Regarding Freddie Gray and the Baltimore Police cover up

[JimTh]

Now then I live in the Washington Metro area so I get to see much more news and video regarding the death of Freddie Gray than many folks on this forum. Now the cover up begins...let me illustrate my point please.

Anyone that watched the video of Freddie (by the way...he was not a little angel) being dragged to the cop transport needs to stop and think about what they saw and what it most likely means. Now some would say he was resisting arrest and that is why his legs and feet were not moving...kind of like non violent protesters during the "occupy movement" were resisting. Maybe it is just me...but black dudes don't resist arrest that way...they run...which is what Freddie did before he was tackled. When they dragged him to the transport watch what happens when they get him at the rear door. Freddie tries to raise his leg to step up but he can't...watch it closely. Then the cops lift his legs to get him in the transport...watch it closely. If Freddie is resisting why is he allowing the cops to lift his legs to get him into the transport....hmmmmmm? His legs are limp...that is why the cops have to lift them up...he has a severed spine somewhere....duhhhhh. Sounds to me like a pissed off cop that knew exactly what he was doing.

Now they want to say he was thrashing about in the wagon and that is how he severed his own spine. Anyone on this forum buying that crap. Have you ever tried to snap your own neck? Especially in a confined space. Your neck muscles are too powerful to allow you to do it yourself...duhhhhh. Go ahead...try it. I used to own snakes and I would feed them mice or rats. I didn't want the snakes to be injured by a live mouse or rat so I would have to disarticulate the rats spine at the head joint. Believe it or not the rat doesn't die immediately just as a person that is executed by hanging doesn't die immediately. What the disarticulated animal does is thrash around for a period of time and is unable to breathe. The inability to breathe is what ultimately kills that animal.

Now if Freddie Gray could not snap his own neck, how did it happen. Now there are some on this forum that claim to be special ops trained. Just a question...don't you get trained in how to disarticulate a neck? Why not just shoot the bad guy...oh...neck snapping is quieter. I get it!

Watch the video...Freddie Gray, for all his faults, was murdered by an angry cop...end of story! Now let us see if that "thin blue line" wants to remain the enemy of the citizens. Somebody knows who was capable of snapping a neck. The media is running with the story he was thrashing around and that is how it happened. Even Mark Fuhrman, of OJ fame, is putting that scenario forward. Now am I smarter than Furhman or is he lying through his teeth to protect his brethren.

Anyone recall Christopher Reeves, Superman dude. He was thrown from a horse he wanted to buy. He was jumping the horse...that means he was having the horse jump obstacles for those of you born in Rio Linda. The horse made an unexpected and abrupt stop. Reeves went over the front of the horse and snapped his neck when he hit the ground. Guess what? His major problem was he couldn't breathe. I suspect if they dragged him to the ambulance the same way Gray was dragged to the wagon you probably wouldn't see his feet move either and I would wager a bet that the EMTs would have to pick his limp legs up too in order to get him into the back of the ambulance. He probably had already done all his thrashing about by time the ambulance arrived. He was fitted with a ventilator for the rest of his life though.

Freddie Gray was not a nice person but he was murdered by a cop. We should demand action and accountability because evil will flourish where good folks do nothing. Who knows...the neck you save may be your own.

 

[JimPage]

I agree that it looks bad for the police regarding Gray. But I will wait for the courts to determine what happened. Too many factors are involved to jump to conclusions before all the facts are in. (It is not unusual for a person being arrested to go limp so it may not be so cut and dried for the cops. However, it doesn't look good for them. I still will await a full report)

At any rate, the rioting, looting, and destruction are not excusable.

 

[Bikenut]

What we should do is wait until we learn the facts, all the facts, concerning the incident before jumping to conclusions and/or running out to burn and loot.

 

[SR9]

Got something in an email the other day showing Freddie Gray has had 22 arrest since 2008. Mostly for distribution of drugs and narcotics, and other felonies. This leads me to believe when he saw the cops looking at him, he took off on his bike, because he may have been in possession of drugs at the time. Maybe he ditched them before he was caught. Im sure if we just reserve our judgement until the facts come out we will find the truth. As in Ferguson, Mo. when we found out Michael Brown was a righteous shooting.

Link Removed

 

[JimTh]

Why is this any different than ferguson where everyone on this forum jumped on the band wagon for the cop long before any facts were out? Just an observation!

 

[JimTh]

What we should do is wait until we learn the facts, all the facts, concerning the incident before jumping to conclusions and/or running out to burn and loot.

I don't think anyone is saying go burn and loot. What I am saying is stop this incessant stand by your man...err...cop. It is clear that freddie gray had his spinal chord severed from his brain stem before he was put in the wagon...it is clear unless your simply allow ignorance to trump your eyes. No body I know is saying that looting and burning and violence is the answer, but that is what you will get if the way cops treat citizens doesn't change...oh yes...freddie gray was a citizen, wasn't he?

 

[Bluestar99]

The one common thing that is present in everyone of these cases is that they all resisted in some way, and had prior criminal records. It would never occur to run or resist when approached by the Police. While no one should end up dead over being stopped or arrested there are things to do to avoid the Police having to use force, deadly or otherwise. The world has become much more dangerous very quickly. One or two generations ago this rarely happened. But being a Cop now days is far more then writing speeding tickets. You just never know when you will run up against someone that will resist or use violence against you.

 

[Bikenut]

I don't think anyone is saying go burn and loot. What I am saying is stop this incessant stand by your man...err...cop. It is clear that freddie gray had his spinal chord severed from his brain stem before he was put in the wagon...it is clear unless your simply allow ignorance to trump your eyes. No body I know is saying that looting and burning and violence is the answer, but that is what you will get if the way cops treat citizens doesn't change...oh yes...freddie gray was a citizen, wasn't he?

The reference to looting and burning was concerning the rioters who have jumped to the conclusion that the cops did something wrong so they are engaging in looting and burning. And riots with looting and burning is never the answer but to dismiss it as "what you will get if the way cops treat citizens doesn't change" not only validates violence but also considers the cops guilty before having all the facts.

Thing is... I suspect none of the rioters nor any of us posters are medically qualified to give a factual diagnosis of Freddie Gray's physical condition based on just a video. However .. we can indulge in supposition just like the TV commentators and even the rioters have but the truth is quite simple. The facts are not in yet and to jump to any conclusions based upon our own personal prejudices (either pro or anti cop) is less than constructive.

Just as I did during the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin debacle I'll wait until the facts are in before making any judgements or statements as to who did what wrong.

 

[vernsimpson]

There are to many who start building a gallows for any cop who is involved in anything. What ever happened to "Innocent until proven Guilty"? If any of you are ever involved in an incident I hope you do not receive the same kind of "justice" that you seem to give every cop.

I do not know what happened in Baltimore any more than any one else on this forum. But if you only know what the MSM is saying then I would not put much stock in them. How many times have we seen them get everything wrong from the git-go??? The MSM will ONLY show what fits with their version of what they WANT the story to be!!!

I will wait and see what the story is later. Ferguson was shown to be nothing like what MSM said it was. But we still have to many who will not accept the medical facts or anything else about it. Also I am not jumping on the cops bandwagon but I am not building a gallows either!!!

 

[BluesStringer]

Just as I did during the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin debacle I'll wait until the facts are in before making any judgements or statements as to who did what wrong.

I appreciate your attempt to maintain objectivity, but I'm curious about what you say here. At what point did you consider "the facts are in" regarding Zimmerman, and what was your judgment about who did what wrong? I'm sure I could find that last part if you ever said anything about it (which I honestly don't recall if you did or didn't), but I'm not trying to retry Zimmerman/Martin, but only trying to get a handle on when/if you'd be willing to concede that available evidence points one way or the other in the Gray case. Only after reviewing police reports? Only after the State's Attorney releases her recommendation to refer the case to a grand jury for indictment? Only after an indictment is brought? Or how about if we never get that far? Will you remain objective if it appears that, like most prosecutors, this one will not put her symbiotic relationship with cops on the line to prosecute, and all questions of controversy are left unanswered forevermore? Or is it only after a jury has rendered its verdict that you'd be willing to consider "all the facts in?"

The fact is, it is very rare that all the facts are disseminated to the public. At some point, a citizen just has to decide whether government is trustworthy enough to accept at face-value the processes they work within, many times manipulated in furtherance of their own personal and collective agendas, or if that same citizen is going to believe their own lying eyes.

With that in mind, I can find no fault with JimTH's analysis in his OP. Can you? (Go to 1:44 for the clip I believe Jim was basing his analysis on.)

 

[Bikenut]

Blues.....

"When the facts are in" to me means when the real story comes out. And in a case this prominent the real story will come out eventually either through the media (granted one has to sift through media reports) or through a trial.

However.... the video shows Freddie Gray standing under his own power at 2.23...

Did the cops do wrong? Did Freddie injure himself? Did he suffer a seizure like Heraldo said some doctor suggested could have caused the injury on Fox News just a little while ago? I don't know yet and, with all respect, I strongly suspect neither does anyone posting on this forum.

 

[JCliff]

At 2:23/2:24 on the video it certainly appears that Gray is largely supporting himself with his legs on the back of the truck. No way that the one officer who still has hands on him at that point could have held him that high up over his head by himself in that manner and be the sole support for all of Gray's body weight. Very brief look at that point and camera goes off him. That brief look is not much to go on, and does not answer with certainty whether or not he was already injured to some degree before going in the truck. You could certainly make an argument that he was presenting symptoms of trauma to the cervical spine by the apparent weakness in his legs. You could also make an argument that he was just being as uncooperative as possible. As to the contention that you can't break your own neck (JimTh), that's ridiculous. If you put your hands behind your back, and forcefully ram your head into a wall with your body weight behind you, there's more than enough energy to do damage to your cervical spine. Why would he have done this? Possibly in a rage (was he doped up? I don't know that either), possibly to make it look like he had been roughed up. The Baltimore PD does not enjoy a good reputation. Did he do this? I don't know.
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Regardless, the Baltimore PD is in a no win situation no matter what, and that situation was institutionally largely of their own making. Years of corruption means you will not be trusted...for good reason. Also the failure of the PD to obtain medical attention for Gray, or (at least as far as I know now) to even check up on him again when he said he needed help and medical attention, is damning in and of itself, even if the PD had nothing to do with causing his injury.

 

[Farmhood]

I say wait until more information is available but it does make you wonder especially after seeing that NFL quarterback headbutt the wall in the endzone a couple years ago.

Gus Frerotte...and then had to go to the hospital.

sinful nature is always hostile to God....

 

[SR9]

The medical examiners report has not been show yet and already we have Monday morning ME's concluding that he could not have done it himself. Lame!

 

[Quiet Observer]

“The sources quoted by the Washington-based station [CNNaffiliate WJLA] said the medical examiner had determined Gray's death wascaused by a catastrophic injury after he slammed into the back of the policetransport van while inside it, "apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van."
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/30/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-death-investigation/index.html

At this point, Friday afternoon Apr 30, the complete autopsyreport has not been released. It certainly will be evaluated by other pathologists and other forensic experts.

It is conceivable that launched himself into the rear of thevan in a fit of anger or to sustain injuries for which he planned to claim were the result of police brutally. The presence of leg restraints would not prevent him using his leg and hip muscles to propel himself. If the van suddenly accelerated at the same time, that would increase the velocity at which his head and metal door met. The acceleration could be theresult of traffic flow or the driver deciding to give him a rougher ride.

Testimony and forensic evaluations will like come up with other possible scenarios and conclusions.

 

[BluesStringer]

So if he "slammed himself into the back of the van," how is it that he wasn't seat-belted in a seat or on a bench? They stopped once to restrain his legs. Apparently no spinal injury at that stop, or else these oh-so-concerned-and-helpful cops would've certainly gotten him medical attention at that point, right? Uh huh.

What about the previously unreported stop that was caught on a security camera? First, why did it go unreported and, second, if he wasn't seatbelted in at the previous leg-restraing stop, why wasn't he seat-belted in there? Surely the guy we see in the arrest video wasn't capable of removing a seat-belt while handcuffed and leg-restrained, and even if he was, these oh-so-concerned-and-helpful cops had no less than four chances to secure him for his own safety. Oh, but it's probably just that the cops only had nine days to get used to a new cop-shop policy that mandates all prisoners be seat-belted and safety-secured while in the back of one of their paddy-wagons, so we'll just gloss over the fact that he couldn't have been trying to injure himself in the back (as if) unless the cops broke department policy in the first place. A few paid days off, then issue the guys riot gear and put 'em back on the street. I don't get that very many around here would have any major problem with that. What's the big deal? Haven't y'all heard? The guy had a rap sheet as long as your arm. Even if he didn't deserve it this time, he got what would've been coming to him eventually anyway.

Freddie Gray suffered fatal 'injury when he fell head first in police van' | Daily Mail Online

It is not known why the van stopped at the corner of North Fremont Ave and Mosher Street before it made another two stops then finally transported Gray to the hospital.

And police have yet to clarify why Gray would have been standing without a seat belt on. Just nine days before his arrest, the Baltimore Police Department issued a new policy, making it obligatory to belt all inmates placed in the back of a transport van.​

I'm also sure there's nothing to worry about at all concerning the driver of the van who has refused to give a statement to investigators yet. Couldn't be that he's already taking the 5th, making sure he doesn't say something in a report or interview that he may get impeached by when other evidence contradicts his story, right? Riiiight. Let's just wait patiently while this all plays out behind closed doors, and then y'all can go after me and Chen and JimTH and whomever else deigns to believe our lyin' eyes when, just like the brutes who killed Eric Garner, these cops are exonerated without a single bit of evidence ever being tested the constitutional way - in an intentionally adversarial trial.

More and more, Americans make me sick.

Blues
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[Deanimator]

So if he "slammed himself into the back of the van," how is it that he wasn't seat-belted in a seat or on a bench?

This is starting to take on a rather Stalinesque tone on the the part of the police.

The claim that he killed HIMSELF, the "witness" who didn't actually see anything (and who stood to gain from saying what the cops wanted to hear), the secrecy, all combine to turn back the clock to 1938.

I'm sure that Obama gets all hot and giggly at the thought of being able to get rid of Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio and Rand Paul the way Kamenev, Zinoviev and Bukharin were "liquidated" after the assassination of Kirov...

 

[BluesStringer]

I think the atmosphere in America has been Stalin-esque since at least Ruby Ridge and Waco. Probably well before then when I was either paying less attention, or just not plugged in to what was happening in different regions of the country that I didn't live in.

I draw no distinctions between government overreach that happens in white rural areas or black urban areas, nor anywhere in between either of those demographic groups/areas. Chris Dorner proved that cops will cover all types of areas/racial makeups to impose their brutality across nearly half of one of the largest states in the Union.

BTW, I heard a report that both GM and the company who installs the paddy-wagon partitions in the vans released a joint statement saying that no bolts are exposed in the back of any of the paddy-wagons they sell and/or install add-ons in.

I don't know why anyone thinks the head-injury-by-bolt story is significant anyway. Gray didn't die from a head injury. He died from spinal injuries.

 

[zeebea]

From the videos I have seen gray was damaged when the cops were dragging him to the wagon. I don't want to tie the hands of cops trying to do there duty but it seems they have been given a very long leash lately.

Sent from my SM-N900V using USA Carry mobile app

 

[BluesStringer]

I'm also sure there's nothing to worry about at all concerning the driver of the van who has refused to give a statement to investigators yet. Couldn't be that he's already taking the 5th, making sure he doesn't say something in a report or interview that he may get impeached by when other evidence contradicts his story, right? Riiiight.

2nd Degree Murder charge for the above-mentioned driver. Didn't take a genius to figure out that his silence was indicative of his knowledge that his lack of attention to an obviously injured prisoner might meet the relatively low threshold in MD of "depraved heart" being the only basis required for 2nd degree murder.

The press conference by the prosecutor sounded like the final stanzas of a closing argument. Also remarkable was the finding that the cops were in the wrong from the very beginning, before they ever caught up to Gray. Her office has found that there was no probable cause to even contact the guy, much less arrest him or take him violently to the ground or give him a "rough ride" or anything. Every officer involved in the arrest and transport of Freddie Gray is being charged with multiple felonies by a prosecutor with five generations-deep of law enforcement in her own personal family history.

Hell may not have frozen over, but it's a degree or two chillier down there today.

Blues