The Open Carry Argument

[Unfettered Might]

Arrest charges under that scenario are NOT on your record. That is not correct info.

If an officer tries to arrest you for Open carry, and it is indeed legal where you live, you just inform him that it is not an arrestable act, and ask him tp call his supervisor to the scene. When the supervisor gets there, inform him/her that you will comply with their orders, but if they persist in arresting you, it will cost them and the city a lot of money and embarrassment, due to the lawsuit you will file, and the TV coverage of the Keystone Cop event.

I don't think you'll have a problem if this occurs and you handle it properly. You see, I hate lazy, ignorant cops as much as I hate criminals...because there is no excuse for either one.

+1000

I was in this very situation. Backwater LEO saw my holster, freaked out and said I couldn't OC.

This is Kentucky, he was very, very wrong.

Then when asked where the firearm was, I told him in was in the glove box (the only place inside a car that a firearm cannot be considered concealed by law), he said, "Well that's a concealed deadly weapon!!" The whole time he's freaking out and I was very calm and matter of fact. Told him to call his supervisor or he was facing a lawsuit by deprivation of rights under color of law(that really confused him). He said he wanted to secure the firearm and I told him no, that it was also a violation of the KRS to take my firearm unless I had committed a crime or he had RAS to think I was about to commit a crime I could be jailed for.

He went back to his patrol car, came back about 20 minutes later, handed me my speeding citation and told me to have a nice evening.

Guess he got educated by me and his supervisor that night.

 

[hardballer]

+1000
Guess he got educated by me and his supervisor that night.

Congrats and good job.

I've had fairly positive contact with public servants.(LEOs)

I've interacted with two small town chiefs of police while armed and several sheriff's deputies. One fella was a bit edgy so I spent quite a bit of the conversation calming him down. My truck was hit by a car and he was the officer on scene. He noticed two mags on my off side first and kinda freaked. Put his hand on the hilt of his gun and unsnapped it. That was tense but I assured him he was in no danger and I legally had the right to carry. I was his first OCer so I guess it went fairly well. There's more to it but some other time.

The other officer was un-informed and actually asked me if I needed a permit for "that thing". In Wisconsin, none are issued nor needed. So when you say you educated the officer, I can relate. The sheriffs deputy and I spent a half hour shooting the bull and never even broached the subject of OC.

If you think you're doing yourself a favor by vilifying OC, you're sadly mistaken. OC is just as valid if not more so than CC. It is your God given right to bear arms. People are afraid because the psycho, libtard, radical left, co-opted media says we are the bad people. We in fact are the good people. Folks, if you keep bowing to this liberal Alinsky crap, you will end up having your gun taken from you, chopped in half for publick safety and you will spend time in a re-education camp. I am only half joking with that last line.

 

[GOV5]

My CCW instructor was a retired LEO from our city. He said emphatically that cops do not know the law very well. They make mistakes all the time. That's the reason they get their butts kicked in court so much. People think it's all about smart attorney work. It's not. Most of it is common sense law that cops get wrong on the street.

 

[handgonnetoter]

Hey, thedoc96, I'm with you. I also live in Indiana and knew about OC here, but thought to myself "I think that it would just attract the wrong kind of attention". I have my CCW and that will have to be good enough for me. If the time came, Heaven forbid, that things got so bad that I was carrying on the outside of my clothes, I think the police would be dealing with bigger problems than me and how I am carrying!:biggrin:

 

[GOV5]

Hey, thedoc96, I'm with you. I also live in Indiana and knew about OC here, but thought to myself "I think that it would just attract the wrong kind of attention". I have my CCW and that will have to be good enough for me. If the time came, Heaven forbid, that things got so bad that I was carrying on the outside of my clothes, I think the police would be dealing with bigger problems than me and how I am carrying!:biggrin:

S.C. is not an Open Carry State, but you can bet if it was, I would be Open Carrying. Concealed Carry is a pain in the butt, as far as I 'm concerned. If it's the law, who cares? What did you mean by " I think it would attract the wrong kind of attention." ? If it's legal, there isn't any "wrong kind of attention", is there?

 

[NavyLCDR]

What did you mean by " I think it would attract the wrong kind of attention." ? If it's legal, there isn't any "wrong kind of attention", is there?

Open carriers will be shot first! Geez, don't you pay attention?!? That's what "they" have been telling us for years! Hasn't happened yet, but I am sure it will, because "they" say it will! :wacko:

 

[handgonnetoter]

GOV5, all I'm saying is that, unfortunately, we don't live in the old west anymore. I agree that CCW is a pain in the butt, but I think the police giving you a hard time because they don't like your gun out in the open is a bigger pain in the butt. I also agree that if open carry were perfectly fine then the police should not have any reason to mess with you, but I'm also smart enough to know that around here you will be approached and asked what is up even if the butt of your gun is printing a little through your oversized shirt. I know, its happened to me twice. Some of the police seem not to get too shook up over it, but there seem to be more that do. I don't like it, but that is the way it seems to be around my neck of the woods.

 

[NavyLCDR]

GOV5, all I'm saying is that, unfortunately, we don't live in the old west anymore. I agree that CCW is a pain in the butt, but I think the police giving you a hard time because they don't like your gun out in the open is a bigger pain in the butt. I also agree that if open carry were perfectly fine then the police should not have any reason to mess with you, but I'm also smart enough to know that around here you will be approached and asked what is up even if the butt of your gun is printing a little through your oversized shirt. I know, its happened to me twice. Some of the police seem not to get too shook up over it, but there seem to be more that do. I don't like it, but that is the way it seems to be around my neck of the woods.

And how do you expect that to change?

 

[hardballer]

Keep in mind that we all have accepted the "reasonable" infringements to the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution. "Reasonable" gun laws that have only served to disarm and endanger honest citizens. The Constitution is the only carry permit that is required but because we have allowed 'little by little' and 'give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile', we have surrendered our 'right' to bear arms till it is almost unrecognizable and bandied about as a mere privilage.

They would like you to think it is a privilege. This is patently false. It is your right, not given but written on your heart. It comes with the operating program we are equipped with from birth. As the Constitution says in 9th Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. They used the word 'enumerated' because it was assumed those rights were endowed by a higher power, in effect, already retained by "We The People".

We have been led to believe that we are now too sophisticated to need such crude devices such as tools for self defense. We are not to be trusted with our own self defense. Media wants the world to believe that our guns are dangerous. We are dangerous. More so than cars driven by drunks, or knife and club wielding thugs. Guns in fact, are the real problem.

So does it not anger you that you need a permit to exercise your right to carry or as the Constitution puts it, "bear arms"? Every activist judge that ruled against the Constitution because they felt it was 'reasonable to limit your right to bear arms needs to be re-schooled in Constitutional law at the least.

The Constitution is as constant as the morning star. It is black and white. No grey areas. Unchangeable. Shall not be infringed means, just that. If we continue to accept tiny little infringments in the name of "reasonable" we will soon not have a Constitution at all. Just a faint memory and one day an archeologist will dig up a digital copy and see what they missed.

 

[GOV5]

A very well phrased. and documented, post!!!

 

[GOV5]

"I don't like it, but that is the way it seems to be around my neck of the woods."

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX B N M

Then you need to make a call on the Mayor in "your neck of the woods", and inform him that if he doesn't start doing a better job of instructing the Keystone Cops he has on beat, about the law, he will be the recipient of a visit from the State Law Enforcement Division on what other laws he is breaking in his "neck of the woods".

If you aren't going to stand up for liberties that those before us have fought so dearly, you don't deserve to be carrying a gun anyway.

 

[handgonnetoter]

GOV5. The Mayor in my city I did not vote for. He is on Bloomberg's Mayors against guns club, or was at one time. He seems more worried about getting gambling casinos in this town than anything else - needless to say I don't like the guy at all. You say that if I don't carry on the outside then I really don't deserve the right to carry at all - cheap shot. I spent four years in the Marines carrying more than just a handgun on the outside, I think I deserve the right. Lets just say our levels of resistance to oppression take paths of their own. Some guys feel that if there are no laws saying they cannot carry open, then that is what they do. I spent the time and money to get a CCW because that is what I choose to do, nothing more than that. I fully understand your points, and will do what I can to defend your right to have those choices. In the end it is not just about the gun issue, it is all about the Constitution issue. Thanks for your views though, I am finding out that at least there are still some people in our society that still have their brains in gear. Take care.:laugh:

 

[GOV5]

GOV5. The Mayor in my city I did not vote for. He is on Bloomberg's Mayors against guns club, or was at one time. He seems more worried about getting gambling casinos in this town than anything else - needless to say I don't like the guy at all. You say that if I don't carry on the outside then I really don't deserve the right to carry at all - cheap shot. I spent four years in the Marines carrying more than just a handgun on the outside, I think I deserve the right. Lets just say our levels of resistance to oppression take paths of their own. Some guys feel that if there are no laws saying they cannot carry open, then that is what they do. I spent the time and money to get a CCW because that is what I choose to do, nothing more than that. I fully understand your points, and will do what I can to defend your right to have those choices. In the end it is not just about the gun issue, it is all about the Constitution issue. Thanks for your views though, I am finding out that at least there are still some people in our society that still have their brains in gear. Take care.:laugh:

Well, I feel like an idiot now. And I deserve a butt kickin'. I have made a wise a$$ comment to a United States Marine. That in itself can bring you bodily harm. LOL!!

Please accept my apology for my tone. It does surprise me that, however, that a Marine that defended this Nation would allow some wimp-a$$ mayor to use his cops for shaking down legal gun owners and carriers. I thought that would aggravate you beyond belief. I am in awe of your self-control. I don't think I could do it.

 

[CapGun]

Well written and very well thought out. Without a doubt the best argument and maybe the only argument for open carry is deterrence as you have pointed out.
That goes well with your goal of not being a victim and more so of not being put in the position of having to shoot anyone.
Ayoob is right when he mentions throwing the BG a few bucks. His whole point is that it just might avoid having to answer stupid questions like why you shot someone 6 times. :sarcastic:This is just another tool in avoidance or not becoming a further victim, like crossing to the other side of the street. That would be the whole point.
Just some personal stories... I was taking a friend to the range to go shooting. I was driving. Another driver made a very rude move and cut me off as he was coming out of a side street. My friend actually got annoyed and honked my horn! I stopped him and then said that I was carrying. I told him that if I was not carrying I might have honked my horn and even "saluted" the rude driver. Since I was carrying I told him I was very much more tolerant and usually just laughed to myself when others act like jerks. My point was that I was in no way going to do anything that might elevate a silly situation into something serious. Not while I am carrying! Just brought this up to enforce the idea that most of us here are responsible and would not jeopardize our rights, our lives of the lives of others.
Where I live open carry is legal. No need for a permit or anything. Just wondering if the bad guys OC'd how would we know the difference until it was too late. :fie:
I think that is a funny thought.
I have seen open carry and get a kick out of it. I am a bit private and prefer to carry concealed. You know..don't ask, don't tell sort of thing. No extra attention.
I recently was in a Turkey Hill (like 7-11) and a guy came in with a 1911 on his hip.
He squatted down to pick out a newspaper. The holster and butt of his gun sort of jutted away a bit from his hip. Not crazy or want to try this but my thought was that I bet I could get that gun from him quickly, maybe before he realized what was happening. Just wonder if there are others out there with bad intentions that would act on something like that. The point about criminals is that as stated they are already on the path of bad decisions. We think rationally, they do not. They get away with a lot simply because they do things in situations that none of us would without much more planning. Many times they act on impulse. We'd plan and re-plan a robbery, the average street urchin would just do it without so much planning.
Anyway it was a great essay and made very cogent points.
Great site here. Always a chance to learn more.

 

[bnhcomputing]

GOV5, all I'm saying is that, unfortunately, we don't live in the old west anymore. I agree that CCW is a pain in the butt, but I think the police giving you a hard time because they don't like your gun out in the open is a bigger pain in the butt. I also agree that if open carry were perfectly fine then the police should not have any reason to mess with you, but I'm also smart enough to know that around here you will be approached and asked what is up even if the butt of your gun is printing a little through your oversized shirt. I know, its happened to me twice. Some of the police seem not to get too shook up over it, but there seem to be more that do. I don't like it, but that is the way it seems to be around my neck of the woods.

WOW! So do the police get all shook up around Blacks, Hispanics, Gays, or any other minorities around your neck of the woods? Seems to me, the police in your neck of the woods need a good old fashioned arse whoopin' in court to help educate them. Once you garnishing their wages, that's when they'll realize the really DO work for you. :sarcastic:

 

[laws restrict freedom]

I first must say that I openly apologize for not reading this thread, but the title intrigued me. I remember watching on TV (I'm from MA) some sort of public gathering being televised on TV in NH and seeing a gentleman there with a sidearm on his person, outside his coat, in plain view of everyone.

My IMMEDIATE reaction was that it made me feel SAFE imagining that's how I would feel with this man near me if I were at the event. He was an older, conservative looking gentleman and that might have had something to do with my level of feelings of safety, I can not be sure, but I am sure that I felt SAFE and PROTECTED by seeing a citizen carrying a firearm at a public gathering.

It's not exactly the place one would choose to say, kidnap a child and run if u were in this mans sights, would it be? Not exactly the place to grab an old woman's purse, knock her to the ground, and run.....

His mere presence made me feel safer and I wasn't even there, I was a couple hundred miles away... and I'm not a small person at 6'2" and 240lbs while attending the gym on a regular basis.. .because after all... a muscle can not stop a bullet.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Yeah! "laws restrict freedom" gets it!

 

[Unfettered Might]

Well written and very well thought out. Without a doubt the best argument and maybe the only argument for open carry is deterrence as you have pointed out.
That goes well with your goal of not being a victim and more so of not being put in the position of having to shoot anyone.
Ayoob is right when he mentions throwing the BG a few bucks. His whole point is that it just might avoid having to answer stupid questions like why you shot someone 6 times. :sarcastic:This is just another tool in avoidance or not becoming a further victim, like crossing to the other side of the street. That would be the whole point.
Just some personal stories... I was taking a friend to the range to go shooting. I was driving. Another driver made a very rude move and cut me off as he was coming out of a side street. My friend actually got annoyed and honked my horn! I stopped him and then said that I was carrying. I told him that if I was not carrying I might have honked my horn and even "saluted" the rude driver. Since I was carrying I told him I was very much more tolerant and usually just laughed to myself when others act like jerks. My point was that I was in no way going to do anything that might elevate a silly situation into something serious. Not while I am carrying! Just brought this up to enforce the idea that most of us here are responsible and would not jeopardize our rights, our lives of the lives of others.
Where I live open carry is legal. No need for a permit or anything. Just wondering if the bad guys OC'd how would we know the difference until it was too late. :fie:
I think that is a funny thought.
I have seen open carry and get a kick out of it. I am a bit private and prefer to carry concealed. You know..don't ask, don't tell sort of thing. No extra attention.
I recently was in a Turkey Hill (like 7-11) and a guy came in with a 1911 on his hip.
He squatted down to pick out a newspaper. The holster and butt of his gun sort of jutted away a bit from his hip. Not crazy or want to try this but my thought was that I bet I could get that gun from him quickly, maybe before he realized what was happening. Just wonder if there are others out there with bad intentions that would act on something like that. The point about criminals is that as stated they are already on the path of bad decisions. We think rationally, they do not. They get away with a lot simply because they do things in situations that none of us would without much more planning. Many times they act on impulse. We'd plan and re-plan a robbery, the average street urchin would just do it without so much planning.
Anyway it was a great essay and made very cogent points.
Great site here. Always a chance to learn more.

Very good points on not escalating a situation, many SD laws are written in such a way that your defense against criminal and civil prosecution is removed if you are the aggressor. An interesting distinction is made here in Kentucky though. I can choose to get into a physical fight with someone, even starting it. But, if the other person takes it to a lethal level, I can still employ lethal force in return and retain my legal defense.

The thing about the gun poking out thing is, an OCer by necessity has to be more aware of their surroundings. If they are not, they shouldn't be OCing. There's a good chance he knew exactly where you were at and what you were doing. I'm a firm believer in a retention style holster for just that reason. If someone is lucky enough to get close enough to make a grab, all they will get is an elbow to the bridge of their nose and they'll get to look down the barrel of my gun once they clear the water from their eyes, while they wait for the police to arrive.

 

[Ringo]

I'm a firm believer in a retention style holster for just that reason. If someone is lucky enough to get close enough to make a grab, all they will get is an elbow to the bridge of their nose and they'll get to look down the barrel of my gun once they clear the water from their eyes, while they wait for the police to arrive.

You got that right. :biggrin:

 

[utimmer43]

An interesting distinction is made here in Kentucky though. I can choose to get into a physical fight with someone, even starting it. But, if the other person takes it to a lethal level, I can still employ lethal force in return and retain my legal defense.

Really? Can you cite a specific provision as well as case history of how it has been applied? I submit to you that if you come up to me from behind and tackle me to the ground for seemingly no reason, and I defend my self with a firearm, you would not then be justified in shooting me.