Regarding Freddie Gray and the Baltimore Police cover up

[SR9]

It isn't that simple. 2 degree murder isn't the only charge considered.

Read all:

Freddie Gray Death: These Are the Charges 6 Baltimore Officers Face - NBC News

Freddie Gray had a long rap sheet and was arrested for possessing a switch blade the day he died.

 

[DavidWhite]

Freddie Gray had a long rap sheet and was arrested for possessing a switch blade the day he died.

Well then, you make it sound as if he "got what he deserved".
We better hurry up and get National CONSTITUTIONAL Reciprocity passed so you can bring your gun wherever you go!
Don't want you to feel too insecure without it!

 

[vernsimpson]

From all the charges it sounds like they are throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks! When Sharpton and the Mayor had their "closed door" conference I knew that the cops would get charged! Now that the prosecutor has charged them she had bettered deliver or else she will be on the rioters hit list!

But in the end it will be Bush's fault, the GOP, the NRA and Global Warming for all the racism in the Police Departments across the country. Sharpton is calling for all police stations be closed and there be a "National Police" Force across the USA!!

The "Left" NEVER lets go of any idea once it is put forth!!!! If those of you think that the police are bad now, wait til Sharpton gets his way!!!!

 

[BluesStringer]

It isn't that simple. 2 degree murder isn't the only charge considered.

Read all:

Freddie Gray Death: These Are the Charges 6 Baltimore Officers Face - NBC News

Freddie Gray had a long rap sheet and was arrested for possessing a switch blade the day he died.

Your State Prosecutor said during her press conference announcing the charges, that Gray's knife was not a switchblade, which makes his arrest, and everything that flowed from it (his death) illegal.

The driver is being charged with 2nd degree murder. I never said that was the only charge considered. He's also charged with manslaughter and a gaggle of other JBT (Jack Booted Thug - no, "thug" is not a racist word) charges, but the top charge is second degree murder, and the switchblade charge against Gray was a manufactured charge of which all of the cops involved with lying about it are being held accountable for that too.

Blues

 

[Deanimator]

It isn't that simple. 2 degree murder isn't the only charge considered.

Freddie Gray had a long rap sheet and was arrested for possessing a switch blade the day he died.

Which apparently by Maryland law WASN'T a "switchblade".

This isn't Brazil. A "long rap sheet" doesn't give the cops a license to kill.

 

[Twistedcowboy01]

From all the charges it sounds like they are throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks! When Sharpton and the Mayor had their "closed door" conference I knew that the cops would get charged! Now that the prosecutor has charged them she had bettered deliver or else she will be on the rioters hit list!

But in the end it will be Bush's fault, the GOP, the NRA and Global Warming for all the racism in the Police Departments across the country. Sharpton is calling for all police stations be closed and there be a "National Police" Force across the USA!!

The "Left" NEVER lets go of any idea once it is put forth!!!! If those of you think that the police are bad now, wait til Sharpton gets his way!!!!

Very well said. Anything Sharpton gets involved with is instantly tainted and unreliable. I'm sure Obama will jump on the National Police Force idea. It will only have one requirement for hiring: be a left wing stooge. Then he will have the internal army he so desperately wants. I wasn't there so I don't know what to think about the charges. Initial evidence that was leaked appeared to condemn them. Later leaked evidence seems to, at least somewhat, exonerate them. They should have put his worthless drug dealing butt into restraint, more than a seatbelt. But any charge that implies intentional death is ridiculous. Negligent death.....maybe, but they clearly didn't intend to kill him.

 

[vernsimpson]

Any time the race card is played by the media and any of the parties involved in any incident I start to question the story that is coming out.

Now there is some city councilman in Baltimore who is saying that the word "thug" is the new "N" word! Amazing! Soon if we address a black person as Mr, Mrs or Ms that will be racist too!

 

[BluesStringer]

Very well said. Anything Sharpton gets involved with is instantly tainted and unreliable. I'm sure Obama will jump on the National Police Force idea. It will only have one requirement for hiring: be a left wing stooge. Then he will have the internal army he so desperately wants. I wasn't there so I don't know what to think about the charges. Initial evidence that was leaked appeared to condemn them. Later leaked evidence seems to, at least somewhat, exonerate them. They should have put his worthless drug dealing butt into restraint, more than a seatbelt. But any charge that implies intentional death is ridiculous. Negligent death.....maybe, but they clearly didn't intend to kill him.

A charge of "depraved heart second degree murder" is what Goodson will be indicted for after the grand jury rubber-stamps the prosecutor's request of them. The quoted term apparently is settled law in MD as a result of at least one State Appeals Court ruling, Simpkins v. State in 1991. The ruling contemplates four "qualifying malevolent states of mind," from which "malice" may be inferred: "(1) the intent to kill, (2) the intent to do grievous bodily harm, (3) the intent to do an act under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life (depraved heart), or (4) the intent to commit a dangerous felony." While "malicious intent" is nearly always a requirement for 2nd degree murder, it is true that the "depraved heart" part of what constitutes malice in MD is a lower threshold than most other jurisdictions, but it is a threshold that has been in place since at least Simpkins v. State in 1991. From the same case the court noted:

"A depraved heart murder is often described as a wanton and willful killing. The term `depraved heart' means something more than conduct amounting to a high or unreasonable risk to human life. The perpetrator must [or reasonably should] realize the risk his behavior has created to the extent that his conduct may be termed willful. Moreover, the conduct must contain an element of viciousness or contemptuous disregard for the value of human life which conduct characterizes that behavior as wanton."

Continuing, and quoting in part from 2 Wharton's, supra, § 143, at 197, the Court added: "The critical feature of `depraved heart' murder is that the act in question be committed `under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.'"

It is the "extreme indifference to the value of human life" that the denial of medical attention, failure to secure the prisoner with a seat-belt, and intentional "rough ride" that has been alleged demonstrates, that the prosecutor is basing the 2nd degree murder charge on. The charge appears to this observer to be perfectly well within the definitions of qualifying elements that MD state law provides for.

In short, in the case of MD, the words "intent" and "depraved heart" work equally as well to qualify a defendant for a charge of 2nd degree murder, and the courts have not struck those equally-qualifying states of mind down in the last 24 years since they last upheld them.

Personally, I seriously doubt that Goodson will ever be convicted of 2nd degree murder. He may not even ever be indicted on that charge. But that a prosecutor has (finally) sought the highest charges she could conceivably get against LEOs who all showed extreme indifference of human life to Freddie Gray, is a very small step in the right direction of bringing charging parity between non-badged and badged citizens closer in line with each other. Badges don't give LEOs special rights, or at least shouldn't, especially when loss of life is at issue. It appears that this prosecutor agrees, and I applaud her for that, whether or not Goodson is actually ever indicted on a 2nd degree murder charge.

And I have yet to see where it's been reported that the prosecutor has met with Al Sharpton. That was the Mayor, and shame on her for allowing him anywhere near the official investigation, or the officials involved in the case. But the Mayor's meeting(s?) with Sharpton has no bearing that I'm aware of on what the prosecutor's decision-making processes were, and I feel confident that his name, nor his influences, will come in as evidence during any trial(s) of any of the officers.

Blues

 

[SR9]

The Prosecutor bypassed the Grand Jury, because the Mayor, Al Sharpton, and the Prosecutor were afraid the Grand Jury would not find enough evidence to bring serious charges against the Police Officers. They wanted to make sue this went to a trial and they got the political "creds" for it. The Mayor wants to run for Gov. of Md. net election, then on to the White House.

 

[Twistedcowboy01]

A charge of "depraved heart second degree murder" is what Goodson will be indicted for after the grand jury rubber-stamps the prosecutor's request of them. The quoted term apparently is settled law in MD as a result of at least one State Appeals Court ruling, Simpkins v. State in 1991. The ruling contemplates four "qualifying malevolent states of mind," from which "malice" may be inferred: "(1) the intent to kill, (2) the intent to do grievous bodily harm, (3) the intent to do an act under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life (depraved heart), or (4) the intent to commit a dangerous felony." While "malicious intent" is nearly always a requirement for 2nd degree murder, it is true that the "depraved heart" part of what constitutes malice in MD is a lower threshold than most other jurisdictions, but it is a threshold that has been in place since at least Simpkins v. State in 1991. From the same case the court noted:



It is the "extreme indifference to the value of human life" that the denial of medical attention, failure to secure the prisoner with a seat-belt, and intentional "rough ride" that has been alleged demonstrates, that the prosecutor is basing the 2nd degree murder charge on. The charge appears to this observer to be perfectly well within the definitions of qualifying elements that MD state law provides for.

In short, in the case of MD, the words "intent" and "depraved heart" work equally as well to qualify a defendant for a charge of 2nd degree murder, and the courts have not struck those equally-qualifying states of mind down in the last 24 years since they last upheld them.

Personally, I seriously doubt that Goodson will ever be convicted of 2nd degree murder. He may not even ever be indicted on that charge. But that a prosecutor has (finally) sought the highest charges she could conceivably get against LEOs who all showed extreme indifference of human life to Freddie Gray, is a very small step in the right direction of bringing charging parity between non-badged and badged citizens closer in line with each other. Badges don't give LEOs special rights, or at least shouldn't, especially when loss of life is at issue. It appears that this prosecutor agrees, and I applaud her for that, whether or not Goodson is actually ever indicted on a 2nd degree murder charge.

And I have yet to see where it's been reported that the prosecutor has met with Al Sharpton. That was the Mayor, and shame on her for allowing him anywhere near the official investigation, or the officials involved in the case. But the Mayor's meeting(s?) with Sharpton has no bearing that I'm aware of on what the prosecutor's decision-making processes were, and I feel confident that his name, nor his influences, will come in as evidence during any trial(s) of any of the officers.

Blues

I won't argue any of the points you made. I'm not an expert in Maryland law. But she made one statement that absolutely undermines her credibility. She said, "There will be no peace without justice." Inflammatory much? And that is NOT her job. Her job is to examine the evidence and make decisions based solely on the evidence. That statement absolutely certifies she is not doing this.

 

[Deanimator]

The Prosecutor bypassed the Grand Jury, because the Mayor, Al Sharpton, and the Prosecutor were afraid the Grand Jury would not find enough evidence to bring serious charges against the Police Officers. They wanted to make sue this went to a trial and they got the political "creds" for it. The Mayor wants to run for Gov. of Md. net election, then on to the White House.

The mayor and Sharpton being POSes AND the cops being thugs are NOT mutually exclusive conditions. It's entirely possible... indeed overwhelmingly LIKELY to be true.

 

[vernsimpson]

The Prosecutor bypassed the Grand Jury, because the Mayor, Al Sharpton, and the Prosecutor were afraid the Grand Jury would not find enough evidence to bring serious charges against the Police Officers. They wanted to make sue this went to a trial and they got the political "creds" for it. The Mayor wants to run for Gov. of Md. net election, then on to the White House.

Say it isn't so!!!!

POLITICS could not be a factor here!!!! :sarcastic:

 

[BluesStringer]

The Prosecutor bypassed the Grand Jury, because the Mayor, Al Sharpton, and the Prosecutor were afraid the Grand Jury would not find enough evidence to bring serious charges against the Police Officers.

Do you have a link substantiating that assertion? All I mean is the part about Mosby having already made the decision to bypass the grand jury. Just because she didn't announce what her next move is doesn't mean she can't go to the grand jury and recommend they indict on all the charges she articulated today in the press conference. If she does bypass the grand jury, she will have to convince a judge instead that her probable cause statement should be upheld during a charging hearing. There's a saying that a "prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich," which is meant to imply that grand juries are famous (or infamous as the case may be) for doing whatever they perceive the prosecutor is asking of them. There is no such saying relating to judges acting in similar subservience to prosecutors for a reason - because typically, they don't.

I won't argue any of the points you made. I'm not an expert in Maryland law.

Nor am I, but I do know that the elements for any and all crimes vary widely from state to state, and I heard the prosecutor refer during her press conference to "depraved heart 2nd degree murder," so I went looking for it. Found it in both the statutory and judicial definitions sections of MD law, and also found some law-school professor's analysis of how that particular charge is quite unique among the states, and represents a lower threshold than most 2nd degree murder statutes.

No one needs to be an expert, they just have to possess a sincere desire to understand the words spoken at a press conference announcing the basis for so many cops being charged with such serious crimes. I am sincerely interested is all.

But she made one statement that absolutely undermines her credibility. She said, "There will be no peace without justice." Inflammatory much?

I found no such reference in the transcripts of her press conference. The only two references to justice and peace went like this:

To the people of Baltimore and the demonstrators across America: I heard your call for ‘No justice, no peace.’ Your peace is sincerely needed as I work to deliver justice on behalf of this young man."

To those that are angry, hurt or have their own experiences of injustice at the hands of police officers I urge you to channel that energy peacefully as we prosecute this case. I have heard your calls for ‘No justice, no peace,’ however your peace is sincerely needed as I work to deliver justice on behalf of Freddie Gray.

Those actual quotes are very different than the text that you put quotation marks around. Care to share where you found that "quote" by Marilyn Mosby, or are you willing to admit that you didn't hear what you thought you heard? Or were you referring to something she said other than in the press conference? And if so, a link to go along with your quotation would be much appreciated.

Look, I don't like all that touchy-feely pandering to the rabble who have been doing their best to destroy their own community either. There is no doubt in my mind that I would agree with almost nothing else that Marilyn Mosby ever says about politics, race relations, the causes of poverty or the "need" for more "investment" in the same communities that residents burn first before even thinking about channeling their energies towards real and positive change. But I am of the belief that policing in America, in all of America, regardless of racial or economic makeup, has been spinning wildly out of control for three or four decades now. The only way to get a handle on it without an actual revolution is for the powers that be to cause a revolution in the level of accountability police are held to. Mosby showed herself as one who is willing to take a stab at starting that revolution today. I applaud her on that basis alone, and leave it to the more low-brow among us to keep focusing on the riots, the skin color of the rioters, or the po' po' pitiful popo who face up to 30 years in prison now for a charge that you already said you had no argument with my explanation of.

And that is NOT her job. Her job is to examine the evidence and make decisions based solely on the evidence. That statement absolutely certifies she is not doing this.

Her actual probable cause statement absolutely certifies that she is doing her job, as she went charge by charge explaining how each one was justified due to the cops' own actions, or lack thereof as the case may be, at specific points within a detailed time-line. I could do without all the extraneous political and agenda-driven tripe too, but the probable cause statement was awesomeness personified as far as I'm concerned.

Unless you can find the quote that you put quotation marks around, the above statement absolutely certifies that you are not viewing her charging these officers objectively at all, and that's even true after saying that you "won't argue any of the points" I made, which were all based in the law, with only a very minor bit of opining about me doubting that Goodson will ever actually be convicted of 2nd degree murder.

I'd be careful how you use quotation marks from now on. There are actually people who can still read the words inside of them, and verify for themselves if they're quoted accurately or not.

Blues

 

[Twistedcowboy01]

Blues, I don't have a link for you about my quote because I listened to her press conference on the radio and I heard those exact words. I cannot explain the transcript, other then this would not be the first time such a thing was altered or left out. I assure you I heard those exact words. I don't throw things out that I hear second hand. I don't make things up. But the quote you listed is just as bad. "I hear your call for no justice, no peace.... As I work for justice on behalf of this young man." Really?!?! She should be seeking justice, period. Not justice FOR a drug dealer. The charge of false imprisonment is beyond laughable. So now police can't transport (assuming safely) an arrestee at all? How they did it is irrelevant, that charge says they can't do it at all. What on earth is their job then? You indirectly calling me a liar does not impress me.
Again, I wasn't there and I don't know exactly what happened, I just hope these six officers can get a fair trial. The Baltimore police union is already questioning her ability to try the case fairly because she has associations with the attorney for the Grey family (including his maximum allowed donation to her campaign for her current job.) I do think a change of venue is the only way they can receive a chance at a fair trial.
You have obviously made up your mind already that these officers are totally guilty. And that's fine, you have that right. I'm just glad you won't be on the jury.

 

[SR9]

HEY BLUES,
Check todays news. Not only has Mosby passed on a grand jury, but her husband, who is on Baltimore city council, prejudging the case a making outrageous anti-police statements to the media. And, did you know, the Gray family lawyer(Murphy) and spokesman was a high dollar contributor to the Mayor's election campaign. Lots of questionable/possible collusion gin on here...
Also, may it be noticed that 3 of the 6 police are black.

 

[BluesStringer]

Blues, I don't have a link for you about my quote because I listened to her press conference on the radio and I heard those exact words.

Sorry, no you didn't.

I cannot explain the transcript, other then this would not be the first time such a thing was altered or left out.

That's a strong accusation against the New York Daily News who describes the page that I linked to as....

A complete transcript of State Attorney Marilyn Mosby’s press conference announcing criminal charges against six officers with Baltimore Police Department in the death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray:

When a news organization represents that they are publishing a verbatim transcript of something someone said, they would be opening themselves up to all kinds of legal penalties if they were to alter it in any way, including leaving anything out.

I assure you I heard those exact words.

I assure you, you didn't.

I don't throw things out that I hear second hand. I don't make things up.

Uh huh.

Here's a link to the whole presser, including the several questions she took for the last few minutes. No commentary is added before, during or after her time at the podium by anyone. You keep saying you heard "those exact words," which, just to remind everybody what you allege, was this: "There will be no peace without justice." So here ya go, find those exact words.

Raw video: State's Attorney press conference - officers charged | Maryland News - WBAL Home

It's alright to admit you were mistaken, but keeping on with the notion that you aren't is damaging your credibility with each successive assertion that you "heard those exact words." Clearly, you didn't.

But the quote you listed is just as bad. "I hear your call for no justice, no peace.... As I work for justice on behalf of this young man." Really?!?! She should be seeking justice, period. Not justice FOR a drug dealer.

Gee, selective quoting much? Here's her whole quote, where she says unequivocally that she needs the public's peace so that she can pursue justice, which I already quoted for you before, but apparently, you just don't want to hear the truth:

To the people of Baltimore and the demonstrators across America: I heard your call for ‘No justice, no peace.’ Your peace is sincerely needed as I work to deliver justice on behalf of this young man."

To those that are angry, hurt or have their own experiences of injustice at the hands of police officers I urge you to channel that energy peacefully as we prosecute this case. I have heard your calls for ‘No justice, no peace,’ however your peace is sincerely needed as I work to deliver justice on behalf of Freddie Gray.

The charge of false imprisonment is beyond laughable. So now police can't transport (assuming safely) an arrestee at all? How they did it is irrelevant, that charge says they can't do it at all. What on earth is their job then? You indirectly calling me a liar does not impress me.

I allowed for the possibility that you made an honest mistake, and provided the transcripts with direct quotes copied and pasted for you to verify that it was indeed a mistaken utterance. Only now, after multiple claims that you heard what was not said, as well as the selective quoting to substantiate an untrue accusation against the prosecutor, does it appear that you are lying about it for some reason. I make no claim of knowledge about the reasons for your intransigence in the face of irrefutable proof, but you are indeed intransigent in putting words in the prosecutor's mouth that she never said.

And it is utter nonsense to assert that the charge of false imprisonment means that now cops can't transport an arrestee at all. It was false imprisonment because the cops arrested Gray on a false charge. He didn't have a switchblade, and the knife he did have was lawful for him to have under Maryland law. Cops who make up false charges and arrest someone based on them are falsely imprisoning the subject, and in this case, they falsely imprisoned him right to death!

Again, I wasn't there and I don't know exactly what happened, I just hope these six officers can get a fair trial. The Baltimore police union is already questioning her ability to try the case fairly because she has associations with the attorney for the Grey family (including his maximum allowed donation to her campaign for her current job.) I do think a change of venue is the only way they can receive a chance at a fair trial.

She also has five generations deep of personal family history in law enforcement. Seems like a set of equalized potential conflicts of interest to me.

I'll leave it to a judge to determine if a change of venue is necessary in order to provide a fair trial. I won't have a problem either way as long as most, preferably all, of it actually goes to trial.

You have obviously made up your mind already that these officers are totally guilty. And that's fine, you have that right. I'm just glad you won't be on the jury.

I have only made up my mind that policing in America is out of control, and that the only way to get it back under control is for prosecutors to actually start prosecuting cops who give the freakin' mountain of probable cause that these six did on a wide variety and different levels of charges.

I am equally glad that someone who repeats over and over again incriminating words attributed to a prosecutor who never said them, won't be on that jury either.

Blues

 

[Twistedcowboy01]

Well, Blues. You can think whatever you want. I won't continue to be called a liar by you. What SR9 just posted backs me up. This conversation is over. Good day and enjoy your freedom to speak whatever you want. Thank a veteran for it. I'm done.

 

[SR9]

Heard a statistic on the news yesterday that said in 1971 there were 91 blacks killed by police officers in America, in 2014 there were only 8. So where is this big increase in police killings of blacks?

 

[BluesStringer]

HEY BLUES,
Check todays news. Not only has Mosby passed on a grand jury,

If she has the autonomous authority to do that, then what's the problem? She still has to go before a judge to submit her statement of probable cause, which is a much more difficult mountain to climb than through a grand jury. If you think the cops are being railroaded, you should be thrilled that she's going this route.

but her husband, who is on Baltimore city council, prejudging the case a making outrageous anti-police statements to the media.

No doubt, Mrs. Mosby should shut him up before he poisons the well. A judge has the authority to decide if she's got legitimate conflicts of interest to, so like I said, you should be thrilled that she has chosen that route.

And, did you know, the Gray family lawyer(Murphy) and spokesman was a high dollar contributor to the Mayor's election campaign. Lots of questionable/possible collusion gin on here...

She's an elected politician. They all rely on contributions to get elected. I don't like the way the system works WAY more than you don't like it, but the fact is, I don't recall you or the supporters of Darren Wilson digging into Prosecutor McCulloch's campaign donations background when he quite literally converted his DA's office into a suite of defense attorneys for Wilson in the grand jury proceedings. McCulloch's office never even asked the GJ for an indictment. The whole proceeding was nothing but Kabuki Theater on the taxpayer's dime, but you had no problem with that, did you?

Let's try to keep it real here SR9. Just admit it. You will always side with cops no matter how egregious or brutal their alleged offenses are.

Also, may it be noticed that 3 of the 6 police are black.

Good. That eliminates the appearance by the black prosecutor of going after only white cops.

Blues

 

[Deanimator]

Heard a statistic on the news yesterday that said in 1971 there were 91 blacks killed by police officers in America, in 2014 there were only 8. So where is this big increase in police killings of blacks?

But you have to understand the falsity of the narratives on BOTH sides:

• Al Sharpton doesn't care about Freddie Gray. A THOUSAND Freddie Grays can die, so long as he can make money off their corpses.
• The police and their supporters don't care if the police falsely arrest or even rob and savagely beat people, even those as pure as the driven snow. They want to be above the law and beyond all accountability.

Morally, they're indistinguishable.