Ut-oh, CCW holder plays cowboy. Oops.

[Oregon Vet]

He should have NEVER pulled his gun. Should never do what he did. Wonder how bad that will make CCW people look?

Ken

052710 1845


Link Removed Police: Witness to iPhone theft shoots at suspects, faces own arrest

By Noelle Crombie, The Oregonian

May 26, 2010, 1:00PM

View full size

Stuart Tomlinson/The Oregonian

Roger Witter demonstrates the stance he took before firing twice into the bumper of a car containing two suspected I-phone thieves in Gresham last night. Roger Witter's good intentions landed him in jail late Tuesday.

Gresham police say Witter, 48, was in an AT&T store at 533 Northwest Division Street in Gresham when two men stole multiple iPhones. Witter witnessed the theft and, instead of waiting for police, he took off after the men, firing at their getaway car.

He told police he intended to "shoot out the tires," but it is unclear where the rounds ended up, though police said he fired in a direct line with the Gresham City Hall Max station and the adjacent Park & Ride.

Witter, a customer at the store, told police he didn't feel that his own life – or anyone else's – was in danger. He said he was trying to help police. But instead he got himself into hot water.

View full size Witter

Multnomah County Officers ended up arresting Witter, accusing him of unlawful use of a weapon, reckless endangerment disorderly conduct and unlawful discharge of a firearm. His handgun and concealed weapons permit were seized.

"It is important to remember that no matter how frustrated one may be with crime and the criminal justice system, it is not permissible to use deadly force in this type of situation," Gresham Sgt. Rick Wilson said in announcing Witter's arrest. "Those two rounds could've gone anywhere. In fact, we're still not sure where they went. They could've struck an innocent bystander or damaged property."

Wednesday morning, a gun lobbyist said he realized that Witter was trying to do the right thing but didn't show good judgment.

"I understand the person's frustration," said gun lobbyist Kevin Starrett, with the Oregon Firearms Federation, a pro-firearms group. "I can understand his desire to be helpful. But it was not the thing to do. You cant shoot someone's tires out; its just not TV."

The two suspects, who fled in a silver-colored Chrysler, remained at large this morning.

Both are described as 5-foot-10 to 5-foot-11 inches tall, and about 20 to 30 years of age.

One was wearing a gray and black horizontally striped hooded sweatshirt, blue jeans and white tennis shoes. The other was wearing a brown hooded sweatshirt, blue jeans and dark shoes. Their Chrsyler was last seen heading westbound on Northwest Division.

Witter, meanwhile, has been released from jail.

Reached at his Rockwood home this morning, Witter talked to The Oregonian.

"I'm not a cowboy," he said. "I'm not a hero. I was just doing what I always try to do: help."

AT&T employees at the store Wednesday morning declined to talk about the incident, but a spokeswoman for AT&T issued a statement.

"AT&T takes this matter very seriously," said Colleen Smith, spokesperson for AT&T. "We are cooperating with law enforcement and I'd refer you to law enforcement for any further details or comment."

-- Noelle Crombie


Link Removed

 

[Oregon Vet]

Oregon law:

When to shoot
Oregon's laws are very specific about when it's appropriate to fire guns to thwart crimes.

Citizens can fire weapons at other people -- acts known as "deadly force" -- only to prevent a violent felony or the imminent risk of serious physical injury or death, said Doug Harcleroad, a retired Lane County district attorney and senior policy adviser for the Oregon Anti-Crime Alliance.

Those who shoot at vehicles or nonhuman targets to thwart crimes can be charged with a number of offenses, including reckless endangerment, disorderly conduct, unlawful use of a weapon or discharging a firearm inside city limits, he said.

 

[wolfhunter]

This isn't going to go well for Witter.

Oregon Vet, Long time, no see! Missed your input lately.

 

[HK4U]

Not good but good to here from you Oregon Vet.

 

[gunsite]

I've said it a million times, training, learn the Use of force laws pertaining to your State laws and/or guide lines. Train, practice, and classroom instructions will give you gun discipline and confidence while carrying in public.

I hate to see a good guy do something really dumb and end up in trouble due to the lack of training and knowledge.

You must realize the liabilities of carrying a weapon, drawing it, pointing it at someone, or discharging it. DO NOT let your emotions dictate your actions/tactics. He did a bad thing with good intentions.

This guy wanted to shoot out the tires of the getaway vehicle because somebody stole an i-phone.....

Some people learn more from a good scar than good advice.

 

[Cocked _and_Locked]

I hate to see a good guy do something really dumb and end up in trouble due to the lack of training and knowledge.

I'd characterize him as more of a "bad" guy. Or maybe a dimwit, or just plain stupid. The dude obviously had no buisness carrying and now thank goodness, probably never will again.

 

[theicemanmpls]

This could of went real bad. Someone could of been hit.
I doubt if he was paying attention in his training class
Having the firearm on your waist don't give one super hero powers. Everyone should take the timer to review the law regarding carry in your state.
I wonder what pistol would work best for shooting out tires?
9 mm, 357 sig, or 40 cal with FMJ?

 

[kn1080]

I have to tell you friends... My firearm would never, ever leave my holster unless it was my family or myself in immediate danger and we could not get away. I am not superhuman... I have learned that lesson.

I choose not to get involved in anything I see happening in the world. My kids need me and that is what my cell phone is for.

 

[OngoingFreedom]

Did I miss something or did the reporter describe everything about the perps except their race?

 

[Marissa]

When did an i-phone become so important as to fire a gun in a public place with people around and potentially in harms way? What a dope.

Complacency will get a person in trouble every time.

 

[theicemanmpls]

Did I miss something or did the reporter describe everything about the perps except their race?

The perps are from Norway.

 

[Cocked _and_Locked]

Dang Norwegians. Norwegian terrorists, no doubt. :biggrin:

 

[Glock Fan]

What a doofus. Makes me wonder if he had proper firearms training. His support hand appears a little out of place. :fie:



gf

 

[AmericanSharpshooter]

Too Much TV...Too Little Training

This could have gone horribly wrong. This guy is extremely lucky that those rounds didn't find an innocent bystander. What was he thinking? Nobody's life was in danger (other than the people down range from the shooter) AND he chased after the criminals. They were already in the car and driving away! Yeesh.
Owning a firearm is the first step of a life long journey. Once you make the purchase you need to study, learn, drill, and train. You have to be mentally prepared to carry, and that doesn't mean hoping for and looking for an opportunity to draw on somebody.
This guy must have been so excited thinking that he finally got his chance to draw when instead he should have been thanking God that they didn't come in armed and force him into a situation where he HAD to draw.
The second amendment gives us the right to arm ourselves, but we also have a responsibility to fully understand the consequences of drawing our weapon. Once it leaves the safety of our holsters, somebody might die.
Here's a little litmus test that cowboy could have used. When reaching for your steel, if you find yourself saying "hot damn" rather than "oh, sh!#", you should probably engage the brain and stop your actions.

 

[Oregon Vet]

Another take on what happened at the phone store...

This is a different take on it. Written a little different. Probably LUCKY for his cousin, his cousin also has a permit but wasn't packing his gun that day, there would probably been a couple more bullets buzzing around from his gun if he had been. His cousin: "Giancone, who also holds a conceal-carry permit, wasn't carrying his gun."

Then, when they let Witter out of jail he seems to not even have had a quarter so he could call for a ride. I'm sure the cops probably would have let him call someone on one of their phones if he would have asked nicely...but, maybe not...they were pretty pi$$ed at him for shooting his gun withOUT knowing where the bullets were going. Totally NOT thinking.

He HAD to take a class to get the permit and ALL teachers STRESS the fact you only pull your weapon when you are afraid of bodily harm or losing your or your loved ones lives. NOT when a couple yahoos steal a cell phone.

LOOK at his answer: "I was just trying to stop a crime," he said. "Was it a mistake? Probably. Would I do it again? Probably."

Would he do it again? "PROBABLY".

I have to agree, he probably should NOT be packing a gun. He sure doesn't seem to remember WHEN/HOW/WHAT FOR he is supposed to use it for. Downright dangerous to everyone around him.

This article is written better than the first one.

You CAN bet on one thing...it WILL probably be used by the anti-gun people about MOST permit holders being JUST LIKE HIM OR WORSE.

Cowboys like him stick in peoples minds for a long time. Six months or a year from now people will be remembering "Yeah, I remember six months ago when when someone stole a cell phone and this guy who had a concealed carry permit whips out a gun and starts shooting at everything in sight."
And the next telling would probably be worse than that. Maybe even someone wounded or dead in the telling of the story... all tied into a CCW holder.

Not good. The BEST thing someone could have done for the guy would have been to scream for him to NOT shoot his gun, to put it right back away. Oh no, he isn't a HERO, so why was his gun out? Over a cell phone? Geeez.

Regards,

Ken

052710 2247


Link Removed, Link Removed, Link Removed AT&T customer in Gresham goes to jail after shooting at thieves' getaway car

By Bryan Denson, The Oregonian

May 26, 2010, 7:34PM

Stuart Tomlinson/The Oregonian

Roger Witter demonstrates the stance he took before firing twice into the bumper of a car containing two suspected iPhone thieves in Gresham last night. GRESHAM -- Roger Witter saw a couple of thieves run off with phones at a Gresham AT&T store, gave chase and shot a couple of holes in their getaway car with a .38-caliber revolver.

When to shoot
Oregon's laws are very specific about when it's appropriate to fire guns to thwart crimes.

Citizens can fire weapons at other people -- acts known as "deadly force" -- only to prevent a violent felony or the imminent risk of serious physical injury or death, said Doug Harcleroad, a retired Lane County district attorney and senior policy adviser for the Oregon Anti-Crime Alliance.

Those who shoot at vehicles or nonhuman targets to thwart crimes can be charged with a number of offenses, including reckless endangerment, disorderly conduct, unlawful use of a weapon or discharging a firearm inside city limits, he said.
The thieves got away. Witter wasn't so lucky.

Police cuffed Witter and hauled him to jail in downtown Portland. He pleaded not guilty Wednesday to disorderly conduct and discharging a firearm inside city limits.

Witter, 48, said his travails began Tuesday when his phone conked out. That night, the self-employed illustrator and muralist headed to the AT&T shop at 533 N.W. Division St. with his cousin, Duane Giancone, 52.

Witter was at the counter about 20 minutes when two young guys walked in behind him. Suddenly, sirens blared and the guys dashed out of the store with four iPhones they had yanked from a display.

Witter and Giancone raced after them.

"Stop!" they yelled. "Stop!"

The two thieves piled into a slate-gray car, which police later described as a Chrysler.

Witter didn't want them to get away. He had watched the decay of his nearby Rockwood neighborhood and considered the MAX train that passes through "a highway to crime." Outside his own house last year, Witter said, he had to rescue a man beaten in the head with a hammer.

View full size

To protect himself, he obtained a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Outside the AT&T store Tuesday Witter pulled that weapon, a five-shot Smith & Wesson revolver loaded with hollow-point slugs. He dropped to one knee in front of the getaway car, aimed at its right tire and shouted a single command.

"Stop!"

The car lurched forward, swerving to avoid Witter, who opened fire in hopes he could disable the tire and thwart the thieves. But Witter missed the tire. Twice.

Giancone, who also holds a conceal-carry permit, wasn't carrying his gun.

Witter holstered his revolver and walked back into the store. A manager and a security guard appeared. Witter inquired again about his broken iPhone.

Gresham police officers pulled up and asked who fired the shots. When Witter identified himself, they took his gun, keys, pocketknife and conceal-carry permit. They handcuffed him and took him to jail.

Sgt. Rick Wilson later said that in a case like this, no matter how frustrated someone gets with crime, it's not permissible to use deadly force.

"Those two rounds could've gone anywhere," Wilson said in a news release. "In fact, we're still not sure where they went. They could've struck an innocent bystander or damaged property."

Witter took exception to any such notion. The slugs he fired in the ordinarily busy shopping district hit the front bumper of the getaway car, he said, and police will find them when they locate the vehicle. Witter said he saw no bystanders at the time.

"I wasn't shooting willy-nilly," he said. "I feel like they took the wrong guy to jail."

Witter described himself as a lifelong deer and elk hunter, a guy who took gun safety courses and followed the law.

"I'm not a cowboy, I'm not a hero," he said. "I just wanted to do what was right."

Gun lobbyist Kevin Starrett, whose Oregon Firearms Federation supports the rights of gun owners and those who hold conceal-carry permits, said he thought Witter showed poor judgment.

"I can understand his desire to be helpful," Starrett said. "But it was not the thing to do. You can't shoot someone's tires out; it's just not TV."

The incident was a blur, Witter said.

"I was just trying to stop a crime," he said. "Was it a mistake? Probably. Would I do it again? Probably."

Jailers cut Witter loose in the wee hours Wednesday, too late to catch a MAX train back to Gresham. Without a ride or a phone to call for one, he walked more than 10 miles home in the rain.

AT&T officials declined to comment on the theft of iPhones or Witter's attempts to stop the crime. And it seemed to Witter that, in the end, the thieves -- suspected of a related theft of two iPhones at Mall 205 -- came out way ahead.

"They got new iPhones," he said, "and mine still doesn't work."

-- Bryan Denson

 

[FN1910]

"I was just trying to stop a crime," he said. "Was it a mistake? Probably. Would I do it again? Probably."

The difference between ignorance and stupidity is ignorance can be cured. I admire his wanting to help and do what he thinks is the right thing but he needs a little "larnin'". Trying to shoot out the tires on the getaway vehicle is for Dirty Harry in the movies, it don't happen in real life except by accident. This fellow sure appears to fit the description of "Rather than preparing for the need to use his gun he was looking for a excuse to use his gun".

 

[ronwill]

Did I miss something or did the reporter describe everything about the perps except their race?

Does race really matter? The thing here is that no life was in danger so why fire at them?

 

[Scarecrow]

ooooo... bad move man..

 

[ingber]

fine line?

In this case it was clear that shooting at fleeing robbers is not OK, even if the shooter was a cop, especially if the robbers were not armed, etc.

I can see that if the witness was in the store during the robbery, he would have wanted to try to stop the robbery. If he succeeded I guess he would have been considered a hero, even if he had pulled his weapon to stop them? Well, if that is true (maybe not?), once he pulled the weapon he would have been committed to follow through if the robbers ignored him or threatened others or simply ran away?

I realize the fellow probably felt helpless in this situation, but he did have some extra power available with his concealed weapon. The moral of the story is that you just can't pull out your weapon unless you or someone else else is in immediate danger, unless you are in in your own home and someone breaks in, at least in OR. I think this is true in most if not all States? I.e., would he have been acting properly in some other State under these circumstances?

Lester

 

[CapGun]

I guess this proves it. The only ones that should be allowed to carry guns are the police. We need to stop this stupid idea of regular citizens being allowed to carry guns. There will be carnage in the streets if we don't ban guns now! No guns= no randomly flying bullets! Wake up America! Mayors Daley and Bloomberg know what they are talking about!