Las Vegas Shooting, CCW carrier may have been involved

[aacx22]

The loss of life is certainly tragic but if the cc'er did exchange shots with the BG's forcing them to self expire and possibly saving others at the cost of his own life the media will never give him credit for it.

It didn't happen that way. He was approaching the male and didn't see the female who shot him in the back.

 

[BigSlick]

It didn't happen that way. He was approaching the male and didn't see the female who shot him in the back.

I see that. When I posted, very little information was available which was the reason for the "if". I also read in one report that Sheriff Doug Gillespie was giving credit to Joseph Wilcox, the cc'er and that Joseph died trying to protect others. He could have ran out like everyone else but he tried to make a difference. I hope the media doesn't forget that. There were many witnesses to this tragic event and I am sure more is to come in the following days.

 

[BC1]

They are also reporting that the couple spent time at the Bundy Siege, and I heard that as well on Faux News this morning, as well as they said that they covered the dead cops with a Gadsden Flag (Don't Tread On Me Flag). I hope neither of these reports are true, and if they are, it's going to raise the specter of a false flag attack coming from the Patriot Movement. Not so sure that won't happen in either case, but for sure if Patriot symbols were used, the accusation will arise. Hold on, here we go again....

Blues

So much for my tattoo. I guess now I'm the enemy.

 

[mappow]

The insanity continues............At least one person stood up to defend. Unfortunately he died trying to engage. LOTS here to see to help you understand training, more training and again more training. Situational awareness is NOT just about the threat but those around the event unfolding.
GOD Bless Joseph Robert Wilcox for engaging to help in innocents being slaughtered.

 

[tcox4freedom]

I heard on one of the MSM news shows (About 30min ago on ABC I think), that the cwp holder did actually shoot the man one time before he was gunned down. This (according to the report I saw), prompted the woman to help her husband to the back storage area of the store. Police then came and engaged in a short gun battle before the woman shot her husband several more time (5 or 6 I believe the report said). He didn't have the guts to kill himself, his wife did it for him. Then, she turned her own firearm on herself.

 

[Peggy Reist]

Here's a very short item on the concealed carrier:

BREAKING: Concealed Carrier Stops Las Vegas Shooters... Media Ignores Him

 

[Rhino]

I heard on one of the MSM news shows (About 30min ago on ABC I think), that the cwp holder did actually shoot the man one time before he was gunned down. This (according to the report I saw), prompted the woman to help her husband to the back storage area of the store. Police then came and engaged in a short gun battle before the woman shot her husband several more time (5 or 6 I believe the report said). He didn't have the guts to kill himself, his wife did it for him. Then, she turned her own firearm on herself.

Doesn't jibe with what the police are saying.
.

“He had no idea the wife was walking behind him,” the police official said of the slain man. “This guy (Wilcox) was not some idiot with a gun. To me, he was a hero. He was trying to stop an active shooter.”
.
Police said this morning that Wilcox was killed without firing a shot....

Shooters carried arsenal, supplies into Sunday rampage | Las Vegas Review-Journal
.
More on Wilcox:
.

Joseph Robert Wilcox wasn’t one for the limelight.
.
And yet the 31-year-old Las Vegan is being heralded as a hero for giving his life while trying to stop Jerad and Amanda Miller in the midst of their shooting spree in the northeast valley late Sunday morning.
.
After executing two Las Vegas police officers at a CiCi’s pizza, Jerad Miller entered a nearby Wal-Mart, at Nellis Boulevard and Stewart Avenue, fired a round in the air and ordered everyone to leave, setting off a panic.
.
It was at that point, instead of running, Wilcox approached Jerad Miller from behind.
.
Law enforcement sources said Wilcox, who had a concealed weapons permit and carried a handgun, was ready to “end it” when Amanda Miller, who was behind Wilcox, shot and killed him....

Uncle mourns nephew killed while trying to stop shooting spree | Las Vegas Review-Journal

 

[BluesStringer]

As to the Bundy Ranch "connection" with these whack-jobs, here's what Mike Vanderboegh has to say about it. Maybe some of y'all will recall that Mike was there, and others who read Sipsey Street Irregulars regularly may recall also that it was on Mike's recommendation that the couple was turned away. Anyway, here's Mike's thoughts:

Monday, June 9, 2014
​

The Las Vegas Shooters and the Bundys.

​

Just got off the phone with Jerry Delemus, the head of the outer security operation the day that these folks were turned away. These people looked to me like the couple we turned away and Jerry confirmed it. He is positive on the ID. Based on the first images i saw, I was initially hesitant to make a positive ID, although they looked a lot like the folks I remembered. But both Jerry and Stewart Rhodes of Oath Keepers got a better look the pair of them than I did and while I haven't been able to reach Stewart, Jerry is convinced.

Thus, although they had been down below at the "fruits and nuts" camp for a couple of days (at least since the 14th) and had been interviewed by the media, the interview was done on the property (not owned by the Bundys) below the outer security area where we were a couple of days later when they ventured up to volunteer. The important thing, since the media are already tarring the Bundys with the "association" is:

a. The two of them never got on the Bundy property (not even the outer security camp was on Bundy property).

b. To my knowledge they never met the Bundys.

c. On my recommendation, they were turned away by both Jerry & Stewart.

If the media wishes to make the "Bundy connection" with that set of facts, they are simply parroting a regime narrative absent reality.

Posted by Dutchman6 at 4:57 PM
​

Now, y'all may also be interested in what Mike had to say about the whack-jobs after he got home and wrote up his critique of the whole affair. That write-up is here, just the relevant part about the whack-jobs quoted below:

Example: One afternoon a couple showed up at the camp: a young tattooed white male wearing a holstered pistol and his girlfriend toting a shotgun. In the entrance interviews, which Jerry insisted upon mostly conducting himself, it developed that the guy was an admitted felon, but he didn't believe that it was constitutional to deny him his firearm rights. This came with a long, sad story about how they had quit their jobs to volunteer for the Bundys and do their part. Both Jerry and Stewart were inclined to accept their help until I called them over and explained the ramifications of accepting a self-admitted, armed felon into camp. They were impressed by the man's "honesty and sincerity," in admitting up-front that he was a felon. I said, among other things, that of course he admitted it. If he hadn't, then they would have plausible deniability when later confronted about it. By stating it up front, it was actually worse for them because they could not later deny having known that fact.* "How do you think that is going to sound in the grand jury?" I asked them. They changed their minds and sent the couple on their way with gas money. I am convinced that neither man would have needed any assistance from me to take that decision had they been in their right minds. That is, if they had been even semi-rested and on the bounce, which commanders must be to the best of their ability if they are to carry out their solemn duty to do their best to take care of their people and execute the mission.

*NOTE: Throughout my stay at Bunkerville I gave a lot of advice to men and women for whom this was their first rodeo. Among the most often repeated (second, I think only behind my constant harping to get more sleep) was the old Marine intelligence officer's dictum when dealing with sources -- "Why is this SOB telling me this, and why is he telling me this NOW?"
​

Now, if it's not coming through to y'all that Mike was concerned with these two being some kind of infiltrators or false flag purveyors, well, that definitely is what he was worried about. Even if it just turns out that they were nothing more or less than plain ol' whack-jobs, Mike's instincts were right on point.

In any case, they never made it onto the Bundy property, so any claimed "connection" between the wackos and the Bundys is made up out of whole clothe.

Blues

 

[tcox4freedom]

Doesn't jibe with what the police are saying.
.
Shooters carried arsenal, supplies into Sunday rampage | Las Vegas Review-Journal
.
More on Wilcox:
.
Uncle mourns nephew killed while trying to stop shooting spree | Las Vegas Review-Journal

The latest I heard didn't say Wilcox got a shot off either. But, like most stories, it may be a couple more days to get everything sorted out. So, I take most of the initial stories with a grain of salt. (Esp. those trying to make a connection to the Bundy Ranch.)


One thing is for sure, MSM doesn't want to publish any "positives" about a CC'er using a gun to save lives unless they just don't have a choice. At least somebody was willing to step up to save someone else.


-

 

[bernardbarker]

Joseph Wilcox was a real Hero, one of the decent people who support gun ownership and possessing the courage to step up and do the right thing when confronted by violent criminals without apparently being a right wing extremist or religious fanatic. I applaud his bravery and would wish that I could have the courage to do the same in a similar situation. Thankfully the thugs who killed the two innocent Police Officers were cowardly enough to take their own lives. His Uncle said:


“He wasn’t political,” Wilson said. “But he definitely believed in the right to bear arms and the right to defend yourself and others.” Wilson choked back tears and emotion — “It comes and goes,” he said — while speaking about his nephew. “He basically… he heard the threat to everyone and he was trying to stop it,” Wilson said. “He wasn’t trying to be a hero. He was trying to do what he thought should be done. “

 

[ezkl2230]

As to the Bundy Ranch "connection" with these whack-jobs, here's what Mike Vanderboegh has to say about it. Maybe some of y'all will recall that Mike was there, and others who read Sipsey Street Irregulars regularly may recall also that it was on Mike's recommendation that the couple was turned away. Anyway, here's Mike's thoughts:


Monday, June 9, 2014

The Las Vegas Shooters and the Bundys.

​

Just got off the phone with Jerry Delemus, the head of the outer security operation the day that these folks were turned away. These people looked to me like the couple we turned away and Jerry confirmed it. He is positive on the ID. Based on the first images i saw, I was initially hesitant to make a positive ID, although they looked a lot like the folks I remembered. But both Jerry and Stewart Rhodes of Oath Keepers got a better look the pair of them than I did and while I haven't been able to reach Stewart, Jerry is convinced.

Thus, although they had been down below at the "fruits and nuts" camp for a couple of days (at least since the 14th) and had been interviewed by the media, the interview was done on the property (not owned by the Bundys) below the outer security area where we were a couple of days later when they ventured up to volunteer. The important thing, since the media are already tarring the Bundys with the "association" is:

a. The two of them never got on the Bundy property (not even the outer security camp was on Bundy property).

b. To my knowledge they never met the Bundys.

c. On my recommendation, they were turned away by both Jerry & Stewart.

If the media wishes to make the "Bundy connection" with that set of facts, they are simply parroting a regime narrative absent reality.

Posted by Dutchman6 at 4:57 PM
​

Now, y'all may also be interested in what Mike had to say about the whack-jobs after he got home and wrote up his critique of the whole affair. That write-up is here, just the relevant part about the whack-jobs quoted below:

Example: One afternoon a couple showed up at the camp: a young tattooed white male wearing a holstered pistol and his girlfriend toting a shotgun. In the entrance interviews, which Jerry insisted upon mostly conducting himself, it developed that the guy was an admitted felon, but he didn't believe that it was constitutional to deny him his firearm rights. This came with a long, sad story about how they had quit their jobs to volunteer for the Bundys and do their part. Both Jerry and Stewart were inclined to accept their help until I called them over and explained the ramifications of accepting a self-admitted, armed felon into camp. They were impressed by the man's "honesty and sincerity," in admitting up-front that he was a felon. I said, among other things, that of course he admitted it. If he hadn't, then they would have plausible deniability when later confronted about it. By stating it up front, it was actually worse for them because they could not later deny having known that fact.* "How do you think that is going to sound in the grand jury?" I asked them. They changed their minds and sent the couple on their way with gas money. I am convinced that neither man would have needed any assistance from me to take that decision had they been in their right minds. That is, if they had been even semi-rested and on the bounce, which commanders must be to the best of their ability if they are to carry out their solemn duty to do their best to take care of their people and execute the mission.

*NOTE: Throughout my stay at Bunkerville I gave a lot of advice to men and women for whom this was their first rodeo. Among the most often repeated (second, I think only behind my constant harping to get more sleep) was the old Marine intelligence officer's dictum when dealing with sources -- "Why is this SOB telling me this, and why is he telling me this NOW?"
​

Now, if it's not coming through to y'all that Mike was concerned with these two being some kind of infiltrators or false flag purveyors, well, that definitely is what he was worried about. Even if it just turns out that they were nothing more or less than plain ol' whack-jobs, Mike's instincts were right on point.

In any case, they never made it onto the Bundy property, so any claimed "connection" between the wackos and the Bundys is made up out of whole clothe.

Blues

And here are two statements from Oath Keepers:

My fellow Americans,

Jerad and Amanda Miller, were NOT members of the Oath Keepers.


They were Nazis. The EXACT opposite of our ideals.


They were KICKED off the Bundy Ranch by the militia personnel. Because Jared was a FELON.


We do NOT support their actions.


What they committed, were multiple acts of premeditated murder.


That is all I have at the moment. But I wanted to get ahead of the government-media narrative. Before they spin this horrendous act, and attempt to pin it on the patriot movement.


I pray for the families of these innocent and fallen law enforcement officers.


In God's name.


Amen.


Sincerely,
Robert Hase

Dear Facebook trolls,

Jared and Amanda Miller are to the patriot movement, what Christopher Dorner/Nidal Hasan/Willam Ayers/Malik Zulu Shabazz/James Holmes/George Lincoln Rockwell/Margaret Sanger/Joseph Stalin are to the progressive/liberal/communist/socialist movement.


Now obviously, Jared and Amanda Miller were not patriots. They were psychopaths. But I hope all of you get the point. Each side has their extremists. But the left tends to forget their own.


So PLEASE, clean up your own backyard. BEFORE you start pointing fingers and blaming the patriot movement.


Thank you,
Robert Hase

 

[nogods]

Well, at least you got the first part right. The fact that criminals prefer unarmed victims and will make an effort to avoid armed victims whenever possible has been proven many times in scholarly research.

No it has not. The facts prove otherwise and continual assertion of such nonsense is impinges on the credibility of the 2A community and inhibits the efforts to advance 2A rights. Those who claim such nonsense are laughed out of the political, social, and legal discourses on the issues.

The victims in Las Vegas were all armed.

 

[BC1]

Dear Facebook trolls,

Jared and Amanda Miller are to the patriot movement, what Christopher Dorner/Nidal Hasan/Willam Ayers/Malik Zulu Shabazz/James Holmes/George Lincoln Rockwell/Margaret Sanger/Joseph Stalin are to the progressive/liberal/communist/socialist movement.


Now obviously, Jared and Amanda Miller were not patriots. They were psychopaths. But I hope all of you get the point. Each side has their extremists. But the left tends to forget their own.


So PLEASE, clean up your own backyard. BEFORE you start pointing fingers and blaming the patriot movement.


Thank you,
Robert Hase

Correction... while the violent types aren't part of our world, Bill Ayres is a very important terrorist to the liberals. And throw-in Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Father Michael Pfleger for good measure.

 

[BC1]

No it has not. The facts prove otherwise and continual assertion of such nonsense is impinges on the credibility of the 2A community and inhibits the efforts to advance 2A rights. Those who claim such nonsense are laughed out of the political, social, and legal discourses on the issues.

YES IT HAS. I have to disagree as I've read a lot on this subject. I'm shocked you would make that statement without checking. A survey of inmates who had committed robbery and burglary found that they were deterred by an armed victim, dogs and the possibility of an alarm. It was easier for them to find someone else.
.
A survey of imprisoned felons conducted by Professors James D. Wright and Peter H. Rossi of the University of Massachusetts studied 1874 inmates in 10 state prisons.
.
- 81% of inmates said they would try to determine if the victim was armed.
- 74% stated they would not enter occupied buildings for fear of being shot.
- 57% said they feared armed victims MORE than the police.
- 40% said they had been deterred from committing a specific crime because they believed the potential victim was armed.
- 57% said they encountered armed victims while committing a crime.
- 34% said they were shot-at, wounded or captured by an armed citizen.
.
Wright and Rossi wrote several books and reports discussing the results of their study. These are cited by the Department of Justice in over 600 articles.
.
- "Under the Gun, Weapons, Crime and violence in America" - Link Removed
- "The Armed Criminal in America" - https://www.ncjrs.gov/app/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=97099
- "Armed and Considered Dangerous; A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms" - Link Removed

 

[whodat2710]

Updated article and a cautionary tale:
Link Removed
For all you anti OC, adamantly CC, "element of surprise" people - Yes a CC'er tried to help. The CC'er didn't have the big picture or all the facts. The CC'er never got off a shot.

 

[12Roses]

YES IT HAS. I have to disagree as I've read a lot on this subject. I'm shocked you would make that statement without checking. A survey of inmates who had committed robbery and burglary found that they were deterred by an armed victim, dogs and the possibility of an alarm. It was easier for them to find someone else.
.
A survey of imprisoned felons conducted by Professors James D. Wright and Peter H. Rossi of the University of Massachusetts studied 1874 inmates in 10 state prisons.
.
- 81% of inmates said they would try to determine if the victim was armed.
- 74% stated they would not enter occupied buildings for fear of being shot.
- 57% said they feared armed victims MORE than the police.
- 40% said they had been deterred from committing a specific crime because they believed the potential victim was armed.
- 57% said they encountered armed victims while committing a crime.
- 34% said they were shot-at, wounded or captured by an armed citizen.
.
Wright and Rossi wrote several books and reports discussing the results of their study. These are cited by the Department of Justice in over 600 articles.
.
- "Under the Gun, Weapons, Crime and violence in America" - Link Removed
- "The Armed Criminal in America" - https://www.ncjrs.gov/app/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=97099
- "Armed and Considered Dangerous; A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms" - Link Removed

Generally I think that is true of 99% of criminals you will run into, but the fear that dissuades them is usually related to the fact that they want to continue to live. It's much harder to account for the thoughts and actions of someone on a suicide mission with no fear of consequence. It's a bad idea to assume you know what a criminal is thinking about in general in my opinion.

The best we can do is be prepared, and I am so grateful to this man for stepping in and maybe distracting the BGs so that the rest of the customers could flee to safety. I think it is only a matter of time though before the antis seize this to carry on the "CCers are delusional about being able to save themselves or others." theme they have going.

 

[Rhino]

No it has not. The facts prove otherwise and continual assertion of such nonsense is impinges on the credibility of the 2A community and inhibits the efforts to advance 2A rights. Those who claim such nonsense are laughed out of the political, social, and legal discourses on the issues.

LOL! You go ahead and keep deluding yourself that way if you want to. The research has been cited on this site many times before.
.

The victims in Las Vegas were all armed.

I never said they weren't. Had you simply said that this wasn't a gun free zone argument, you would have been correct because these shootings didn't take place in one as far as I'm aware. But you were incorrect in saying that criminals don't prefer unarmed victims and that they don't tend to avoid them whenever possible. And as I said, scholarly research has been pointing that out for a long time.
.

We asked the sample a number of follow-up questions about
encountering armed victims, findings from which are
reported in this section. We cover two main topics:
first, we consider evidence from the survey on whether
an encounter with an armed victim is something about
which felons worried in the course of committing
crimes; and second, how frequently armed victims were
encountered during the felons' criminal careers.24
.
Results from the attitudinal questions are shown in
Table 15. There is a very consistent pattern to the
results; in all cases, the majority opinion was that
felons are made nervous by the prospect of an encounter
with an armed victim.
.
The first item in the sequence asked the sample to
agree or disagree that "a criminal is not going to
mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a
gun." About three-fifths of the sample (5696) agreed.
Another item read, "A smart criminal always tries to
find out if his potential victim is armed." !1/Iore than
four-fifths ( 8196) agreed with that. Yet another item
read, "Most criminals are more worried about meeting
an armed victim than they are about running into the
police." About three-fifths ( 5796) also agreed with
that.25
.
There were also two direct questions on whether guns
thwart crimes. One reads, "One reason burglars avoid
houses when people are at home is that they fear being
shot during the crime." Three-quarters of the sample
(7496) agreed. (Of course, there are other reasons for
avoiding occupied homes, such as fear of being reported
to the police, about which we did not ask).
The other reads, "A store owner who is known to keep a
gun on the premises is not going to get robbed very
often." About three-fifths ( 5896) again agreed. The
possibility that one's intended victim is armed was
evidently a concern to most of these men: the strong
majority agreed that it is wise to find out in advance
if one's potential victims are armed, and to avoid
them if they are.

National Institute of Justice
US Department of Justice
Office of Justice Programs
.
Armed Criminal in America - A Survey of Incarcerated Felons
James D. Wright ; Peter H. Rossi
University of Massachusetts
Social and Demographic Research Institute, 1985
.
US Dept of Justice NIJ Publication
NCJ 097099
.
That's just one, and it goes back a lot farther than 1985, but you know how to use Google, so I'm not going to do all the work for you. There's a lot of really good stuff that's newer though. I did a practice thesis on this stuff in college.

 

[mappow]

Correction... while the violent types aren't part of our world.[/QUOTE]
NOT being disrespectful or belligerent BUT violent types are here and have always been here. Hence why I carry cocked & locked.
I hope I did not mis-understand your post.

 

[Peggy Reist]

Latest word to be confirmed is that the male shooter was killed by police rather than by his wife like the police reported. Apparently they simply lied about it.

 

[whodat2710]

The story I posted in #35 above didn't draw the comments I thought it might. I figure people just didn't read it. So here's the readers digest version:
-
The CC guy in Wal-Mart pulls his gun to save the day, but he thinks the crazy guy is the only bad guy - so the crazy lady sees him draw the gun and takes him out before he gets a shot off.
Here's another link:Shooters carried arsenal, supplies into Sunday rampage | Las Vegas Review-Journal

Once the two entered the Wal-Mart, Crazy Guy fired a single shot and repeated his call for revolution.

Wilcox, 31, was near the cash registers when he saw events unfolding. He was armed with gun of his own, and told a friend he was going to do something.

As he moved to confront Crazy Guy, Wilcox passed Crazy Lady, not realizing the two were together. She slipped behind Wilcox and shot him at close range.

I edited out the names of the two criminals.
-
Since he was the only non-cop killed, shouldn't he have just stayed the hell out of it until he was more aware of what was going on? This supports the argument that my gun is to DEFEND myself and family, not to be the "hero" by getting the drop on the bad guys.