FN: The story is on the front page on the Island Packet newspaper of Hilton Head. The only thing I did not say was 1. The car was parked on another street and not in front of brother's house--someone may have complained or called in a complaint and 2. The car owner was shot multiple times--I tend to think that either the tow truck guy is nuts or the car owner, after the first shot, did reach for his gun at that point. In any event I intend to peruse the Island Packet over the next week or so. I think the final police investigation and conclusion is important if, as many have replied on this thread, showing your firearm has very differing opinions from--it can stop a problem to, as in this case, stop you. I think their conclusion may come down to believing the brother, who supposedly witnessed all, apparently in front of his house, or the tow truck guy. Trying to understand how all this happened at the brother's house when the car and the boot etc were on another street.
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Here is one report on the incident and it sounds to me like the tow truck driver is nuts but I will wait on more info before hanging him.

Link Removed
 
Not reason enough to kill a man, but boy was that stupid.

Nelson Olivera said his brother showed Oates a handgun tucked in the waistband of his pants "to scare him"
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In NYS, if a person displays a weapon with the intent to "scare" another person, meaning to "scare them into thinking their life might be in danger" the other person can shoot the idiot.

"Hey buddy, look I have gun and I can kill you if I want to"

"Oh yeah, I have a gun too, and the law is on my side..Bang Bang."

I'm not saying that is the way it happened, but displaying a weapon to "scare" another person is stupid.
 
Latest on the Bluffton brandishing/shooting per my previous reply. The authorities have arrested the tow truck guy for manslaughter and possession of firearm in commission of crime (kind of redundant isn't it). Tow truck guy shot the car guy 6 times, the last 5 according to the brother who witnessed it, "execution style". Tow truck guy is not squeeky clean--several problems with violence, guns etc. Like the Las Vegas case on another thread, time to let authorities come up with course of action etc although the blog at the paper (Island Packet of Hilton Head) have lots of emotional comments. If nothing else, this is a classic case where "brandishing" (the car guy showed his firearm before anything else happened and never fired his firearm) can have a very very bad consequence.
 
nogods said:
Not reason enough to kill a man, but boy was that stupid.



In NYS, if a person displays a weapon with the intent to "scare" another person, meaning to "scare them into thinking their life might be in danger" the other person can shoot the idiot.

"Hey buddy, look I have gun and I can kill you if I want to"

"Oh yeah, I have a gun too, and the law is on my side..Bang Bang."

I'm not saying that is the way it happened, but displaying a weapon to "scare" another person is stupid.
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Disagree. See my prior posts. All in how it's done, I suppose. I will agree that opening your jacket to show a weapon tucked in your pants smacks of thuggery to me. If, however, I show you my weapon, you can bet it's not a "mexican carry" but properly holstered. More importantly, at that point, I am in position to draw it and use it if I have to. Called "training".
 
More on the Bluffton case. The tow guy shot him once in the front (first shot), 4 times in the back and once in the head and then smiled to the family and said "Feliz Navidad". You brandish a firearm, you had better be prepared to use it right then and there. You can meet up with a nut job like this tow guy and die. Good chance the car guy would still be alive if he had never shown his firearm, even though the tow guy has had previous violence/firearm problems in the past. Sure has the sound of hate written all over it.
 
Can you defend youself, yes, should you flash your weapon, no, if it is necessary to use the weapon day or night, make sure the laws of your state give you some portection, use 911 first every time that you can, there is never a cause in my book to flash/expose the weapon, if you wish to continue the assualt, you will see the flash of my weapon. Avoiding the problem in the first place is a better option.
 
Leave it in your holster until you become convinced that, immediately or in a few seconds, you'll really NEED a gun in your hand.

Then don't worry about it--just shoot if required. And fire for effect.
 
enfield said:
Leave it in your holster until you become convinced that, immediately or in a few seconds, you'll really NEED a gun in your hand.

Then don't worry about it--just shoot if required. And fire for effect.
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And hope to hell you're fast enough and good enough to protect yourself.
 
Hey JJ: Understand what you have to say in last replies but I stand with enfield on this one. You either are in imminent danger or you are not and if you are brandishing you honestly are not in imminent danger. You may be trained but the other guy may be better trained; you are playing a deadly game by thinking you are better than him, that he is as sane as you, and that by showing you are deflating the potential confrontation. Still, I get your point--just sayin. Let us all have a Happy and Healthy New Year with no brandishing and no confrontations and only the interesting interractions on this forum. Peace brother and God Bless.
 
kelcarry said:
Hey JJ: Understand what you have to say in last replies but I stand with enfield on this one. You either are in imminent danger or you are not and if you are brandishing you honestly are not in imminent danger. You may be trained but the other guy may be better trained; you are playing a deadly game by thinking you are better than him, that he is as sane as you, and that by showing you are deflating the potential confrontation. Still, I get your point--just sayin. Let us all have a Happy and Healthy New Year with no brandishing and no confrontations and only the interesting interractions on this forum. Peace brother and God Bless.
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Apparently, there seems to be 2 schools of thought, here. One says you recognize a serious threat and take concerted effort to head it off by, among other things, letting the BG know you are armed, well before it is a life or death situation. The other seems to be to wait until you are under attack and then draw and shoot.

I'm very well trained, can quickly draw and shoot accurately but I'll take school No. 1 every time. IMO, waiting until it's life/death is unnecessary (assuming it can be avoided) and potentially very unhealthy.

Every one is free to do as they choose (the glory of personal choice and freedom).

Peace and a Happy New Year to you, too, KC.
 
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