The Open Carry Argument

[hopnpop]

I agree with the majority of what everyone's posting here, but for me, personally, I just avoid the hassle of open carry. When I have the right (or maybe priveledge) of concealed carry, I choose to excersize it. Like most here, I HOPE TO GOD I never had to use my weapon to take another life in self defense, but I'm willing to do so if it means self preservation. Both points are vaild, and I won't even bother arguing either one, since it's ultimately up to personal preference. Whether you legally open carry or leagally conceal carry, thank you for doing it...

I still have a LOT of reading to do to catch up on this thread but I had to stop and commend you on your open vs. concealed take. I wish many others would see it the same way you do. But no, those who don't agree with open carry tend to speak against it...LOUDLY. Thanks for seeing it for what it is - a personal choice. Both methods of carry have pros and cons but in the end, I'm just glad that something is carried - period. With me, my decision to carry open or concealed is largely based on the weather. Go figure. lol

 

[hopnpop]

...where I start to get miffed is when the police make up laws and give law abiding respectable citizens a hard time. I have read accounts of police hassling and even arresting citizens who were engaging in no illegal activity. Why? Because they were armed!! Officers in these areas dont even bother to check whether the individual is licensed. ...but that arrest stays on a persons record!!!
Another one I love is police in NWI telling citizens they cannot carry loaded/chambered! Where did this one come from!?!? Once again, police officers making up laws as they go!

Thankfully the police can't "make up laws" as they go. What they do is enforce what they think is law. Then they're proven to be wrong, dismiss, etc. I see you posted this comment a while ago and with open carry making such progress and news in the past year, I would find it very difficult to believe that police departments haven't been properly trained on how to deal with folks OCing. I can only speak for Michigan, but here, we've addressed nearly every police department state-wide. The 911 operators have been trained on dealing with MWAG (man with a gun) calls pertaining to citizens lawfully carrying. Most MWAG calls aren't even responded to anymore, as it's dealt with properly on the phone. That, and police depts. have been trained to deal with lawfully armed citizens appropriately. There are still those LEOs who have a personal dislike for people who OC and will try to trip them up, and for that, it's imperative that people who OC know the law(s) pertaining to it.

Here, an openly carrying person might be detained, but won't be arrested for the mere carry of a gun. As per the police giving bogus information, such as not being allowed to carry chambered/loaded, it happens on occasion. Again, the best thing you can do is become familiar with carry law(s). The police in general now have a pretty decent grasp of the right to openly carry, but there are many who aren't familiar with certain details: i.e; carry in an establishment that sells/serves alcohol, "pistol-free" zones, motorcycle carry, etc. Whether it's an insult to a LEO's ego or not, it's better to know the law better than he does. If you know the law and are illegally detained, the LEO looks like an ass and the whole department looks incompetent. This results in more training for LEOs, giving them a better grasp of what's law, which benefits all.

 

[hopnpop]

...Although it is a relatively conservative school I am not going to take the chance of walking into Panera with my g23 visible to the masses of sorority girls and liberal professors who are completely ignorant of the law. I think the most likely thing that will happen is someone will scream "HE'S GOT A GUN!!!" and everyone will run out of the place and 15 minutes later Ill be on my stomach with 4 officers around me guns drawn screaming orders at me.

I understand your position. I tend to try and avoid police interaction myself. I must say, tho, that I think your screaming and running scenario is a bit far-fetched. Of course it's possible but I find it highly unlikely. I've openly carried pretty much everywhere, college campus included, and never had a single problem. For the most part, no matter where you are, it goes unnoticed (surprisingly). I've been consistently surprised at how little my OC'd gun is noticed. Surprised on one hand but disappointed on the other. Not disappointed because I WANT my gun to be noticed, but disappointed that so many people, particularly women, have ZERO situational awareness. If they don't see me openly carrying a Springfield XD 4" in a Serpa Lvl.2 holster on my hip, they surely won't notice a BG approaching them with ill intentions.

If you want some interesting reading in your downtime, go to opencarry.org, forums, Michigan, click the "list your open carry experiences" thread, and pick any of the last 100-150 pages. You'll see countless entries where people have openly carried essentially EVERYWHERE without any problem at all. No screaming, no running... no issues.

 

[hopnpop]

I know michigan is a open carry but some people like to say now that you have a ccw/cpl you have to do that and do not have the right to open carry any longer.

Well, what some people like to say and what's reality/fact can be two different things. It's been mentioned countless times that a CPL instructor has told his class that with a CPL, a person can't carry open. That's 100%, grade-A bullcrap. In fact, with a CPL, a person can openly carry damn near everywhere. It only lessens carry restrictions.

Saying that since you have a concealed license you can't carry openly is like saying that now that you have a drivers license, you're not allowed to walk. Or having a motorcycle endorsement on your drivers license means you can't drive a car anymore. Simply, and wholly incorrect.

 

[hopnpop]

Eyes of the beholder

In many ways, if you "have" to draw your weapon there is no "winner". Unless you relish the thought of killing or maiming another human being.

You may prevail... but you haven't "won" anything.

Don't get me wrong - I carry for the same reasons you do. And I won't hesitate to draw and fire if the situation presents itself. But I will feel no sense of victory or glory if I prevail.

Glory? I don't think so. Victory? Quite definitely depending on how you look at it. If I have to use my weapon, it will be in defense of my life or the lives of my loved ones. I can say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't be doing a victory dance but I can also say that being alive, in itself, is a victory. A victory that I would honor by waking up each morning. I sure don't "relish the thought of killing or maiming another human being", but I do relish the thought of being able to wake up every day with my family intact. The fact that I was able to defend myself or loved ones from certain death, to me, is victory. Maybe not a victory to be celebrated, but to be appreciated.

 

[hopnpop]

As people, law abiding and otherwise, begin to see open carry as normal, perhaps then criminals will begin to target and prey upon open carriers.

Please note that I'm not saying it has happened, only that the possibility seems real enough to consider and weigh.

And I'm sure that trend is being carefully watched for. The argument against that concept is that statistically and logically, criminals look for easy prey. Criminals don't want to take unneccesary life-threatening chances either, not when they can find a vulnerable, easy, and safer target. If Joe is carrying a firearm on his hip and Pete appears to be unarmed, who would be the more likely target? I think the one who at least appears to be a lesser threat would be targeted 1st. This, of course, isn't fact, but it's logical and has been statistically proven (so far). Trends do change and an eye should be kept on things, but so far, so good....

 

[hopnpop]

So some of you feel "uncomfortable" OCing?

Might want to rethink your resolve to carry a firearm in the first place.

How "uncomfortable" are you going to feel when someone pulls a gun on you? If you can't manage the stress of simply carrying a firearm openly, how will you fare when the stress levels are off the charts?

If your afraid of exercising a right then you don't deserve it. I can see the tactical argument for CC, but CCing because of negative public reaction or fear of a false arrest turns my gut. The reason LEOs get away with misinformation and unlawful arrests is because people are afraid to stand up for what is a constitutional right.

Just because you have a gun doesn't mean your not a sheep, I prefer to be the wolf.

Slow your roll, Unfettered... it IS uncomfortable to OC at first because it's far from the norm. When I started OCing, I didn't want to be harassed or hassled by the police or civilians or anyone for that matter. I wanted to carry in a more comfortable way (summer weather/clothes) and knew it was legal to do so, and I did. It IS uncomfortable thinking that everyone's eyes will be on you, nervously watching your every move, unsure of your intent, etc. It IS uncomfortable knowing that OCing in some places will likely result in a MWAG call, not knowing if it'd be handled properly by the 911 operator, and resulting in police response in which case they'll be showing up with the preconcieved notion that you're a BG when you're not. It's unsettling! You don't know what to expect.

That said, I've been nearly full-time OC for a little over a year now. The concern with how people will react to it is quelled by experience. The concern over police reaction is quelled by experience and knowledge of the firearms laws that you're abiding by. CC is easy - you look like everyone else. OC is an appendage. With experience comes comfort. I have yet to have a negative police encounter, and the worst reaction I've gotten from the "public" is some glaring. Well, actually, there was a couple that changed tables and moved away from my wife and I at a restaurant. That's it. But at first? Definitely nervous.

Were you never nervous upon trying something new to you? Let alone something that is new to you, everyone seeing that you're doing it, but not knowing if everyone would think you're looney toons? C'mon.

BTW - don't you mean sheepdog, not wolf? The wolves are the ones who are AFTER the sheep, remember

 

[handgonnetoter]

Okay, okay. I give up. If someone wants to OC, it really does not befront me any. I will continue to carry concealed because I like keeping a lower profile. To each his/her own.:laugh:

 

[Unfettered Might]

Slow your roll, Unfettered... it IS uncomfortable to OC at first because it's far from the norm. When I started OCing, I didn't want to be harassed or hassled by the police or civilians or anyone for that matter. I wanted to carry in a more comfortable way (summer weather/clothes) and knew it was legal to do so, and I did. It IS uncomfortable thinking that everyone's eyes will be on you, nervously watching your every move, unsure of your intent, etc. It IS uncomfortable knowing that OCing in some places will likely result in a MWAG call, not knowing if it'd be handled properly by the 911 operator, and resulting in police response in which case they'll be showing up with the preconcieved notion that you're a BG when you're not. It's unsettling! You don't know what to expect.

That said, I've been nearly full-time OC for a little over a year now. The concern with how people will react to it is quelled by experience. The concern over police reaction is quelled by experience and knowledge of the firearms laws that you're abiding by. CC is easy - you look like everyone else. OC is an appendage. With experience comes comfort. I have yet to have a negative police encounter, and the worst reaction I've gotten from the "public" is some glaring. Well, actually, there was a couple that changed tables and moved away from my wife and I at a restaurant. That's it. But at first? Definitely nervous.

Were you never nervous upon trying something new to you? Let alone something that is new to you, everyone seeing that you're doing it, but not knowing if everyone would think you're looney toons? C'mon.

BTW - don't you mean sheepdog, not wolf? The wolves are the ones who are AFTER the sheep, remember

I guess the difference is I educated myself on the laws by looking them up myself instead of going by what everyone else says. It provided me the confidence to OC without concern for the legality of it. It also provided me the confidence to stand up to a LEO who tried to criminalize my OC once.

As for what other people think, I really don't care. I lost respect for the opinion of the public at large a long time ago, you know, back in school. The way I looked at it from the start was if they are scared, let them be, it's not my problem. If they can't reason it out by realizing that a criminal doesn't stand patiently in line with his sidearm in full view, then I guess they'll figure it out once I walk out the door and no one got shot.

Some say, "Oh we should be concerned, because if enough of them are scared then it'll ruin it for the rest of us." Let me be the first to say that's bull, 90% of the people out there are too concerned about the next episode of their favorite TV show or what they're doing that weekend to care about phoning legislators or trying to start bills to outlaw something that has been a part of my particular state's constitution and heritage far longer than anyone who's reading this has been alive. Good luck with that.

I never worried about the police because I know I'm not going to put my hand anywhere near my gun if an encounter occurs so I'm not going to get shot. Simple. Except for the one, all of my LEO encounters have been positive.

One time I had taken my grandmother to the hospital in her car. Turns out they wanted to keep her overnight because of some medication they were giving her, well I didn't want to take her car back because I wanted her to have it in the morning so she could leave without waiting for someone to come pick her up. So I called a friend to come pick me up and then realized on the way out the front door that my handgun was in her glove box. Problem, I need her keys to get my gun, but I can't take my gun into the hospital to give her keys back. Solution, I asked the LEO in the lobby to follow me out to the car and hold my handgun for me so I could go back in and give her keys back to her. He happily complied and until my friend got there, we had a great conversation about handgun models and he ended up writing down what model handgun I had because he liked it so much, he wanted one. Confidence is key.

Actually I have a problem with being nervous when doing something new. I tend to throw myself into it full on. First time on motorcycle, few hours later, low sided it. First time on jet ski, few hours later, I did half a back flip off of a wake and it landed on me.

I had a few people around me think I was off my rocker....at first. Then an incident occurred that had the effect of completely changing all of their minds, then they all realized why I carry. In fact, my sister who was vehemently against handguns now owns one. They suddenly realized that I was the one that was spot on and they were the ones living in a fantasy world where the police will always be able to protect you.

My point of the original post was that it is your right and if you act scared to exercise it, if you allow public opinion to deter you, then you leave it open to be taken away. If you are timid about OCing, then you will probably be timid about using it when the time comes and that will cost you your life.

As for the "wolf" comment, yeah I kinda didn't know the proper vernacular when I posted that, oops. Um, let me go back and edit that lol. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Unfettered Might]

Really? Can you cite a specific provision as well as case history of how it has been applied? I submit to you that if you come up to me from behind and tackle me to the ground for seemingly no reason, and I defend my self with a firearm, you would not then be justified in shooting me.

Actually I would. You fight physical force with physical force and deadly force with deadly force here. Your expected to be a man, no hiding behind your gun.

Here ya go;

503.060 Improper use of physical force in self-protection.
Notwithstanding the provisions of KRS 503.050, the use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is not justifiable when:

(1) The defendant is resisting an arrest by a peace officer, recognized to be acting under color of official authority and using no more force than reasonably necessary to effect the arrest, although the arrest is unlawful; or
(2) The defendant, with the intention of causing death or serious physical injury to the other person, provokes the use of physical force by such other person; or
(3) The defendant was the initial aggressor, except that his use of physical force upon the other person under this circumstance is justifiable when:
(a) His initial physical force was nondeadly and the force returned by the other is such that he believes himself to be in imminent danger of death or serious physical injury; or
(b) He withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person his intent to do so and the latter nevertheless continues or threatens the use of unlawful physical force.
Effective: January 1, 1975
History: Created 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 406, sec. 31, effective January 1, 1975.

Translation: I come up to you to fist fight and you pull your gun, I can defend myself with equal force and still enjoy immunity from criminal or civil prosecution.

 

[GOV5]

I still have a LOT of reading to do to catch up on this thread but I had to stop and commend you on your open vs. concealed take. I wish many others would see it the same way you do. But no, those who don't agree with open carry tend to speak against it...LOUDLY. Thanks for seeing it for what it is - a personal choice. Both methods of carry have pros and cons but in the end, I'm just glad that something is carried - period. With me, my decision to carry open or concealed is largely based on the weather. Go figure. lol

I like your attitude about open vs. concealed. Frankly, I'd like to be able to carry open. S.C. doesn't allow that option as yet. But even if they did, I'd carry open "lightly" concealed. LOL! I mean I'd try to use some kind of cover, but not be aggressive about it. I would try to wear an untucked open shirt, not buttoned, for example.

In the fall and winter, it isn't a problem at all. I think the open carry problem with the public is mainly Spring and Summer carry, where you aren't wearing a lot of clothing that could be used for cover. I wouldn't go to extremes to worry about someone seeing a gun, but I would make an effort...one that didn't get in my way of getting to that gun quickly, if I needed to. I wouldn't be concerned about someone noticing it by a wind that blew away the cover momentarily.

Frankly, to me, concealed carry is better than no carry, but it is a real pain...literally. I would love to have the Open Carry option.

 

[hopnpop]

I like your attitude about open vs. concealed. Frankly, I'd like to be able to carry open. S.C. doesn't allow that option as yet. But even if they did, I'd carry open "lightly" concealed. LOL! I mean I'd try to use some kind of cover, but not be aggressive about it. I would try to wear an untucked open shirt, not buttoned, for example.

In the fall and winter, it isn't a problem at all. I think the open carry problem with the public is mainly Spring and Summer carry, where you aren't wearing a lot of clothing that could be used for cover. I wouldn't go to extremes to worry about someone seeing a gun, but I would make an effort...one that didn't get in my way of getting to that gun quickly, if I needed to. I wouldn't be concerned about someone noticing it by a wind that blew away the cover momentarily.

Frankly, to me, concealed carry is better than no carry, but it is a real pain...literally. I would love to have the Open Carry option.

Well, then, I send my condolences out to you for not having the OC option. Hopefully S.C. will come around. Like you'd mentioned, seasonal conditions having bearing on how you carry. I get Michigan winters and I'm near Lk. Michigan so we get lake-effect conditions here. Concealing is easy under a winter coat. But as for warmer seasons, I agree that concealing is a pain. I tend to sweat a lot and I hate sweating directly on my gun, so to conceal I'd put on a "wife beater" (forgive the terminology) tucked in, under an untucked t-shirt, and carry my gun between the two. But who wants an extra layer of shirt when it's hot out? Not me. Going open is much more comfortable.

 

[CapGun]

Actually I would. You fight physical force with physical force and deadly force with deadly force here. Your expected to be a man, no hiding behind your gun.

Here ya go;

503.060 Improper use of physical force in self-protection.
Notwithstanding the provisions of KRS 503.050, the use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is not justifiable when:

(1) The defendant is resisting an arrest by a peace officer, recognized to be acting under color of official authority and using no more force than reasonably necessary to effect the arrest, although the arrest is unlawful; or
(2) The defendant, with the intention of causing death or serious physical injury to the other person, provokes the use of physical force by such other person; or
(3) The defendant was the initial aggressor, except that his use of physical force upon the other person under this circumstance is justifiable when:
(a) His initial physical force was nondeadly and the force returned by the other is such that he believes himself to be in imminent danger of death or serious physical injury; or
(b) He withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person his intent to do so and the latter nevertheless continues or threatens the use of unlawful physical force.
Effective: January 1, 1975
History: Created 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 406, sec. 31, effective January 1, 1975.

Translation: I come up to you to fist fight and you pull your gun, I can defend myself with equal force and still enjoy immunity from criminal or civil prosecution.

Great legwork!!!!!!!!!!!:yu:

 

[utimmer43]

...snip...

That seems to me to leave all kinds of room for interpretation. Who defines "non-deadly" force? Suppose, in your example of a fist fight, that you give me a good whoopin' and I drop to the ground and you continue to pummel me. There would come a point where your supposed "non-deadly" force becomes deadly. Unfortunately, at that point it would be too late for me to defend myself, 'cause I'm dead. At what point may I end that assault?

 

[S.Parker]

I have to say I would like to see more open carry every where, but the hassel from Law enforcement and the gun afraid just doesn't seem worth it. As for CC as a deterent if you are carring you are also some one who is situationally awear and not afraid. This makes you less likely to become a target. Criminals are lazy and mostly cowards if you are standing tall and look like you are going to be work for them they will pass you up for some one easier.

 

[tcox4freedom]

I have to say I would like to see more open carry every where, but the hassel from Law enforcement and the gun afraid just doesn't seem worth it. As for CC as a deterent if you are carring you are also some one who is situationally awear and not afraid. This makes you less likely to become a target. Criminals are lazy and mostly cowards if you are standing tall and look like you are going to be work for them they will pass you up for some one easier.

This is true even if you are NOT armed. (Criminals definitely want a easy mark!)

 

[The Dude]

That seems to me to leave all kinds of room for interpretation. Who defines "non-deadly" force? Suppose, in your example of a fist fight, that you give me a good whoopin' and I drop to the ground and you continue to pummel me. There would come a point where your supposed "non-deadly" force becomes deadly. Unfortunately, at that point it would be too late for me to defend myself, 'cause I'm dead. At what point may I end that assault?

my thoughts exactly.

if you dont think so then just ask the poor girl that recently had her head bashed in with those steel toe boots. it put her in a coma for several weeks. i think that situation would fall into the category of deadly force. especially if the aggressor persists.

and face it. most fist fights now days aint fist fights. they start that way, but quickly turn very violent. read the paper and watch the news if you dont think so. kids and most criminals use weapons now days cuz thats the cowards way out. and if i can prevent a hospital stay by pulling my gun then so be it. nobody said i have to squeeze the trigger. thats only if the moron insists on continuing. :angry:

 

[GOV5]

It must be REALLY different in Kentucky. I can't speak for "most" states, but in my state,S.C., if you use force against a person, like a fist fight, as you say, I can claim threat of bodily harm. Therefore I am in imminent danger, and I have the right to use deadly force. When you start a fist fight, to you, it might just be a sport. To most, it's a use of violent force that sometimes ends in permanent bodily injury, or death. Either way, a concealed carry person is going to pull a weapon on you.....and "most" are going to fire a couple of shots when they pull it. You'll never have a chance to get to your weapon to use it.

 

[Unfettered Might]

Great legwork!!!!!!!!!!!:yu:

You have to be half a lawyer to carry a gun these days, lol.

Thanks.

 

[Unfettered Might]

That seems to me to leave all kinds of room for interpretation. Who defines "non-deadly" force? Suppose, in your example of a fist fight, that you give me a good whoopin' and I drop to the ground and you continue to pummel me. There would come a point where your supposed "non-deadly" force becomes deadly. Unfortunately, at that point it would be too late for me to defend myself, 'cause I'm dead. At what point may I end that assault?

You've answered you own queston, once a man has dropped to the ground and is no longer defending himself and the other continues to attack, the force shows intent to cause serious physical injury or death. The law applies both ways.

You: (Falls to ground) I've had enough, I've had enough!
They: (continues attack)
You: (Pull firearm) Stop, don't make me shoot you!
They (continues attack)
You: (Bang Bang)

This doens't mean that you can fall to the ground right off the bat, you had better have some injuries to show to LE when they show up. This also doesn't factor in other things such as difference in age, disabilities, sex, number of opponents, ect.