Point shooting

[stratsrock]

So how about index finger placement?

 

[apvbguy]

I've been point shooting for years. 3-5-7 yard line is the accepted norm. Not saying sighting your target is not correct. What I am saying is that when the SHTF, you should be able to draw and fire as soon as the weapon clears the holster. Second round should be rapidly fired following the first round. (double tap to some) By the time your arm is fully extended is when you'll evaluate and repeat if necessary to repeat a two round burst. At that time if needed you can use your sights. (PLEASE ALL THAT READ THIS THREAD-don't berate me with multiple scenarios where this will not work. I'm speaking in generalities.) Or not use your sights depending on the intervention you've been drawn into. I never say NEVER but I NEVER train at the 3-5-7 yard line using my sights. If I have to engage, I won't have the time to aim. We're really talking 10ths of seconds most of the time. Any longer amount of time and I'll call the LEO's to handle, NOT my engagement. I can walk away.
This is my humble opinion. Take it for what you want.

unlike some of the self appointed experts around here you get it

 

[2Awarrior]

We're really talking 10ths of seconds most of the time. Any longer amount of time and I'll call the LEO's to handle, NOT my engagement. I can walk away.

This may sound like I'm baiting an argument, but I'm sincere when I say I'm learning from this thread, and that part of what you said confused me a bit - I have this funny vision in my mind like you're evaluating the threat, then look at your watch and go, "Whoops, we're at 7/10ths of a second, I'm outta here...", and then spend the rest of that second phoning the cops.
I'm certain that's not what you meant. Could you clarify?

 

[apvbguy]

This may sound like I'm baiting an argument, but I'm sincere when I say I'm learning from this thread, and that part of what you said confused me a bit - I have this funny vision in my mind like you're evaluating the threat, then look at your watch and go, "Whoops, we're at 7/10ths of a second, I'm outta here...", and then spend the rest of that second phoning the cops.
I'm certain that's not what you meant. Could you clarify?

in the real world things can happen very quickly

 

[mappow]

This may sound like I'm baiting an argument, but I'm sincere when I say I'm learning from this thread, and that part of what you said confused me a bit - I have this funny vision in my mind like you're evaluating the threat, then look at your watch and go, "Whoops, we're at 7/10ths of a second, I'm outta here...", and then spend the rest of that second phoning the cops.
I'm certain that's not what you meant. Could you clarify?

Any longer amount of time means that it's not critical that I engage and I'll call the LEO's.

 

[Eidolon]

Any longer amount of time means that it's not critical that I engage and I'll call the LEO's.

Not a bad rule so long as it's not set in stone.

 

[stratsrock]

So how about index finger placement?

So, does anyone point shoot with your index finger along the side of the firearm pointing at the target using your middle finger as the trigger finger?

 

[Eidolon]

So, does anyone point shoot with your index finger along the side of the firearm pointing at the target using your middle finger as the trigger finger?

I don't. In my opinion messing around with different grips is asking for trouble hold your gun one way and practice that one way

 

[apvbguy]

So, does anyone point shoot with your index finger along the side of the firearm pointing at the target using your middle finger as the trigger finger?

I don't

 

[stratsrock]

I don't. In my opinion messing around with different grips is asking for trouble hold your gun one way and practice that one way

I agree. Index finger along the side with middle as trigger finger is cumbersome on the draw stroke.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I've been point shooting for years. 3-5-7 yard line is the accepted norm. Not saying sighting your target is not correct. What I am saying is that when the SHTF, you should be able to draw and fire as soon as the weapon clears the holster. Second round should be rapidly fired following the first round. (double tap to some) By the time your arm is fully extended is when you'll evaluate and repeat if necessary to repeat a two round burst. At that time if needed you can use your sights. (PLEASE ALL THAT READ THIS THREAD-don't berate me with multiple scenarios where this will not work. I'm speaking in generalities.) Or not use your sights depending on the intervention you've been drawn into. I never say NEVER but I NEVER train at the 3-5-7 yard line using my sights. If I have to engage, I won't have the time to aim. We're really talking 10ths of seconds most of the time. Any longer amount of time and I'll call the LEO's to handle, NOT my engagement. I can walk away.
This is my humble opinion. Take it for what you want.

Curious, would you have used point shooting if you were in the aurora Colorado movie theatre? If you were in Libby's diner? If you were unlucky enough to be 25 feet directly in front of the Clackamas Town Center shooter?

Point shooting definitely holds its place, ie Zimmerman, but there are too many other possibilities in life.

Link Removed than the world champion Bob Vogel open carrying , no one is making fun of practicing, point shooting, or brandishing. In reality, not some fantasy, there are limitless possibilities.

As Eidolon said, I hope that's not set in stone, because that pebble misrepresents the boulders of danger out there.

As for generalities, life is too complicated to generalize it. I gave three specific scenarios that did occur in our world. So, maybe these real world scenarios are what you didn't want to be berated with, that's fine don't think about them, but for everyone else reading these forums, I hope you keep them in mind.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[farsidefan1]

I have looked at the quick kill method of point shoot and may still go to Arizona to take a class but in the mean time my kids gave me a SIRT gun for Christmas. 2 lasers,one (red) when you begin to squeeze the trigger and a second one (green) at the point of trigger break. I turned off the red one as I don't want it to be a crutch in aiming. For the last couple of weeks i have been "shooting" everything in the house. It is amazing what a difference a thousand or so shots can make in increased accuracy. I keep both eyes open and while I will still use the sights over 20 feet I feel confident of 6 inch groups out to 7 meters. I have been to the range a couple of times to see how well it translates. It translates very well.

 

[apvbguy]

I have looked at the quick kill method of point shoot and may still go to Arizona to take a class but in the mean time my kids gave me a SIRT gun for Christmas. 2 lasers,one (red) when you begin to squeeze the trigger and a second one (green) at the point of trigger break. I turned off the red one as I don't want it to be a crutch in aiming. For the last couple of weeks i have been "shooting" everything in the house. It is amazing what a difference a thousand or so shots can make in increased accuracy. I keep both eyes open and while I will still use the sights over 20 feet I feel confident of 6 inch groups out to 7 meters. I have been to the range a couple of times to see how well it translates. It translates very well.

do yourself a favor and forsake the lasers for the training, once you have been trained you'll understand my disdain for the lasers

 

[the dark]

do yourself a favor and forsake the lasers for the training, once you have been trained you'll understand my disdain for the lasers

Far too cryptic-if you have a point, make it so folks don't have to take your word for it.

 

[apvbguy]

relying on sights or lasers in a SD encounter is a sure way to be the loser in that encounter

 

[Rhino]

I also don’t think it’s written in stone that using the sights will get you killed, I think it’s very situational.
What I do think will get you killed is vacillating between should I aim or not. I’ve trained both ways and I can hit both ways but I get better hits aiming.

There's lots of great info on 'how' in here, but this paragraph actually points out the 'why', which is critical to addressing the original post in this thread. By pointing out that it's situational, you've nailed it exactly. The problem is, too many people fail to take all of the possible situations into account. Many people never even bother to investigate self defense scenarios as they relate to what tactics should be used and practiced. For most that do, they typically discover the commonly discussed adage that most self defense shootings occur at a range of 21 feet or less. But how they interpret that statistic, and how they apply it situational to devise effective training, is where many fall short.

Many people hear the 21 foot statistic and assume if they have good aim at 21 feet, then the rest will be good. That can be a fatal mistake, and it very likely has been for someone at some point. Most people assume it's axiomatic that it's harder to hit a target at greater distances and easier at shorter distances. If all targets were the same and all shooting situations were the same, that would be true. But those situations and targets aren't the same when it comes to self defense. It's actually harder to shoot someone closer to you when shooting in self defense because you have less time to draw before contact with your attacker, sometimes only being able to draw after physical contact has already been made. That's why when using the 'simply 21 foot' target theory, shooters are putting themselves at an extreme disadvantage. They aren't thinking situational because their practice covers only an attacker at 21 feet that doesn't move. Big mistake.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with sight shooting. I practice it all the time. But we have to realize that all self defense scenarios don't happen with a stationary target at 21 feet where we'll be able to easily line up our sights. To train for all possible scenarios, and indeed even the likely ones, then point shooting should be part of your repertoire. Ever heard of the Tueller drill? Even the stationary target at 21 feet can reach you in as little as two seconds. Can you recognize the threat, draw from concealment and line up your sights in less than two seconds? And recall that the Tueller drill involved police officers using open holsters, not concealment holsters. There was no impediment to their access or draw of their firearm like we would have as concealed carriers. And the Tueller drill also involved police officers already facing a known threat. They knew the attack was coming. We very likely wouldn't have that kind of warning. Still think you shouldn't know point shooting in addition to using your sights? It isn't a matter of vacillating between aiming or not. It's a matter of knowing and practicing both skills that could be critical to saving your life. This isn't an either/or proposition. It's like asking whether you should learn to drive a car in forward or reverse. Do both. It may save your life.

EDIT: My typing stinks.

 

[Eidolon]

relying on sights or lasers in a SD encounter is a sure way to be the loser in that encounter

First question have you ever been in a "self defense encounter" ? If not you are merely stating your untested opinion. I've survived a fight or two if you haven't don't tell me how it's done

Second I believe the poster you responded to was talking about a training gun that uses a laser to simulate round placement

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

anyone who uses their sites in a SD encounter is a statistic in waiting
work on your point shooting and learn how to shoot from a retention position

I chatted up one of our LEO relatives at the family Christmas party and he said the same thing. "Move/draw, point, press, pray".

 

[wolf_fire]

Point shooting definitely has its place in your arsenal of training. Since statistically most encounters will be at very close distances, one should train how to defend against someone within very close proximity to you. (if you are needing actually evidence of this, I'll provide it, I just don't feel like looking for the site now)

However, just with every type of training, that training may or may not be the best method to use in your particular situation.

One should, in combination with one's training, research different scenarios and question what the best method of defending one's self would be in that situation. Firefighterchen... you brought up several good examples where point shooting would not have been prudent. Rhino... you brought up a great problem some people have when training using the Tueller Drill. Just because the BG starts at 21 feet away, it does not mean that is where he will be when you've finally drawn your firearm. In fact, it's generally much much closer and if not, then he's on top of you. At this point, you have to figure a way to evade and deploy your firearm. Evading could mean anything from stepping aside, to strong arming them to the side.

It's naive to train for "one type of encounter". You have no idea, if you are involved in an encounter, what it is you will be confronted with. So, it is best to arm yourself with the training to handle a variety of encounters.

 

[kelcarry]

Curious, would you have used point shooting if you were in the aurora Colorado movie theatre? If you were in Libby's diner? If you were unlucky enough to be 25 feet directly in front of the Clackamas Town Center shooter?

Point shooting definitely holds its place, ie Zimmerman, but there are too many other possibilities in life.

Link Removed than the world champion Bob Vogel open carrying , no one is making fun of practicing, point shooting, or brandishing. In reality, not some fantasy, there are limitless possibilities.

As Eidolon said, I hope that's not set in stone, because that pebble misrepresents the boulders of danger out there.

As for generalities, life is too complicated to generalize it. I gave three specific scenarios that did occur in our world. So, maybe these real world scenarios are what you didn't want to be berated with, that's fine don't think about them, but for everyone else reading these forums, I hope you keep them in mind.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

Agree with this. Just look at the video in Reply 10 from the movie Collateral Damage--that is classic point shooting defense. May be a little too Hollywood, and I doubt if many of us are going to draw on someone who already has a firearm aimed at you, but the point (no pun intended) is that it involves that kind of quick close up response, where sights mean absolutely nothing.